A new counter has arisen

Hello everyone this will be my first thread on this forum, I just recently got interested in the world of BJ and card counting, got hooked after looking at the math and calculations you gotta do and besides I like the challenge of it. Main reason I got interested in card counting is they allowed my local casinos to use card games, few months back they could only use BJ/Poker machines since card games was prohibited seems is not anymore, I live in Mexico near arizona border. I figure out this game can be beatable easy since they're just starting out and they got no clue about card counters, the pitboss is just a random guy hired to keep security I'm pretty sure he has no knowledge at all of how card counting works or anything besides the fact I live in Mexico they would think no one is capable of card counting lol.

From all my research I've been able to do due to the limited time I got because I'm in school and I play online poker in my free time, my mainly goals are to learn Basic Strategy ( found this one for the 6D they use in all my local casinos don't know if it's the best one) , I chose to learn Hi/Low since it's balanced and not that hard to master I've been counting a deck in about 30-35 seconds, obviously I haven't practiced that much, my main reason for doing this is just for the challenge and maybe do some money on the way.

So far I don't know the exact rules they got because I don't know if it's normal to ask for the rules or if the dealers even know it, from what I scouted I can tell a few rules I've spotted:

Draw all 16's
Stand on all 17's
Split as many times as you want
1-20 spreads ( $25-500$ , that's in mexican pesos )
You can split Aces as many times as you want
Penetration changes from dealer to dealer so far lowest I've seen is about 75%ish to about 85-90%
BJ pays 3:2
It's a 6D shoe game on all the casinos.
There's more slow dealers than fast dealers so counting won't be hard.

I will see if I can ask for all the rules they have but I believe they will just tell me the basic ones, don't even think they know what "surrender" is if I ask if it is allowed. I don't think I'll ever get a heat or anything since the more you bet the better for the casino ( dealers won't say anything or assume something is suspicious because they don't know card counting can be done, etc), everyone is a gambler I haven't seen anyone actually making big spreads when the count is high or anything, don't even think anyone knows about basic strategy everyone is pretty much a gambler and goes with what they think is right or whatever they feel like, the pitboss is just a random dude there chatting with the customers sitting on a table not even watching the tables pretty sure I can get away with counting and wonging in/out as many times as I want without any real issue.

My bankroll isn't very huge, but while I do wanna spend some hours into learning,practicing and playing I just wanna see if I can do it, is just a personal challenge for me but of course doing money on the way would be good :). So any information, help or anything is welcomed I'm just new at card counting and playing BJ so anything helpful to get me going in the right way is welcomed. Thanks

As I said in the PM, with these rules I want your life.

One thing you want to learn early is to not post about penetration levels when you have a good game, especially in a small area/casino unless you want someone to come in and smash and ruin that game. I had an idea in my mind to go check it out until I saw that 500 pesos is less than $39 US dollars.

Quote: Lemieux66

As I said in the PM, with these rules I want your life.

Lol, oh well on my next scouting I plan to ask for the rules they got but I don't expect many answers.

Quote: mcallister3200

One thing you want to learn early is to not post about penetration levels when you have a good game, especially in a small area/casino unless you want someone to come in and smash and ruin that game. I had an idea in my mind to go check it out until I saw that 500 pesos is less than $39 US dollars.

There's larger tables and I didn't exactly said where I live hehe. Even though the penetration changes from dealer to dealer, I'm pretty sure you can go and find same rules/tables at almost any casino in Mexico.

Quote: mcallister3200

One thing you want to learn early is to not post about penetration levels when you have a good game, especially in a small area/casino unless you want someone to come in and smash and ruin that game. I had an idea in my mind to go check it out until I saw that 500 pesos is less than $39 US dollars.

It's a steady grind. But seems well worth it since apparently there's no heat at all.

Worth it if you live near the casino that is.

Might be a little silly question, been reading up a little but is it better to find an empty table to 1v1 dealer or a full table? So far I understand sitting positions doesn't matter it only matter on the count not on basic strategy.

Quote: BK201

Might be a little silly question, been reading up a little but is it better to find an empty table to 1v1 dealer or a full table? So far I understand sitting positions doesn't matter it only matter on the count not on basic strategy.

From what the guys have said (I'm not a counter: and welcome to the forum), it's better to find an empty table when the count is up so you can get the good cards, maybe spreading to a second hand, and better to find a full table if the count is down or if you want other distractions for the pit at the table. So I guess I'd start at a full table to hide a bit, play small until you have a good count, then start rubbing garlic under your armpits or something so people get up. lol...

Quote: beachbumbabs

From what the guys have said (I'm not a counter: and welcome to the forum), it's better to find an empty table when the count is up so you can get the good cards, maybe spreading to a second hand, and better to find a full table if the count is down or if you want other distractions for the pit at the table. So I guess I'd start at a full table to hide a bit, play small until you have a good count, then start rubbing garlic under your armpits or something so people get up. lol...

LOL, oh well pitboss isn't an issue like I said in my OP just a random dude they hired to chat with the regular clients and to be there just for a fancy looking thing.

In a perfect world(you might be in a perfect world lol) you would be alone playing. Big bets with great counts and just leave the table when it's bad. Or in a utopia you can just demand the deck be shuffled when it's negative and they do it...every time!

Lol, I just don't want all this gamblers they just go throw money at the casino, they hit on H16 or even 18, and they hire new dealers everytime so most don't have a clue what they are doing and players tell them how they should deal, how much they win etc.

Quote: BK201

Lol, I just don't want all this gamblers they just go throw money at the casino, they hit on H16 or even 18, and they hire new dealers everytime so most don't have a clue what they are doing and players tell them how they should deal, how much they win etc.

Never hit on 18(or 17) but you should hit on H16 when the count is negative. Any negative.

If you know basic strategy you should know this but as I said on OP , people even hit on 18 or 19 lol, haven't seen anyone play decently at all I think I can crush the game/table at this casino if I put the hours into it.

Quote: BK201

If you know basic strategy you should know this but as I said on OP , people even hit on 18 or 19 lol, haven't seen anyone play decently at all I think I can crush the game/table at this casino if I put the hours into it.

The situation and people you describe is so rediculous that I can hardly believe it.

Quote: Lemieux66

The situation and people you describe is so rediculous that I can hardly believe it.

No seriously saw a dealer, dealing so slow you could count so easily and even gave 1 card to another guy he wasn't supposed to, so they burned that card, yesterday I saw one guy bet 50$ he got paid 25$ and said " hey i'm missing one chip " dealer says oh sorry yes you're right. They just make so many mistakes, doesn't bother me though I'm just focused in learning and crushing.

Quote: Lemieux66

Never hit on 18(or 17) but you should hit on H16 when the count is negative. Any negative.

Umm... you might want to look at the dealer's up card before deciding whether to hit that 16.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Umm... you might want to look at the dealer's up card before deciding whether to hit that 16.

I know I think he got it wrong or I expressed myself wrong, what I was trying to say is I've seen people do that often not myself, of course I'll look the dealers upcard then follow basic strategy.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Umm... you might want to look at the dealer's up card before deciding whether to hit that 16.

Oh yeah lol. Ok if he has a 7-10 and it's negative you hit. Ace as well.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Umm... you might want to look at the dealer's up card before deciding whether to hit that 16.

Wouldn't PGD consider that cheating?

By the way is the chart for a 6D game I posted a good one, or would any Basic Strategy chart will do for a 6D game?

Quote: sodawater

Wouldn't PGD consider that cheating?

Blatant cheating, indeed.

Quote: Lemieux66

Oh yeah lol. Ok if he has a 7-10 and it's negative you hit. Ace as well.

While not technically incorrect, this statement is incredibly misleading.

Are the table limits like that typical for the area? A 40USD limit feels really low, but maybe I suffer too much from #firstworldproblems?

Quote: Lemieux66

) Or in a utopia you can just demand the deck be shuffled when it's negative and they do it...every time!

I was waiting to enter a DD no midshoe entry table recently where a guy lost/pushed every hand since I got there. Eventually, he asked how many hands were left, one, then requested an early shuffle. They refused, so the guy decided to go to the bathroom. And they actually held the table, which now had four people waiting, until he got back. (Everybody moved by then.)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

While not technically incorrect, this statement is incredibly misleading.

How so?

Quote: BK201

If you know basic strategy you should know this but as I said on OP , people even hit on 18 or 19 lol, haven't seen anyone play decently at all I think I can crush the game/table at this casino if I put the hours into it.

I can totally believe this. But I warn you, counting (or any good blackjack) can be seriously threatened by these jerkoffs.

I was in a California casino years ago playing Blackjack. Not counting but playing perfect basic. I had a hundred on the table when this dude pops up and lays ten bucks on last position. I didn't know the guy or care.

I got H17. He got 19. Dealer up card was 10.

I stood. He asked for a card!! Even the dealer asked if he was sure. The guy said he knew what he was doing.

So what happens? This sonofabitch gets a 2 for 21. He starts whooping and hollering that he knew it.

Dealer turns over 4 for 14 and draws 6 for 20. So yep, had that guy not taken the 2 dealer would have busted.

I pointed this out angrily to the guy to which he replied I was just upset because I didn't know how to play. I said he doesn't know how to play and then he replied, "What you talking about? I just won."

Security was already nearby because this was starting to get heated. The guy cost me a hundred bucks. They had to calm me down pointing out the guy was totally in the wrong and they were on my side. Just let it go.

Yeah, had to let a hundred bucks go.

I curbed my blackjack play because of that incident.

Quote: Venthus

Are the table limits like that typical for the area? A 40USD limit feels really low, but maybe I suffer too much from #firstworldproblems?

There are higher limits, those limits I posted are from the lowest table.

Quote: Lemieux66

How so?

Because you also hit most of those when the count is not negative.

Quote: darkoz

I can totally believe this. But I warn you, counting (or any good blackjack) can be seriously threatened by these jerkoffs.

I was in a California casino years ago playing Blackjack. Not counting but playing perfect basic. I had a hundred on the table when this dude pops up and lays ten bucks on last position. I didn't know the guy or care.

I got H17. He got 19. Dealer up card was 10.

I stood. He asked for a card!! Even the dealer asked if he was sure. The guy said he knew what he was doing.

So what happens? This sonofabitch gets a 2 for 21. He starts whooping and hollering that he knew it.

Dealer turns over 4 for 14 and draws 6 for 20. So yep, had that guy not taken the 2 dealer would have busted.

I pointed this out angrily to the guy to which he replied I was just upset because I didn't know how to play. I said he doesn't know how to play and then he replied, "What you talking about? I just won."

Security was already nearby because this was starting to get heated. The guy cost me a hundred bucks. They had to calm me down pointing out the guy was totally in the wrong and they were on my side. Just let it go.

Yeah, had to let a hundred bucks go.

I curbed my blackjack play because of that incident.

Anyone who thinks that the play of others affects their odds does not know how to play either.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Anyone who thinks that the play of others affects their odds does not know how to play either.

anyone who thinks that the sub-optimal play of others in blackjack does not affect their odds does not know how to play either.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Because you also hit most of those when the count is not negative.

Fair enough. OK, you're hitting basically every time it's 7-8...standing at 9 when the TC is 5 or better ....and standing at even or better vs a 10...Vs Ace TC has to be 3 or better to
Stand.

is the limit 500 usd?


whats the highest limit table there

Quote: smallcapgrowth

is the limit 500 usd?


whats the highest limit table there

He said earlier its 25-500 pesos.

Quote: Lemieux66

He said earlier its 25-500 pesos.

Quote: BK201

There are higher limits, those limits I posted are from the lowest table.

So this place might actually be viable for professional play, if the higher limits are just as lax.

Quote: Venthus

So this place might actually be viable for professional play, if the higher limits are just as lax.

I'd love to see this place at least once. Lunatic players and floor people who don't know/don't give a shit.

Quote: darkoz

anyone who thinks that the sub-optimal play of others in blackjack does not affect their odds does not know how to play either.

Yes, because blackjack is a team sport and the casinos arrange the deck so the players will win as long as everyone does the right thing for the table.

Quote: sodawater

Yes, because blackjack is a team sport and the casinos arrange the deck so the players will win as long as everyone does the right thing for the table.

The number of people who believe this is truly startling.

Quote: sodawater

Yes, because blackjack is a team sport and the casinos arrange the deck so the players will win as long as everyone does the right thing for the table.

Great theory, huh. Last week, I hit my soft 18. The player next to me mentioned that I messed up the shoe. He had 14 and decided to stand to against the dealer's 10 to fix the shoe.

It's a damn shame that stupid isn't painful.

Quote: darkoz

anyone who thinks that the sub-optimal play of others in blackjack does not affect their odds does not know how to play either.

Sorry DarkOz, as Axiom pointed out, you are wrong. You may find it controversial, but your assessment is as wrong as the other guys play was.

The sub-optimal play of others can affect the cards that you receive: It can even affect whether you win or lose. IT DOES NOT affect your odds !!!.

Sad that the result here worked against your bankroll and I can see why that would upset you. But that fool's bad play could just have easily saved your hand as ruined it. Overall, it had no effect on the odds, only on the outcome.

The effect of others play changes your outcome every time both good and bad. All that adds up to no change.

Que parte de Mexico es? Yo vivo en Mexicali pero no puedo jugar aquí por W soy dealer y me corren si me descubren jaja asi que quiero ir a otra ciudad a jugar.

Quote: OnceDear

The sub-optimal play of others can affect the cards that you receive: It can even affect whether you win or lose. IT DOES NOT affect your odds !!!.

Not that people making this complaint mean in it in this way most of the time, but it would change your odds because the remaining cards in the deck have now changed since it was a moment ago. Taking the idea to an extreme, there are exactly two cards left in the deck, a 2 and a T. The 2 is drawn. The odds of pulling the T have just gone up dramatically.

Having said that, while I don't really believe in the idea of messing up the flow, I'll leave a table that has a player who repeatedly makes weird moves because I personally find it more irritating to have lost a hand I "should" have won than I derive delight in winning a hand I "should" have lost. But I do so knowing that it doesn't have an impact on the game, in practical terms.

Those sounds like a great BJ set up. It may be set up "nicely" to attract new players if BJ is new. I can usually find the same set up in smaller places that want to attract players or set themselves apart from the "big bad corporate bean counting" casino that add harder rules to improve more of their bottom lines.

Check to see if people (including yourself) are winning over time. If you are following the basic strategy, you should do reasonably well with the set up you describe--even without counting. If you are loosing badly, I would take pause.

Another thing to watch out for is casino cheating. I am not sure how gaming is regulated in Mexico, but even with state regulations from the beginning, I recall a story that a medium casino in Louisiana (over 15 years ago) were lowering player's BJ odds by taking some A's and many 10's out of play. My understanding is that pit bosses get bonuses based on the money that their departments brings in. The pit bosses were good at not getting caught by putting those cards back in the original packets. When the cards are done, and collected (per regulation and audits), the used cards would return back in original packets, and all of the cards would be whole again for any audits.

If the dealers are as dim as you described, it may not be worth checking to see if they are dealing you the "second" card. But, double check some of the dealers that keeps winning money for the casino to see they are feeling or looking for a mark on the cards or for a mirror in the shoe. Obviously, keep in mind on your surroundings (for your safety), and it may be best to quietly get up and simply leave if you are loosing by a cheating (and potentially hostile) people/casino.

(There are other ways of casino cheating that have been posted over time.)

Best of Luck!

Quote: BK201

...

Draw all 16's
Stand on all 17's
Split as many times as you want
1-20 spreads ( $25-500$ , that's in mexican pesos )
You can split Aces as many times as you want
Penetration changes from dealer to dealer so far lowest I've seen is about 75%ish to about 85-90%
BJ pays 3:2
It's a 6D shoe game on all the casinos.
There's more slow dealers than fast dealers so counting won't be hard.

...

Quote: sodawater

Wouldn't PGD consider that cheating, [to look at the dealer's up card?]

Because you're allowed and supposed to look at the up card.

You are allowed to look at any card after it has been properly exposed. The sin is to remember which cards have been played and adjust your bets accordingly.

Quote: BK201

I live in Mexico near arizona border. I figure out this game can be beatable easy since they're just starting out and they got no clue about card counters, the pitboss is just a random guy hired to keep security I'm pretty sure he has no knowledge at all of how card counting works or anything besides the fact I live in Mexico they would think no one is capable of card counting lol.

BK201, I has similar experiences some years ago.
I was living in a country where casinos with Tables where just introduced.
Pit, dealers etc where mostly clueless about card counting.
I learned card counting and I knew of all the card counters playing in the area (less than 5).
Suddenly Pros, semi-pros etc started coming from other countries, playing at higher levels and playing hit and run.
I was mostly playing below the radar.
The casinos after a while being hit hard by some pros and semi-pros learned a bit and started banning card counters.
They where a lot more quick to ban foreign players but I eventually also got banned from a few places.

I think a similar thing will probably happen with Mexico.
Being so close to USm some US counters will start venturing into Mexico.
Some international pros will also start coming.
Eventually the casinos will learn, the bliss will not stay fo ever.

My advise.
Learn as fast as you can.
At your very local places be a bit more conservative (spreads etc) so you last a long time.
For the places that a bit further away, Hit harder.
It will not last forever.

I'll try to record a video of how they deal and how they shuffle, it's really easy to beat this casino in my opinion, haven't had the chance to go and ask the rules personally but I'll go do that today, other thing they do is dealer only has 1 card upside and only that card after every other player has made their decision then they start drawing, for what I've seen I though most casinos had 1 upside card and one downside this doesn't seem the case for this casino. I also saw that you can almost double on any cards not 100% sure but I'll ask today. Hoping I can learn fast and crush the casino before other people do it hehe.

Quote: BK201

I'll try to record a video of how they deal and how they shuffle, it's really easy to beat this casino in my opinion, haven't had the chance to go and ask the rules personally but I'll go do that today, other thing they do is dealer only has 1 card upside and only that card after every other player has made their decision then they start drawing, for what I've seen I though most casinos had 1 upside card and one downside this doesn't seem the case for this casino. I also saw that you can almost double on any cards not 100% sure but I'll ask today. Hoping I can learn fast and crush the casino before other people do it hehe.

Note that if the dealer doesn't take a hole card (and therefore can't check for blackjack) the house edge is increased and you have to change your strategy slightly.

This assumes that it's not an OBO (original bets only) game. The difference is that with OBO, if you split and/or double, and the dealer has blackjack, you lose only your original bet (not the extra splits/doubles). Usually with no-hole-card games, you lose everything.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Note that if the dealer doesn't take a hole card (and therefore can't check for blackjack) the house edge is increased and you have to change your strategy slightly.

This assumes that it's not an OBO (original bets only) game. The difference is that with OBO, if you split and/or double, and the dealer has blackjack, you lose only your original bet (not the extra splits/doubles). Usually with no-hole-card games, you lose everything.

Yeah he doesn't take a hole card, I don't think it's OBO but I'll check today, but I'm pretty sure it's not. What strategy should I work on towards no-hole-card game?

I believe it only happens on 1 casino, I went to check another casino and they had almost same rules with that exception were they did had a hole card. I'm still missing 2 casinos to check but they all seem to have the same shuffle system, more or less the same penetration and more or less the same rules.

Quote: BK201

Yeah he doesn't take a hole card, I don't think it's OBO but I'll check today, but I'm pretty sure it's not. What strategy should I work on towards no-hole-card game?

Use the strategy calculator at WoO for the exact rules of your game. I believe it has an OBO option.

Hello everyone, so I finally went and ask a random dealer to explain me the rules. He told me it's an European Blackjack, so I think I got all the rules they have in this particular casino now:

6D Game
BJ pays 3:2
Stands on soft 17
Double on anything
You can surrender anything except if the dealer has an A
You can double anytime after you split
You can split anything up to 4 times, except A's only up to 1 time I believe
No hole card

And that's it, so far seems good to me but I'm just a beginner on this.
Can anyone tell me the house edge from this rules and also would the WoO strategy calculator work for this rules or is there another one?

Thank for all the responses, I'm hoping I can be ready to hit the tables anytime soon.