card counting. never done it before. KO?
Can anyone direct me to a site that teaches you how to use the KO rookie method?
Taking advice from fellow members and will pursue this strategy
Rich
Do you know basic strategy yet? Thinking about card counting before learning basic strategy is a big mistake. Until you can play perfect basic strategy (like, no mistakes at all, ever) don't bother with KO or any other system.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceJust buy the KO book. It's not expensive and if you're going to use it as a system, it's useful as a reference.
Do you know basic strategy yet? Thinking about card counting before learning basic strategy is a big mistake. Until you can play perfect basic strategy (like, no mistakes at all, ever) don't bother with KO or any other system.
I agree. My plan is learn basic strategy. Then learn KO. While I learn bj basic strategy id like to learn VP strategy
Quote: richbailey86I agree. My plan is learn basic strategy. Then learn KO. While I learn bj basic strategy id like to learn VP strategy
I'd recommend learning one thing at a time.
Blackjack is much, much easier. There are differences for different rules, but they tend to be minor.
VP has different strategies for different games, although, if you learn JoB, it will make it easier to learn other similar games (by similar, I mean, non-wildcard games with "high cards")
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'd recommend learning one thing at a time.
Blackjack is much, much easier. There are differences for different rules, but they tend to be minor.
VP has different strategies for different games, although, if you learn JoB, it will make it easier to learn other similar games (by similar, I mean, non-wildcard games with "high cards")
Do I need to purchase the KO book or can it be found and printed online. If the strategy works I dont feel bad not paying for it im sure the guys well off
Quote: richbailey86Do I need to purchase the KO book or can it be found and printed online. If the strategy works I dont feel bad not paying for it im sure the guys well off
KO gets the money. Rookie is a little weak, but it gets the money. You can start with rookie and move up to preferred later, once you are comfortable with rookie.
Having said that, getting the book (through legal or illegal means) is a waste of time until you learn basic strategy. You are putting the cart before the horse. Once you can play basic strategy perfectly in a casino environment, then it's time to obtain a copy of the book. And, I'm certainly not going to help you steal it, although others might.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceKO gets the money. Rookie is a little weak, but it gets the money. You can start with rookie and move up to preferred later, once you are comfortable with rookie.
Having said that, getting the book (through legal or illegal means) is a waste of time until you learn basic strategy. You are putting the cart before the horse. Once you can play basic strategy perfectly in a casino environment, then it's time to obtain a copy of the book. And, I'm certainly not going to help you steal it, although others might.
No intentions to steal. Didnt know it was a paid only strategy. Ill get it on amazon after I master basic strategy. Does basic strat get the money as u put it or is it more of a break even
Quote: richbailey86No intentions to steal. Didnt know it was a paid only strategy. Ill get it on amazon after I master basic strategy. Does basic strat get the money as u put it or is it more of a break even
I'm pretty sure that someone can just tell you the strategy, but obviously the book is copyrighted.
Basic strategy will have you playing at a slight loss. At a "good" game, you will be losing between 0.2% and 0.7% of your bets on average, depending on the rules.
The reason that you need to learn basic strategy is that most of the time (all of the time when using KO rookie) you will play your hands according to basic strategy. KO Rookie just allows you to identify when you have an edge in the game and bet more when you have the advantage and less when you don't.
Blackjack is different from games like roulette because it is dealt from a deck or shoe which gets depleted, so the edge is not the same on every hand. If you remove enough small cards from the deck, you have the advantage. But, betting more when you have the advantage doesn't help you if you play the hand incorrectly and give the advantage back -- your advantage only exists if you play correctly.
Quote: richbailey86I have a lot to do. At this point my bankroll would support VP so I think my game plan is to learn a VP JoB strategy then move onto bj basic. Committing to this
If you can find good VP plays, that's probably true.
The problem is that most VP has you playing at a slight disadvantage (eg, a little less than 0.5% at 9/6 JoB, if you pay perfectly). In order to beat the game, you need to find a casino that will give you back more than 0.5% of your action, in the form of freeplay, promotions, etc.
The nice thing about BJ is that a decent game is beatable without any promotions or anything like that. Promotions are always nice, of course (more money is always better) but they are not necessary -- you can just walk in and play, and have an advantage in the game itself.
The downside of BJ is that until you have some kind of a bankroll it's not really playable. I would say that you need a minimum of $5k, and that assumes that you can find a good game with $5 minimums (those do exist in some places). And you will not be earning much -- maybe $20 per hour if you are lucky (Specifically, if you spread $5 to $50 in a good 6-deck game, your expected profit might be $20 per hour. There are probably easier ways to make $20 per hour, too. I'd say that 100 big bets is a minimum bankroll to take the game seriously, which implies a minimum $5k bankroll)
Quote: richbailey86Not much of a photographic memory. Going to be hard to memorize basic strategy
basic strategy is very logical and you don't need much of a memory to know it cold.
Quote: sodawaterbasic strategy is very logical and you don't need much of a memory to know it cold.
Also, if you can't memorize basic strategy, you don't have a hope of memorizing a video poker strategy. Even a simple VP game is much, much, much more complicated than blackjack.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf you can find good VP plays, that's probably true.
The problem is that most VP has you playing at a slight disadvantage (eg, a little less than 0.5% at 9/6 JoB, if you pay perfectly). In order to beat the game, you need to find a casino that will give you back more than 0.5% of your action, in the form of freeplay, promotions, etc.
The nice thing about BJ is that a decent game is beatable without any promotions or anything like that. Promotions are always nice, of course (more money is always better) but they are not necessary -- you can just walk in and play, and have an advantage in the game itself.
The downside of BJ is that until you have some kind of a bankroll it's not really playable. I would say that you need a minimum of $5k, and that assumes that you can find a good game with $5 minimums (those do exist in some places). And you will not be earning much -- maybe $20 per hour if you are lucky (Specifically, if you spread $5 to $50 in a good 6-deck game, your expected profit might be $20 per hour. There are probably easier ways to make $20 per hour, too. I'd say that 100 big bets is a minimum bankroll to take the game seriously, which implies a minimum $5k bankroll)
Good to know. Mohegan always has $5. My fear is getting caught. From what I heard if they suspect you're counting in AC they cant legally kick you out
Quote: richbailey86Good to know. Mohegan always has $5. My fear is getting caught. From what I heard if they suspect you're counting in AC they cant legally kick you out
A casino is not going to care if you are spreading $5 to $50.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceA casino is not going to care if you are spreading $5 to $50.
that depends on who you ask ;-)
Quote: richbailey86Good to know. Mohegan always has $5. My fear is getting caught. From what I heard if they suspect you're counting in AC they cant legally kick you out
Those $5 tables are H17.
Quote: 1BBThose $5 tables are H17.
Mohegan will do more than just kick you out.
Quote: GWAEMohegan will do more than just kick you out.
So then AC is the only place where your protected by law?
Quote: richbailey86So then AC is the only place where your protected by law?
Some places in northern Europe too
Quote: sodawaterSome places in northern Europe too
I need this cleared up for me. In vegas if you are suspected of counting u get the boot. In AC u dont get the boot but u get heat. Right? What about CT?
Thanks
Quote: richbailey86I need this cleared up for me. In vegas if you are suspected of counting u get the boot. In AC u dont get the boot but u get heat. Right? What about CT?
Thanks
In NJ, thanks to Ken Uston , the state supreme court ruled that casinos may not ban card counters. That means they can't kick them out...ask them to leave....or even ask them to stop playing. All they can do is shuffle whenever they want and restrict your betting. Or if you're unlucky they can alert rival casinos to freeze your $300 comp balance because they spotted you spreading red chips.
I'll let the ct players answer for ct....
Quote: richbailey86I need this cleared up for me. In vegas if you are suspected of counting u get the boot. In AC u dont get the boot but u get heat. Right? What about CT?
Thanks
In AC they cannot kick you out for counting, and any other casino in the US can kick you out if they wish.
That does not mean that they will kick you out if they suspect you of counting, only that they can.
Quote: sodawaterIn NJ, thanks to Ken Uston , the state supreme court ruled that casinos may not ban card counters. That means they can't kick them out...ask them to leave....or even ask them to stop playing. All they can do is shuffle whenever they want and restrict your betting. Or if you're unlucky they can alert rival casinos to freeze your $300 comp balance because they spotted you spreading red chips.
I'll let the ct players answer for ct....
Ok so AC casinos cant boot you but cant they say you are not welcome here? Or make something up and kick you out?
Quote: richbailey86Ok so AC casinos cant boot you but cant they say you are not welcome here? Or make something up and kick you out?
No they can't do either of those things. They might not give you free meals or rooms though. But as long as they want to do business with the public they must let you play.
Quote: sodawaterNo they can't do either of those things. They might not give you free meals or rooms though. But as long as they want to do business with the public they must let you play.
My goal is to be prepared and ready to go by fall. AC it is
Quote: richbailey86My goal is to be prepared and ready to go by fall. AC it is
Ac blackjack games are not very good for counters though
Quote: sodawaterAc blackjack games are not very good for counters though
I have a question about that. I've never been to AC. What are the best rules that you can get as a black-chip player?
Quote: richbailey86I need this cleared up for me. In vegas if you are suspected of counting u get the boot. In AC u dont get the boot but u get heat. Right? What about CT?
Thanks
Flat bet, no more blackjack, trespassed. If you're not in the high limit pits these options are rarely used. Always remember that you are on an Indian reservation.
Quote: sodawaterAc blackjack games are not very good for counters though
So what ur saying is goto vegas and be stealth
Quote: 1BBFlat bet, no more blackjack, trespassed. If you're not in the high limit pits these options are rarely used. Always remember that you are on an Indian reservation.
"Always remember ur on an indian reservation"
What does that mean. Being new to this i need that spelled out
I know its an indian reservation but whats that mean in regards to card counting? Basement and torture? Cement shoes?
Quote: richbailey86"Always remember ur on an indian reservation"
What does that mean. Being new to this i need that spelled out
It means they can do whatever the f*** they want, included but not limited to taking all your money and not cashing your chips. An Indian reservation is a sovereign nation. They make their own rules.
Quote: RSIt means they can do whatever the f*** they want, included but not limited to taking all your money and not cashing your chips. An Indian reservation is a sovereign nation. They make their own rules.
I figured thats what he meant. Cement shoessssss
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have a question about that. I've never been to AC. What are the best rules that you can get as a black-chip player?
4.5/6D, S17, Split to 4 total hands, DAS, 1 card to split aces. No surrender.
Quote: sodawater4.5/6D, S17, Split to 4 total hands, DAS, 1 card to split aces. No surrender.
No surrender? 75% on 6d? No thanks!
Quote: richbailey86So the only place where you can do this with no consequence they changed the rules to make it hard. You guys must be sneaky to do this in vegas. Look at affleck
It's not illegal to count cards anywhere in the U.S. So what if you're playing in a non-NJ casino and they ask you to leave? Is that the end of the world?
You should also check out PA's BJ games. There are table games all along the east coast now.
AC originally went to 4-deck shoes when the Uston decision came down. Now most games are 8-deck. It's got nothing to do with protected card counting and everything to do with greed and a historical lack of competition.
Quote: RSIt means they can do whatever the f*** they want, included but not limited to taking all your money and not cashing your chips. An Indian reservation is a sovereign nation. They make their own rules.
That is nonsense. They exist only due to a compact with the state. Sovereign nation, my ass. If they were a sovereign nation they would be able to open a casino without such an agreement.
Quote: richbailey86I need this cleared up for me. In vegas if you are suspected of counting u get the boot. In AC u dont get the boot but u get heat. Right? What about CT?
I've played at Mohegan tables where they doubled the table limit and doubled it again when obvious card counters requested it.
That's how much they worry about counting.
They have a 61% penetration and they regard card counters as human ATM's.
You have nothing to worry about.
Quote: sodawaterIt's not illegal to count cards anywhere in the U.S. So what if you're playing in a non-NJ casino and they ask you to leave? Is that the end of the world?
You should also check out PA's BJ games. There are table games all along the east coast now.
AC originally went to 4-deck shoes when the Uston decision came down. Now most games are 8-deck. It's got nothing to do with protected card counting and everything to do with greed and a historical lack of competition.
How are the PA casinos for this?
Quote: richbailey86How are the PA casinos for this?
Better than AC.
Quote: sodawaterBetter than AC.
Interesting. Better rules I guess
What PA casinos. Never knew PA had casinos...
God damn it NY whats wrong. We have a full casino in Queens just waiting for tables
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat is nonsense. They exist only due to a compact with the state. Sovereign nation, my ass. If they were a sovereign nation they would be able to open a casino without such an agreement.
Mohegan Sun police just had their powers expanded by the state. They are now real cops. A similar agreement with Foxwoods is pending.
Get counting completely out of your mind for the moment.Quote: richbailey86My goal is to be prepared and ready to go by fall. AC it is
Learn basic strategy cold. So cold you don't even have to think about it.
Go to WoO and see the beautiful strategy cards the Wiz has made available, select the one for the specific rules such as 8 deck/stand 17. Practice by using flash cards, dealing actual cards or BS instructional software. Whatever works for you. Practice some more. BS can be mastered in an afternoon. When you feel you are ready, go to a casino, any casino, and play a low limit table, flat betting.
That exercise will convince you that you do not yet know basic strategy cold. Practice some more.
Rinse, repeat.
You will now understand two things: why you need to know BS cold so you are not thinking under actual casino conditions, and how hard counting will be if you don't know BS cold.
Quote: 1BBMohegan Sun police just had their powers expanded by the state. They are now real cops. A similar agreement with Foxwoods is pending.
That does not make them a sovereign nation. France is a sovereign nation. You will notice that their police do not need permission from a US state to be considered "real cops". That is what makes them sovereign -- they can do things like this without the permission of other nations.
They are still subject to the criminal laws of the state that they are in. Having to follow someone else's laws makes you not sovereign.
Didn't an Indian casino lose a huge lawsuit for detaining that little old lady after she found a quarter on the ground? The one who Bob N. represented. If they are sovereign, why did they have to answer to someone else's courts?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6HjwzJyCQlQ
