A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack

Quote: GWAE

I don't get to play as much as I used to. It is a lot tougher for us to take 500 to a casino these days. However I have been practicing counting over the last few weeks and went to the casino to play yesterday and it was a total disaster. Counting is a lot tougher than it appears and I consider myself to be pretty intelligent. I used cancellations and that worked pretty well but when the count went from positive to negative and then back my brain started to hurt. I was especially struggling with dealing with negative numbers.

My brain doesn't like low cards being positive and high cards being negative. I thought about reversing the counts so that low was negative. Has anyone ever done that?

What you've indicated is generally a lack of practice, in my honest opinion. When you think you've practiced enough, double it... and while you're practicing I would recommend having your GF deal topless to you, having a movie on in the background (and trying to watch it) whilst also having a conversation with her... face.

When you get to actual casino play, counting should be like breathing; it should take very little effort and you should be able to do it almost naturally (i.e. you can't "not" count if cards are in front of you).

Many others have had the same issues with the negative numbers, and one very common problem is FLIPPING THE SIGN. You'll go "negative 1, negative 2, 3..." and drop the negative and have a VERY wrong count. Another thing I'd suggest, and I personally do, is count negatives in another language. If you ever took spanish, french, or just are capable of learning 1 through 20 in any other language (this should be all you really need to know =P) then when you get negative, instead of saying "negative" and the number, say the number in the other language. No way to confuse the two or switch the sign then =).

Practice practice practice!

The problem with negative is it has too many syllables and is cumbersome switch it.
Try "truck" your brain will thank you, truck 1, truck 2, truck you, it's about rhythm and flow
negative has neither.

Quote: Romes

Many others have had the same issues with the negative numbers, and one very common problem is FLIPPING THE SIGN. You'll go "negative 1, negative 2, 3..." and drop the negative and have a VERY wrong count.

I have "caught" myself doing this a number of times and suspect there have been many more times that I didn't catch myself. Usually it is because I am not paying enough attention and am on 'auto pilot'. :/

Absolutely the issue is practice. In one shoe yesterday I got flustered about 1/3 of the way through. I was at negative 1 then I got involved in a big hand. Not money big but card big. It was 22,2, then each one had a few cards on it. Another player split 8s. I had completely lost count. I knew it went good so I pressed for the next 2 hands but then took a walk because I had no idea where it went and was frustrated. Playing yesterday actually took the fun out of the game because I was thinking so hard. Normally when I play I will interact with others at the table. Yesterday I was a robot and didn't say anything to anyone. I am certain the floor could tell I was counting or at least trying to count. I was at least smart enough not to use my card yesterday.

I will continue to practice. I had a good day after my royal yesterday which put a little extra into my gambling budget so I will be back next week to try again.

Quote: GWAE

...I will continue to practice. I had a good day after my royal yesterday which put a little extra into my gambling budget so I will be back next week to try again.

I don't normally recommend anyone count, or try to count, until they're "ready." Mainly for the reason you listed above... You looked like a counter focusing on the table because you had to, and thus you think even the PB knew you were "trying" to count. Thus, in learning the ropes at the casino, you could be doing yourself in at said casino. I'd recommend practice practice practice at home. When you can run through several shoes in a row, with no playing or counting mistakes at all, while being distracted, and do all of the above in quick order... Then you're ready for a "casino trial." Also, you'll find the "fun of the game" returns once counting isn't so difficult for you, because then you can have fun since you don't have to devote so much effort to counting.

Never let them see you comin...

Use "M" (minus) or "N" (negative) for the count. Counting from 0 to -5.....0, m1, m2, m3, m4, m5.

Practice just counting through numbers without any cards. 0, 1, 2....by 1's up to 20. Then count down from +20 to -20 by 1's. Then do the same thing but count by 2's. 0, 2, 4.... As well as 1, 3, 5....etc. If you have a higher level count, do the same thing but by 3's as well as 4's. I do this on the way to the casino when I'm going to count. Sometimes even when I'm walking up to a table before I buy in. Gets the brain working a little bit.


I do not recommend starting at any other number than 0. Unless you use an unbalanced count where there is no true count conversion, that is.


Just keep practicing.

Quote: RS

Use "M" (minus) or "N" (negative) for the count. Counting from 0 to -5.....0, m1, m2, m3, m4, m5.

Practice just counting through numbers without any cards. 0, 1, 2....by 1's up to 20. Then count down from +20 to -20 by 1's. Then do the same thing but count by 2's. 0, 2, 4.... As well as 1, 3, 5....etc. If you have a higher level count, do the same thing but by 3's as well as 4's. I do this on the way to the casino when I'm going to count. Sometimes even when I'm walking up to a table before I buy in. Gets the brain working a little bit.


I do not recommend starting at any other number than 0. Unless you use an unbalanced count where there is no true count conversion, that is.


Just keep practicing.

You like starting at zero? I know that is how it was taught so long ago, made a point, one easy to recognize. But bouncing above and below zero is a bit cumbersome for many, myself included. There are other options...

My best advice might be don't worry about tonight's results. Play for the long term, and bring lots of money..;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

You like starting at zero? I know that is how it was taught so long ago, made a point, one easy to recognize. But bouncing above and below zero is a bit cumbersome for many, myself included. There are other options...

My best advice might be don't worry about tonight's results. Play for the long term, and bring lots of money..;-)

I would feel out of water not starting at 0 I think... Like I said, I use a foreign language to count the negatives, so I don't feel like I'm above/below a lot, just using different words.

At the end of the day... The way you count that's the best for you, is whatever you're the most comfortable with as to make the least amount of mistakes =)... because that'll be the one that's most PROFITABLE to you!

Quote: Romes

Many others have had the same issues with the negative numbers, and one very common problem is FLIPPING THE SIGN. You'll go "negative 1, negative 2, 3..." and drop the negative and have a VERY wrong count. Another thing I'd suggest, and I personally do, is count negatives in another language. If you ever took spanish, french, or just are capable of learning 1 through 20 in any other language (this should be all you really need to know =P) then when you get negative, instead of saying "negative" and the number, say the number in the other language. No way to confuse the two or switch the sign then =).

Practice practice practice!

The easiest thing to do is just say "n1, n2, n3", etc.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The easiest thing to do is just say "n1, n2, n3", etc.

Does anyone else do the count backwards? Like 4 is -1 instead of 1. My brain dislikes the idea of a lower card being a higher rank than higher cards.

It came natural to me. Probably because I learned by dealing an 8 deck shoe all day for about a year and keeping results. BTW, I use "m" for minus.

That`s what I use also m1, m2 etc.

Quote: GWAE

Does anyone else do the count backwards? Like 4 is -1 instead of 1. My brain dislikes the idea of a lower card being a higher rank than higher cards.

Careful with this, and commit EARLY to one way or another. The more you flip flop/etc your brain will ingrain these associations. Of course I'd personally recommend the "standard," but if that's what works easiest and most comfortable for you, then commit and PRACTICE =).

Quote: Romes

Careful with this, and commit EARLY to one way or another. The more you flip flop/etc your brain will ingrain these associations. Of course I'd personally recommend the "standard," but if that's what works easiest and most comfortable for you, then commit and PRACTICE =).

Yeah of course the risk of changing it would be I would always be bass ackwards when it comes to reading or discussing. I will more than likely keep to standard but was just wondering if others made that adjustment.

Quote: GWAE

Yeah of course the risk of changing it would be I would always be bass ackwards when it comes to reading or discussing. I will more than likely keep to standard but was just wondering if others made that adjustment.

I've heard someone say something similar before (as in associate positive numbers with "big" cards, etc) but no I don't know anyone who's ever reversed the count like that.

It's a very good thread and lays out all the basics very nicely. Then I get to "The amount you give up in any one category to a more complex count you will make back 10 folds with less player mistakes"... This may apply to some individuals but is an invalid statement on the broader spectrum. No matter what count you use, you must train to perform it flawlessly before employing it and if you are unable to perform it flawlessly then this is not the count for you as an individual.


"I recommend Hi-Lo."

"Why?"

"Because everyone else is doing it and besides that what if you make a mistake using a more complex count?!"

Although I should feel quite content with this train of thought since it advocates holding people back from ever going beyond Hi-Lo, I actually have a sinking feeling, a sense of losing faith in all humanity sort of thing because it's like saying, "Don't ever attempt anything beyond the simplest math, basic addition and subtraction because if you attempt quadratic equations you could make a mistake!"

Bill Zender once stated that a lone Hi-Lo counter needs a 1:12 spread minimum and a lot of money backing them up to be any threat at all to the casinos. In pointing this out to casino executives (that have heard more hype than reality) he did a lot to help the gaming industry and novice blackjack players alike. I've received ridicule over the years for making similar statements, although they were considerably less subtle. I have compared what I do to Hi-Lo by saying if you had an enemy entrenchment within a grid, Hi-Lo is the equivalent of carpet bombing the entire grid and hoping for the best whereas with me it's more like sending a laser guided bunker buster on the specific target within the grid lit up with a FLIR camera.

While the fact of the matter remains that most people really should just stick with Hi-Lo as it is the limit of their capabilities, it shouldn't be the end of the road if you are capable of more.

Quote: Tarzan

It's a very good thread and lays out all the basics very nicely. Then I get to "The amount you give up in any one category to a more complex count you will make back 10 folds with less player mistakes"... This may apply to some individuals but is an invalid statement on the broader spectrum. No matter what count you use, you must train to perform it flawlessly before employing it and if you are unable to perform it flawlessly then this is not the count for you as an individual.


"I recommend Hi-Lo."

"Why?"

"Because everyone else is doing it and besides that what if you make a mistake using a more complex count?!"

Although I should feel quite content with this train of thought since it advocates holding people back from ever going beyond Hi-Lo, I actually have a sinking feeling, a sense of losing faith in all humanity sort of thing because it's like saying, "Don't ever attempt anything beyond the simplest math, basic addition and subtraction because if you attempt quadratic equations you could make a mistake!"

Bill Zender once stated that a lone Hi-Lo counter needs a 1:12 spread minimum and a lot of money backing them up to be any threat at all to the casinos. In pointing this out to casino executives (that have heard more hype than reality) he did a lot to help the gaming industry and novice blackjack players alike. I've received ridicule over the years for making similar statements, although they were considerably less subtle. I have compared what I do to Hi-Lo by saying if you had an enemy entrenchment within a grid, Hi-Lo is the equivalent of carpet bombing the entire grid and hoping for the best whereas with me it's more like sending a laser guided bunker buster on the specific target within the grid lit up with a FLIR camera.

While the fact of the matter remains that most people really should just stick with Hi-Lo as it is the limit of their capabilities, it shouldn't be the end of the road if you are capable of more.

Oh, PLEASE! Tarzan, are you really going to come here and start a count debate? Don't you get enough of that on the other site that you and your fellow "higher count proponents" have destroyed? This isn't strictly a blackjack site. Most of what blackjack players are here, are recreational type players best suited for hi-lo or a simple level one count. And the few who are serious or professional level players, are well suited to make up their own minds.

As you know Tarzan, I am a professional player finishing my 12th year supporting myself from blackjack AP play. I use a simple count and approach. I play hi-lo. Most other professional players play hi-lo. The exception being the small group of higher count proponents that dominate the other site that you participate on. But they are a minority, an outlier within the blackjack community as a whole. If you dispute that, you can poll the members of BJ21 where many more professional players participate or poll the members of the BJ HoF.

While, I choose to play hi-lo, and a simplistic approach that allows me to concentrate less on my play and count and do some other things like track multiple tables (which I could not do, playing a higher level count or count with side counts), I am not the proponent of hi-lo that I have been made out to be. I am fine with people making their own choice to best suit their own needs and abilities. What I am...is a proponent of honesty of the facts.

The count debate isn't about mistakes, nor holding anyone back from going beyond hi-lo. It's about honesty in the facts. Many proponents distort the gain from higher counts. It's not that there isn't some advantage to be gained, but the fact is there are diminishing returns for going above and beyond a simple legit, level one count like hi-lo.

So once a player is to the point that he is considering playing another count, looking for gain in performance, the question isn't whether there is some sort of modest gain, but rather if it is worth the extra effort and if that extra effort wouldn't be better spent being applied to some sort of technique that really does make much more of an impact on performance.

In my own case that extra effort is spent tracking multiple tables, that enables me to jump from one table and a negative/neutral count directly to a second more advantageous table or situation. What I am really doing is changing the true count frequencies in my favor, which improves my results by 50% to as much as 100%, depending on just how often I can "jump". But that is just me, there are other directions one can go. But higher counts for the sake of improving results is just peanuts for most players. I call it "chasing pennies, when you could/should be chasing dollars".

Now most of my above comments are based on the idea of more 'traditional' advanced counts, like level two/level 3 counts and/or multiple side counts. There really is diminishing returns for the effort. It should be noted that Tarzan, is a practitioner of a very specialized count, much more complex than level 2 or 3 counts, even such counts with side counts. He spent years developing and perfecting his count, known in the community as the "Tarzan Count", and he has a very unique skill set that makes that type of approach ideal for him.

It should also be noted that Tarzan is writing or planning a book about his "Tarzan count", so he has a bit of an agenda. But for most players, even most professional or professional level players, advancing beyond a level one count is simply a case of whether it is worth the time and effort or whether that effort is better put towards something more significant.

No, there's no "count debate", only criticism of ideology. Everyone has had just about enough of the "great count debate"... to the point of being sick of it, me included. Anyone that hasn't looked at the hard numbers in an objective manner and figured it out by now never will.

Quote: rainman

The problem with negative is it has too many syllables and is cumbersome switch it.
Try "truck" your brain will thank you, truck 1, truck 2, truck you, it's about rhythm and flow
negative has neither.

For negative numbers, I just think m ( 'em') rather than 'minus'

Tarzan, I list several reasons why I recommend Hi/Low in both the intro and in 3 the articles that were created from this base thread. I also go on to state that the count that's the best for you is the one that you'll make the least amount of mistakes with... That's like, literally the next sentence =).

I've thrown my 2 cents in on other threads for the "count debates" but I won't have them in this thread. I decided not to post on the most recent one in order to stay out of it, but apparently it's spilling over now =p. I have a lot of respect for everyone involved, but I'd like to ask both Tarzan and Kewlj to refrain from debating counting systems in this thread. I, of course, welcome all questions/etc about specifics to the thread itself and not the aforementioned debate.

This is a guide to new players and I refuse to have it be hijacked/spoiled by mostly unrelated topics/debates, such as this one that spans many threads and even multiple forums.

Romes, forgive me if this has been addressed already but I have a question.

The calculations in your spreadsheet seem pretty simple. At higher counts, not only do you post a higher initial bet, but you also may double more often and split more often. Also, there's a higher chance of 3to2 blackjack payouts. Is all of this already baked into your "advantage" percentage? Or is the amount wagered understated, and therefore the EV understated?

^^^^^^^^ Like this guy said, the added doubles/splits/blackjacks/dealer busts from higher counts are what's "baked" in to the advantage already =). Interestingly enough though, index plays are not. The more index plays you learn the little bit more and more gain per hand/hour/etc you get too. These are not going to change your EV massively, but it's worth noting!

Quote: Romes

The more index plays you learn the little bit more and more gain per hand/hour/etc you get too. These are not going to change your EV massively, but it's worth noting!

Every little bit helps when you're trying to overcome a house edge as narrow as the one in blackjack.

Quote: RenoGambler

Every little bit helps when you're trying to overcome a house edge as narrow as the one in blackjack.

Quite true. I play with the I18 and about an additional 25 indices. While not required, if yo're going to take the game very seriously (professionally) then you should learn as many as you can. Otherwise I18 plus some extras should suit you just fine. At the very beginning the I18 is a good place to start.

Hi Romes,

Thanks to your post, I am thinking (although unlikely to) play BJ again. When I was serious (long long long time ago), I would only play 2 decks and would use the Omega II count with side Aces. The bigger decks were too tedious with this count because if I made a mistake or have a doubt, I would have to sit the shoe out. I switched to an unbalanced count for the shoes (K O) but since I was only playing about 3-4 times a year it was not worth it to brush up on it every time I go. I was not having fun or socializing on the table because it would mess with my counting.
I just want to break even with the casino in terms of HA. Should I try the hi lo (it's easier to count but I would have to keep track of the # of decks dealt? What about just an Ace Five count? You seemed very knowledgeable about this so I thought I would ask.

Quote: Romes

Quite true. I play with the I18 and about an additional 25 indices. While not required, if yo're going to take the game very seriously (professionally) then you should learn as many as you can. Otherwise I18 plus some extras should suit you just fine. At the very beginning the I18 is a good place to start.

Of course, all the indexes in the world won't help if you haven't completely mastered the basics. BS mistakes have sunk many a would-be counter.

I have the BS on BJ down pat. It's just that I haven't played BJ for a while and now I am thinking about getting back into it on a sporadic basis, once every three months or so. Is there a counting system that along with basic strategy that can pull me to about even with the house, takes no effort to brush up on. With the KO count, I normally would take a week to remember the indices and practice the count. Even then, if the table is full and the atmosphere is rowdy, I would lose the count and revert to straight BS for the rest of the shoe.

Quote: whodat

I have the BS on BJ down pat. It's just that I haven't played BJ for a while and now I am thinking about getting back into it on a sporadic basis, once every three months or so. Is there a counting system that along with basic strategy that can pull me to about even with the house, takes no effort to brush up on. With the KO count, I normally would take a week to remember the indices and practice the count. Even then, if the table is full and the atmosphere is rowdy, I would lose the count and revert to straight BS for the rest of the shoe.

If you're just looking to break even with minimal effort, the Ace-Five count should get you close. For just a bit more effort, you could use KO with just the two or three most important indices (Insurance, 16vT, 15vT).

Thanks for the reply,

I go to the casino to have fun and not lose too much money (Is this an oxymoronic statement?) If I play BJ, it would normally with my friends or my wife. I don't normally play BJ by myself. I consider myself a junior high math guy compared to a lot of people here. Even so I don't like to give a huge edge to the house. I would be ok with losing a $25 bet for example if the HE is 1% or so (craps $5/20odds, BJ, Baccarat). But I would not put that $25 into a slot machine or a Yo.

Quote: whodat

I go to the casino to have fun and not lose too much money (Is this an oxymoronic statement?) If I play BJ, it would normally with my friends or my wife. I don't normally play BJ by myself. I consider myself a junior high math guy compared to a lot of people here. Even so I don't like to give a huge edge to the house. I would be ok with losing a $25 bet for example if the HE is 1% or so (craps $5/20odds, BJ, Baccarat). But I would not put that $25 into a slot machine or a Yo.

If you're playing BJ with a decent set of rules, you should be under a 1% HE from the start. Getting from there to the break even point isn't terribly difficult.

Good luck!

Due to the speed of the game, hourly, I wouldn't expect much financial difference between someone playing almost perfect basic strategy vs someone betting the outside on roulette, at the same bet amounts.

Quote: whodat

Hi Romes,

Thanks to your post, I am thinking (although unlikely to) play BJ again. When I was serious (long long long time ago), I would only play 2 decks and would use the Omega II count with side Aces. The bigger decks were too tedious with this count because if I made a mistake or have a doubt, I would have to sit the shoe out. I switched to an unbalanced count for the shoes (K O) but since I was only playing about 3-4 times a year it was not worth it to brush up on it every time I go. I was not having fun or socializing on the table because it would mess with my counting.
I just want to break even with the casino in terms of HA. Should I try the hi lo (it's easier to count but I would have to keep track of the # of decks dealt? What about just an Ace Five count? You seemed very knowledgeable about this so I thought I would ask.

Hey whodat... Your situation is a bit more common than you might think. Omega II w/ side count aces is definitely a better suit for shorter deck games such as SD and DD. However for the shoe games as you can tell it's quite difficult and takes a lot of concentration unless you're a very well polished. So if you play 3-4 times per year, it will require a study before each attempt. For your particular situation and what you've told me, I would certainly recommend a balanced count such as Hi/Low. It still gets the money out at the right time and captures the edge you're looking for whilst being simple enough that you shouldn't even need a refresher when you go back to play quarterly.

I would not recommend the Ace-5 count. When it comes to that you still need to understand concepts like kelly betting, bankroll management, RoR, etc, etc... So the fact that the count is simplistic doesn't get you out of having to understand these other concepts. At that point if you're going to take the time to learn something, you might as well learn something that can get you a healthier edge than .35% on a 1-8 spread. Hi/Low also works just fine on shorter decked games if you happen to come across them, though as I said earlier admittedly more specialized counts do tend to work a bit better on the shorter deck games. Hi/Low will get the money out there when you should have it out though and that's the majority of the battle.

Having already learned a more complex count with a side count Hi/Low should be easy for you to learn. The True Count conversion is like breathing after a little practice. All you do is look at the discard rack and estimate how many decks are left, then divide your RC by the number of decks left. For example, you're playing a 6 deck table and 3 decks are left with your RC +6... 6/2 = a true count of +3, bet. You can certainly get in to finer deck estimation such as half decks and quarter decks, but for someone who plays 3-4 times per year you should be fine estimating at a full deck, but I would encourage you to get to half decks eventually =).

If you want to "break even" and not get heat at your favorite places then you could probably do a simple 1-8 spread on the shoe games and a 1-6 spread on the double deck games you play. These are a bit smaller and will still be a little profitable for you, to account for mistakes/tips/etc. With this system though all you'll need to do to make a little money is adjust your spread to be bigger (like 1-15 on shoe and 1-8 or 1-10 on double deck) pending the heat of your local establishments. Of course I hope after reading the articles linked in the OP you'll understand Bankroll Management and RoR as well =P.

I say, I say, Damn son!
You type all that out, or are you dictating to your computer?
Nothing like a chicken hawk, much less a vulture ;-)

Whodat' on first?
Whose on second?
Who's on third?

It's whodat on third (my favorite spot when I used to play). Back then I would incorporate the current count (the cards that have just been dealt) into my decision to hit/stand/double. That was over 15 years ago. My mind is slower now :)

Rome,
Thanks. The hi-lo was the first count I learned from Stanford Wong's book before I bought Bryce Carlson's BlackJack for Blood.

Quote: whodat

It's whodat on third (my favorite spot when I used to play).

My 2nd best sport growing up, to soccer =P. Golf was my best for about a year until my baseball swing started to no longer go straight =D.

Quote: whodat

Back then I would incorporate the current count (the cards that have just been dealt) into my decision to hit/stand/double. That was over 15 years ago. My mind is slower now :)

Rome,
Thanks. The hi-lo was the first count I learned from Stanford Wong's book before I bought Bryce Carlson's BlackJack for Blood.

Ah, it'll be like riding a bicycle for you then. Especially if you only play a handful of times per year of the counts I've gone through that's the most powerful for it's simplicity to go back to. Any followups feel free to post/message/etc!

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to counting (I've played a lot of Blackjack in the casinos though) and I wanted some thoughts I had on adjusting the hi-lo count.

Is there any reason why I can't start my count at "10" or "20" rather than "0"? As I research counting, practice and application strategies, one thing that people talk about is if people do lose count, they're most likely to lose it in the negatives - I can attest to this as I am a victim of it myself.

I've been practicing counting in my off time - probably giving it between half an hour to an hour counting down single to six deck shoes. My accuracy is pretty good but I'm looking for a breakthrough. I thought this modification might increase my speed and accuracy.

Any thoughts?

Quote: seadragon

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to counting (I've played a lot of Blackjack in the casinos though) and I wanted some thoughts I had on adjusting the hi-lo count...

Oh boy... Okay, what did you have in mind?

Quote: seadragon

Is there any reason why I can't start my count at "10" or "20" rather than "0"? As I research counting, practice and application strategies, one thing that people talk about is if people do lose count, they're most likely to lose it in the negatives - I can attest to this as I am a victim of it myself.

I'll disagree with this "a little." One of the big problems anyone new to counting has is "switching the sign." So they'll go.. +1.. +2... 3.... -2... -1, where they switch the sign from plus to minus. This is just as likely to happen in a positive count as a negative count. Next, there are plenty of counts that don't start at 0. These are called unbalanced counts. In my articles (linked in the OP) one of the first links on the first one points to qfit and the comparison breakdown of about 15-20 different counting systems. They show there what the values are for each card (for example in one counting system 5's are worth +3, instead of +1... etc). The problem with these unbalanced counts is unless you've given the system the extra practice, time, and dedication it deserves most often people make a lot more mistakes since it's not all +1's and -1's.

Next on the same link you can look at the 3 main categories the counts are compared on... Betting Correlation (BC), Playing Efficiency (PE), and Insurance Correlation (IC). They're all explained there, so I won't go in to that, but really you could make a case for each counting system. The key here is the system that feels the most comfortable to you, i.e. the one you're going to make the least amount of mistakes with, is the right one for you.

Quote: seadragon

I've been practicing counting in my off time - probably giving it between half an hour to an hour counting down single to six deck shoes. My accuracy is pretty good but I'm looking for a breakthrough. I thought this modification might increase my speed and accuracy.

Any thoughts?

Adding complexity to anything rarely increases either speed or accuracy. Speed comes from repetition. The more you practice the more counting will be like breathing and become second nature. Like any pro's in any sport/etc, when you practice that much it becomes muscle memory... Which is what needs to happen here as well. What system are you currently using? Have you already read through the 3 articles posted in the OP? What parts of the current counting system do you feel you're struggling with?

Thanks for this amazing reply! You cleared up a lot for me.

I'm sorry-i haven't read the articles. What's the OP? Where do I find it?

Still using high-lo and feeling like I'm over the hump. I'm starting to count easier and more accurately. Visualizing the count has started to become very automatic too.

OP = Original Post
See page 1 of this thread

Happy Counting

Quote: seadragon

Thanks for this amazing reply! You cleared up a lot for me.

I'm sorry-i haven't read the articles. What's the OP? Where do I find it?

Still using high-lo and feeling like I'm over the hump. I'm starting to count easier and more accurately. Visualizing the count has started to become very automatic too.

No problem. As 2F pointed out OP = Opening Post (which is the very first post of the thread on page 1). There are 3 articles linked there that will take you from A to Z and I guarantee if you read and re-read them you will have a winning game!

Glad to hear the practice is starting to pay off with Hi/Low. Stick with it and KEEP practicing! Add distractions such as watch a favorite movie, have a gf deal topless to you, play slot machine noises on your phone from YouTube, etc. When you go count in a casino it should be literally a joke =P.

Another little tip, that at least I found helps a ton keeping track of positive vs negative counts (to avoid the sign switching), I use a foreign language for the negative counts. This makes it so you don't have to say "negative 1, negative 2,..." etc. Feel free to post any other comments/questions!

Is it at all possible to be a card counter and still get rated/comp'd? I'm torn between the two and from what you guys describe it seems like you have to pick one or the other as from what I've read card counters don't want to be rated. As I don't get to true casino's very much I like the idea of getting treated like a VIP and getting free vacations. But I also want to actually win money instead of just losing money at a much slower rate.

Absolutely. It also depends on your level. It's a double edged sword... If you have local shops you're going to be spending enough time at that they kind of know your face, you can't really get away with not using a card at that point. Also, it depends on your level a little bit too. You can only get away without using a card and not causing heat up until a certain point. If you go in to the high limit room and buy in for $2k at a $100 min table and don't use a card, well that's going to generate heat. However, if you buy in for $100 at a $5 table, then no one's going to care if you use a card or not.

If you don't get to the casinos very much then unless you have decent action you're not going to get a lot of comps anyways.

It really all depends on your set up. If you don't frequent these casinos often I'd play with a card for the mailers/little extras. If you play there all the time then I might use one because people are going to know your face and know you're a regular enough that you should have a card. What it comes down to is if you're playing the same place (either way) then you might need to implement some cover to keep your heat down... but remember this: there WILL come a day when the jig is up and they will ask you to stop playing blackjack (so long as you have a winning game). That might be a year from now or 10 years from now, but eventually they will see you're not a losing player. You can delay this with cover, generating losses, etc, etc. One time out of a million will be the perfect storm of a surveillance guy who just learned to count and you happen to walk in on his shift and he over-zealously checks you/your table and nails you. It could all be over on your next trip, or 20 years from now. Playing with a card is not a bad thing, it just means when that day does come they have your name to "possibly" add to the databases if they subscribe to them or care enough about your play. Some places just give a "no more blackjack" and don't even take it further than that.

Quote: seadragon

Is there any reason why I can't start my count at "10" or "20" rather than "0"? As I research counting, practice and application strategies, one thing that people talk about is if people do lose count, they're most likely to lose it in the negatives - I can attest to this as I am a victim of it myself.

I think the biggest drawback of starting at "10" or "20" rather than "0" is that it makes the conversion to "true count" far more difficult.

I used to start at 100. 101, 102, 99, 98 etc.
I used unbalanced system so true count wasn't a factor.

Anybody have an idea how prevalent the SHFL ONE2SIX CSM is in casinos today ? Also, any SWAG as to lease fee per month ?
If need to be discrete. PM me. Thanks in advance

Quote: onalinehorse

Anybody have an idea how prevalent the SHFL ONE2SIX CSM is in casinos today ? Also, any SWAG as to lease fee per month ?
If need to be discrete. PM me. Thanks in advance

It's going to vary from casino to casino. Some only use CSM's... Some use no CSM's... Some are a mix. The best I could say is that most casinos wanted to go to CSM's, but the backlash they got from ploppies that think "it's rigged" forced them not to. Pretty much every casino you walk in will have a shoe game of blackjack. I don't recall the lease monthly fee.

A few years ago, perhaps as many as ten, someone said the lease was $5 per shift. If a table dealt one hand in a shift, it cost the same as if it were open the whole time. That info was from a poster on bjinfo.com from poster who evidently was a casino muckety muck.

Quote: dutchman

Is it at all possible to be a card counter and still get rated/comp'd? I'm torn between the two and from what you guys describe it seems like you have to pick one or the other as from what I've read card counters don't want to be rated. As I don't get to true casino's very much I like the idea of getting treated like a VIP and getting free vacations. But I also want to actually win money instead of just losing money at a much slower rate.

I was a very low roller, playing $3 tables where possible. On $5 tables, my main bet was $10 and I'd rarely go above $25, except after a $25 win, I'd let it ride once. Even if I won at $50, I'd drop back to $25 most times.
If the count tanked, I'd make one or two bets at $5 and then take a smoke break.
I'd get three days a month and $25-50 a month in mailing offers from a number of casinos.
I once stayed 28 days and ended up paying for one nite. Wasn't treated as a VIP and moving every couple of days gets old pretty fast but free is free.

So let's say you sit at a table with no knowledge of what the current count is. What number do you start off at?