How would you play this scenario?

Alright, how would you attack this table in terms of your betting spread/ramp and any other info you'd like to give: $2,000 bankroll. 2 deck game. $10 minimum. Call it 60% penetration. Good rules (S17, DAS, RSA). No surrender.

What would you do?

Depends what other options there are (including building a bankroll) or what's worth my time. Some may play a $20/hour game while others won't even consider if it's less than $150/hour. Also take into account risk -- how willing or okay is it if you lose than $2k?

I'd go out and get a job and save some money until I could afford to play this game.

Quote: RS

Depends what other options there are (including building a bankroll) or what's worth my time. Some may play a $20/hour game while others won't even consider if it's less than $150/hour. Also take into account risk -- how willing or okay is it if you lose than $2k?

One full day at the table. I'm not talking about a career here.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I'd go out and get a job and save some money until I could afford to play this game.

lol Axiom is always a bit crass, but also always spot on =p; makes for an interesting read.

Two ways of looking at this:
1) You do not have enough of a bankroll to play this game with any kind of longevity, or any game really for that matter.
2) You're on a trip or not a pro and just want to play this game (and count it I assume). I'm also assuming you just want something quick and dirty to go off of.

In this case I would play this game the following way (assuming a couple other rules - 4 hands - DA2... ~.2% HE):

TC - Bet
-1 - $10
0 - $10
1 - $40 (2 hands of $20)
2 - $60 (2 hands of $30)
3 - $80 (2 hands of $40)
4+ - $100 (2 hands of $50)

I would not bet 2 greens when betting $50 either; cap all bets with reds. It's double deck, so if it's no mid shoe entry you might have to go down to playing TC -2 in case one of the earlier opening rounds drops quickly (you'll get way too much attention if you hop in and out constantly, but I absolutely can't justify playing anything under TC -2... and in fact would sit out if the TC -2 isn't within the first few rounds).

The 10-1 spread (or ~7.5 if you look at the difference for 2 hands) should give you some play and not bring too much heat since it is $10 min. The only reason this isn't spreading more is because you only have $2,000. Even for a "trip" this would at least be 20 big bets though, which again isn't ideal, but it certainly could be worse.

Hope this helps.

Quote:

lol Axiom is always a bit crass, but also always spot on =p; makes for an interesting read.

It's alright. I don't particularly get my feelings hurt over message board commentary. Besides, I don't think Axiom took into consideration that perhaps my approach to the game is different. I'm not trying to save a huge bankroll and go playing all the time. If I lose all the gambling money I am willing to put up in one session, even quickly, that's okay. I don't need to have enough to fund another session the next day or week. I don't fear ROR. All I want to be is a skilled recreational player who plays in the 1-2K range maybe ten times a year depending on how I do.

Unless a card counting scheme is completely useless to someone with 2K in chips at a $10 table, and we all know that's not the case, then I think it's wise to seek all the advice I can get from other players. Hard to fault me for that unless you're an arrogant prick maybe, but other than that I think I ask a legitimate question.

And thank you for your advice, by the way.

Quote: Wanderer

Unless a card counting scheme is completely useless to someone with 2K in chips at a $10 table, and we all know that's not the case, then I think it's wise to seek all the advice I can get from other players. Hard to fault me for that unless you're an arrogant prick maybe, but other than that I think I ask a legitimate question.

And thank you for your advice, by the way.

You're quite welcome... and lol it does seem as though you took a little offence to it. He was just giving you the honest blunt truth, not wrapped up too nicely, but the truth for anyone wanting to take the game seriously none the less.

I noticed some of the pro's on this site don't like to answer 'non-pro' questions such as trips/etc because they don't even want to think of the game not played 'properly.' As a very analytical/mathematically correct part time player I can see both sides... Also, this question was already inadvertently answered in my A-Z Card Counting thread. I put bet spreads in, and talked about trips/playing with higher ROR.

Anyways, hope you got the answers you were looking for =D.

Quote: Romes

lol Axiom is always a bit crass, but also always spot on =p; makes for an interesting read.

Two ways of looking at this:
1) You do not have enough of a bankroll to play this game with any kind of longevity, or any game really for that matter.
2) You're on a trip or not a pro and just want to play this game (and count it I assume). I'm also assuming you just want something quick and dirty to go off of.

In this case I would play this game the following way (assuming a couple other rules - 4 hands - DA2... ~.2% HE):

TC - Bet
-1 - $10
0 - $10
1 - $40 (2 hands of $20)
2 - $60 (2 hands of $30)
3 - $80 (2 hands of $40)
4+ - $100 (2 hands of $50)

I would not bet 2 greens when betting $50 either; cap all bets with reds. It's double deck, so if it's no mid shoe entry you might have to go down to playing TC -2 in case one of the earlier opening rounds drops quickly (you'll get way too much attention if you hop in and out constantly, but I absolutely can't justify playing anything under TC -2... and in fact would sit out if the TC -2 isn't within the first few rounds).

The 10-1 spread (or ~7.5 if you look at the difference for 2 hands) should give you some play and not bring too much heat since it is $10 min. The only reason this isn't spreading more is because you only have $2,000. Even for a "trip" this would at least be 20 big bets though, which again isn't ideal, but it certainly could be worse.

Hope this helps.

10-1 in DD?? You must have a great act.

FWIW, I find that it is actually easier to get away with a large bet spread at high limits than low limits. $10-$100 is a counter. $200 - $2000 is a crazy high roller.

When pulling the crazy high roller act, I like to jump my bet around (not ramp) and if I'm betting two spots, bet vastly different amounts on each spot. Designate one your "lucky hand" and bet really big on that one. None of this is good for variance, but that's why you need a bankroll. And be sure to order expensive drinks.

This bet ramping according to count is too by-the-book, a pit with any kind of clue will be on to you right away.

Quote: Wanderer

It's alright. I don't particularly get my feelings hurt over message board commentary. Besides, I don't think Axiom took into consideration that perhaps my approach to the game is different. I'm not trying to save a huge bankroll and go playing all the time. If I lose all the gambling money I am willing to put up in one session, even quickly, that's okay. I don't need to have enough to fund another session the next day or week. I don't fear ROR. All I want to be is a skilled recreational player who plays in the 1-2K range maybe ten times a year depending on how I do.

I was not attempting to be offensive. The point is that a $2k bankroll is not enough money to really play this game.

If you are showing up to the casino with $2k, that is not a bankroll. That is just how much money you have in your pocket. A bankroll is all your money, or, at least, all the money that you are willing to devote to gambling. The assumption is that if you lose it all, there will be significant negative consequences for you, not that you will come back with the same amount of money in your pocket after a trip to the bank.

So if you just want to show up and have fun for a weekend with $2k, then I think that you do have enough money to play it. I would not ramp according to count -- I would set a max bet of, probably, $100 (maybe $50, depending on how important it is to you that you play all weekend) and press aggressively to get to that max bet on any positive count. I would also not come off the top with the table minimum -- I'd start with a lot more and then drop down if I lose and the count drops. $25 is probably a good opening bet.

This is a really good game, and it's +EV at any positive running count (maybe just neutral if it's +1 after the first hand).

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

This bet ramping according to count is too by-the-book, a pit with any kind of clue will be on to you right away.

I've found I can claim I'm playing "progressive" as just about every dealer/pit I've ever encountered always talk about progressive players and how you 'have' to press your bet to make money! I.e. I've had pits literally encouraging me to slowly up my bet, so I incorporated that in to my act.

I'm fully willing to admit this might be a lot different when you're not a red chipper as I am though. I don't have a whole lot of high limit/roller experience.

Quote:

I was not attempting to be offensive. The point is that a $2k bankroll is not enough money to really play this game.

Maybe not to whatever standard you have in mind, but the money I play with is the money I play with and that's all I'm going to put into it. Life would be a lot easier if we all had exactly what we needed all the time, but that's not always the case. There are a bunch of NFL coaches who wish they had Peyton Manning playing QB for them, but they don't and they have to make it work the best they can with who they have. Similarly, I may not have the bankroll you'd prefer but it is what it is and I simply would like to maximize my playing strategy while having a damn good time in the process and not taking it too seriously.

I don't think that's too hard to understand.

Quote:

If you are showing up to the casino with $2k, that is not a bankroll. That is just how much money you have in your pocket. A bankroll is all your money, or, at least, all the money that you are willing to devote to gambling.

If all the money I have in my pocket is all the money I specifically have set aside for gambling, is that not my bankroll? :)

Quote:

So if you just want to show up and have fun for a weekend with $2k, then I think that you do have enough money to play it. I would not ramp according to count -- I would set a max bet of, probably, $100 (maybe $50, depending on how important it is to you that you play all weekend) and press aggressively to get to that max bet on any positive count. I would also not come off the top with the table minimum -- I'd start with a lot more and then drop down if I lose and the count drops. $25 is probably a good opening bet.

This is a really good game, and it's +EV at any positive running count (maybe just neutral if it's +1 after the first hand).

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know, my good man.

And yes, I think it is a good table. Another thing about it is that I often have it to myself. Maybe 1-2 other people at the the most sometimes, so it's never crowded and the play is fast. Maybe that leads to more exposure, but obviously it's a good thing in terms of sheer game play. But right now I am in the middle of a very busy time of year for me and it probably won't be until early December that I can go again. But after that I can go about any weekend I wish until around this time next year.

Quote: Wanderer

If all the money I have in my pocket is all the money I specifically have set aside for gambling, is that not my bankroll? :)

I think that the term "bankroll" has different connotations. It sounds to me like it's just your loss limit for the weekend. Which is fine! It's just not a bankroll.

To me, the term "bankroll" implies that you are taking the game seriously, and attempting to grow that bankroll in the long term. It also implies that losing it has severe consequences -- at the very least, you will be unable to play again for a long time, until you can scrape together some more money. If you are playing a +EV game, this is very bad (you can't make money if you're not playing). If you're playing a -EV game, the term bankroll is just silly. It's something that craps and roulette players use to make it sound like they are doing something more that just blowing off their money.

Quote:

And yes, I think it is a good table. Another thing about it is that I often have it to myself. Maybe 1-2 other people at the the most sometimes, so it's never crowded and the play is fast. Maybe that leads to more exposure, but obviously it's a good thing in terms of sheer game play. But right now I am in the middle of a very busy time of year for me and it probably won't be until early December that I can go again. But after that I can go about any weekend I wish until around this time next year.

I love playing a game like that with a fast dealer, heads up. It's about 4-5 minutes between shuffles.

Quote:

I think that the term "bankroll" has different connotations. It sounds to me like it's just your loss limit for the weekend. Which is fine! It's just not a bankroll.

To me, the term "bankroll" implies that you are taking the game seriously, and attempting to grow that bankroll in the long term. It also implies that losing it has severe consequences -- at the very least, you will be unable to play again for a long time, until you can scrape together some more money. If you are playing a +EV game, this is very bad (you can't make money if you're not playing). If you're playing a -EV game, the term bankroll is just silly. It's something that craps and roulette players use to make it sound like they are doing something more that just blowing off their money.

I understand what you're saying and agree that the term "bankroll" implies a large sum of cash beyond what you would take to the table at any given session. I used the term loosely to describe what I would be bringing to the table to play.

Not enough bankroll for the limits. But on a "per-session" basis OK.

Spread 1-4Hi/Lo -2 to 0 =1, +1/+2 = 2, +3 or better = 4. Do Not Raise a push or a loss: only a win. Play Red at all times.
GLnGG