Beyond basic strategy

Hello kind people!

After reading a lot of other people's posts, I have a question of my own, so this is my first post on this forum :)
The last couple of months I've mastered basic strategy and now I'd like to know what is beyond that, without getting into card counting.

For instance I've read about a rule where it is advised to stand on a 16 vs 10 if it consists of 3 or more cards, as compared to surrendering (or hitting if surrender isn't allowed) when the 16 consists of only two cards. I'd like to know for instance if that is also the case for a 3-card 16 vs Ace, 16 vs 9 or 15 vs 10 (because basic strategy for a 4 to 8 deck game where the dealer stands on a soft 17 advises to surrender).
I understands the odds are changing in the favor of standing on a 3-card 16 vs 10, because you've used a couple of small cards for that particular 16, but can that rule be applied no matter how many decks there are in the game?

Anyway, it's about exceptions like those above I would love to hear more. What books or sites do you guys recommend that will go deeper into this subject?

Thanks!

Why don't you just learn to count cards? It's actually not as difficult as it's made out to be. You're not going to find many plays for composition dependent basic strategy, at least for 6-8 deck.

Quote: FrostieFingerz

Anyway, it's about exceptions like those above I would love to hear more. What books or sites do you guys recommend that will go deeper into this subject?

Thanks!

Hey Frostie! Welcome, and thanks for posting an interesting question. While I kind of agree with RS, counting isn't all that difficult, it does take copious amounts of time, study, and dedication. In the end, like anything else, it's just memory though! If you can memorize basic strategy, you can memorize the Illistrious 18 index plays and you're on your way =p. I'm actually going to be releasing a thread: Counting A-Z by the end of the week. Perhaps take a peak at that and see if it touches your interests.

That being said, if counting simply does not interest you, no worries. There's still plenty you can try to do to minimize the house edge. The easiest thing by far, which you've done, is mastering basic strategy (AND the Fab 4 surrenders). In just about any game this will get you to approximately only -.5% to the house. I would say after this is game selection and bankroll management.

Game selection is huge. Understanding what the different rules do to/for the player is a key part of the game that doesn't have to have anything to do with counting. Finding games with the most favorable rules can take a terrible H17 8D game from .66% house edge to a nice 6D S17 game of ~.40%. Simply looking for tables with different rules can certainly change your night! For example, if you play 6-5 blackjack, you're giving the house another 1.39%!!! If you have an 'average' game that pretty much QUADRUPLES the house edge from something like .45% to ~1.84%! A list of all the rule variations can be found on the Wizards odds site here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/

Next would come bankroll management. If you're not counting you must understand that you will not make money in the game if you play it long enough. However, if you just go on trips now and then and you don't want to go bust, or want to play within your limits, then this is again a rather important part of the game. Again, the Wizard is so kind as to provide a Risk of Ruin (ROR) calculator! It tells you for how many hands you plan to play on a trip, and how many units you're taking, what your ROR (chance of going completely bust) is. It can be found here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/12/

Example: I'm going to Vegas in a couple weeks. In just base units I'm taking 300 units and I plan to play approximately 3,000 hands (6 hours per day, 80 hands per hour average). Consulting the Wizards ROR calculator betting minimum units I'm < 0.01% to go bust! Of course this differs a bit when counting and spreading, but that will be discussed in my upcoming thread.

There's probably one or two small things that are just escaping my mind currently, but to be honest there isn't a huge list of things for non counters to accomplish. Basic Strategy, game selection, and bankroll management are super important to both counters and non alike. As far as books, I'm not too sure if I could recommend any blackjack books that DON'T have to do with counting as if the author doesn't even know how to count nor the math behind it, I wouldn't take his advice =P. A great book with good stories would be the bible of card counters - Beat The Dealer, by Ed Thorp.


EDIT: Seen a few people asking these things, so I went ahead and posted my A-Z Counting Thread here.

Quote: FrostieFingerz

For instance I've read about a rule where it is advised to stand on a 16 vs 10 if it consists of 3 or more cards,

I believe that's mostly applicable to 1 and 2 deck games, not 4-8 deck games.

The number of decks does change strategy. Composition dependent strategy is most applicable to 1 deck. Total dependent strategy is most applicable to infinite deck. Other games are somewhere in between.


Counting, as was suggested, can be more useful yet.

Quote: FrostieFingerz

Hello kind people!

After reading a lot of other people's posts, I have a question of my own, so this is my first post on this forum :)
The last couple of months I've mastered basic strategy and now I'd like to know what is beyond that, without getting into card counting.

For instance I've read about a rule where it is advised to stand on a 16 vs 10 if it consists of 3 or more cards, as compared to surrendering (or hitting if surrender isn't allowed) when the 16 consists of only two cards. I'd like to know for instance if that is also the case for a 3-card 16 vs Ace, 16 vs 9 or 15 vs 10 (because basic strategy for a 4 to 8 deck game where the dealer stands on a soft 17 advises to surrender).
I understands the odds are changing in the favor of standing on a 3-card 16 vs 10, because you've used a couple of small cards for that particular 16, but can that rule be applied no matter how many decks there are in the game?

Anyway, it's about exceptions like those above I would love to hear more. What books or sites do you guys recommend that will go deeper into this subject?

Thanks!

I'm going to address your specific questions and then offer my thoughts.

The dealer breaks less than 20% of the time with an ace up making staying on 16 a terrible decision.

When you hit 16 vs 10 you can get a pat hand and still lose. Same against the 9 but you will win more hands, making hitting the best option.

If you would like to refine the 3 card 16 vs 10 further, hit the following 3 card totals and stay on the rest: 4/6/6, 3/6/7, A/6/9, 2/6/8 and 3/3/10. Here's another. In 6 deck S17 games hit 10,2 vs 4 and stay on all other 12s vs 4. In H17 games stay on all 12s vs 4. All these variations are extremely close and most likely meaningless to all but the consummate professional. We are talking pennies so, as promised, here are my thoughts. Do you really want to fill your head with all this when learning to count is the better option?

Blackjack Attack 3rd Edition has all the charts pertaining to your questions. It is not a book for beginners but go ahead and order it if you're serious because you never know when it will go out of print again.

Thank you all for your thoughts. You gave me some great topics to search for. I was under the impression I had to master those rare exceptions before learning to count cards, but I'll look into card counting now and from what I've read so far, I think I'll go with the popular Hi-Lo method. I'll definitely be reading your thread, Romes!

Quote: FrostieFingerz

Thank you all for your thoughts. You gave me some great topics to search for. I was under the impression I had to master those rare exceptions before learning to count cards, but I'll look into card counting now and from what I've read so far, I think I'll go with the popular Hi-Lo method. I'll definitely be reading your thread, Romes!

Glad to hear you are interested in counting =). If you didn't catch my edit above, because of this (and other) threads I went ahead and finished up what I could and posted it here.