Hi-Lo count on sutomatic shuffle

Hello All

I have not searched for this on the forum but I head to vegas in 2 days and just wondered if the hi-lo count works on these continuous shuffle machines.

Ive noticed in the uk the dealers tend to put the cards back in the machine after about 3 hands. How do counters cope with this or is it impossible?

I have been practising hi-lo and just fancied giving it a very low stakes shot to practice real time

Cookie

there is such a thing as keeping a count . See link.

http://discountgambling.net/2012/07/27/counting-csm-blackjack-ev/

However, I am the wrong guy to ask much about this. BTW there is a typo in your subject line, that should be "suckomatic"

Quote: cookie1892

...How do counters cope with this or is it impossible?

I have been practising hi-lo and just fancied giving it a very low stakes shot to practice real time

Cookie

The simplified answer to your question is CSM can't be counted because it ruins the concept of counting. Counting is used to determine the value of the cards remaining to be played. If the cards that have already been played are put back in that group, then your count is reset, and thus worthless. Counters cope with this by not playing CSM's.

If you really want to give it a shot find a low limit shoe game and bet whatever the true count is (i.e. TC 2 = 2 units, 3 = 3 units, etc). Don't expect because you learned the basics of hi-low to make a ton of money though. You need to know much much more than I have a feeling you do. Oh, and even then you don't make a ton of money on any single trip. It's about the long run.

Quote: Romes

The simplified answer to your question is CSM can't be counted because it ruins the concept of counting.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has an opinion on what the article in the link has to say about it, especially anyone who has tried it.

Quote: odiousgambit

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has an opinion on what the article in the link has to say about it, especially anyone who has tried it.

I was writing a longer, more detailed post... but I think this sums the article up a lot easier:

With the 16 card "buffer" this particular CSM has you essentially get 2 hands. I.E. 6D and the cut card is 32 cards in. You're looking for the first hand of a 6 deck shoe to be positive enough to change the True Count for the second hand, which the author is claiming happens ~8% of the time through his simulations. To me, this is absolutely not worth it.

1) This means that 92 out of 100 deals you're playing a negative game (or burning a lot of time back counting).

2) The maximum potential advantage you're looking to get is +10 RC, which would be about a TC = +2 (generously rounding up), or an advantage of ~.5%. When counting from a shoe your maximum potential advantage is considerably greater. Just this past weekend I played a game that hit +19 with 3 decks left, resulting in a TC = 6.33, or a player advantage of ~2.7%! With the CSM you will 'almost' never have the opportunity to be greater than ~.5% advantage.

3) Most importantly, in my opinion, for the 8% of the time this supposedly does happen, the variance of still having ~5.5 decks left in the shoe would lead to very wild swings.

Again, this is the same as having a 6D shoe with the cut card 32 cards in. Whenever the Penetration is shitty, you need to have a larger spread to beat it. This would require a super spread, which again will lead to horrifically wild swings that just about no reasonable bankroll could accommodate.

To me personally, the variance is a complete deal breaker. This is a prime example of why card counters don't play poor penetration. If you found the exact same shoe game with 50% penetration (so 3 of 6 decks cut out) would you play it? Of course not. So overall, is it "countable?" Technically, yes. Is it worth it/viable? Absolutely not.

*This seems like an article a casino would pay to have written to get people to accept CSM's because like shoe games they would now think they're also "beatable."

Quote: Romes

With the 16 card "buffer" this particular CSM has you essentially get 2 hands. I.E. 6D and the cut card is 32 cards in.

I had heard a rumor that some places were using 5 decks in their CSMs - something about jams or other malfunctions with the full 6 deck load.

It's still lousy penetration.

Quote: odiousgambit

BTW there is a typo in your subject line, that should be "suckomatic"

Post of the year

deleted

very true im just starting out and learning hi-lo, it was just a thought I had, all of my local casinos use "suckomatic" ;-) shuffling machines.

The aspers in London has one or to tables on a Friday and Saturday night which are shoe dealt but that's only if these tables are opened up because it is really busy

Quote: cookie1892

all of my local casinos use "suckomatic" ;-) shuffling machines.

Part of the challenge is finding a good game.

Penetration is a huge part of that. If they shuffle every hand - which is what a CSM does - that's lousy penetration.