Counting Down a Deck
I noticed something just now while counting down a single deck at the kitchen table. I was flipping the cards over one at a time, but I was flipping them faster and faster after each shuffle and eventually got going so fast I could barely count each card. But I noticed something strange and awesome. I can still keep count. My brain was giving me the count after every fourth or fifth card, like I was storing them in my memory and doing the math every time my finger slipped while flipping a card and I had an extra split second to think. Have any of you guys noticed your brain doing the same thing? I feel like this could be really really good in a one-on-one situation with a super fast dealer.
Just came off the biggest loss of my young career, lost my whole trip bankroll on the strip playing a DD S17 game that I thought was going to be a goldmine. Tried to move from green chips to black chips... Stupid mistake. But the fire is burning in my belly and my next trip to vegas is already scheduled. Bring it on!
Also in light of the recent responses to the new counter thread, I can count a deck in 19 seconds now!!! lol
I was playing a 1-8 spread, $25 base and started with $7500.
I got up to $10,500 and bumped to $100 base, 1-8 spread. Hit a bad run, including a four-way split with two double downs and lost all four hands with 4 unit bet out. It was rough. Tried to stay at $100 level and by then was on tilt and chasing my loss until the casino had all my money.
Next trip plan to play same game and just stay at the green chip level and be happy with whatever happens. I'm not ready for black chip action yet.
Are you good @ math?Quote: RevJordanI've been reading a lot on the boards, appreciate all the good information. I don't post a lot yet because I still feel like I'm in the stage of learning and not having much to add.
I noticed something just now while counting down a single deck at the kitchen table. I was flipping the cards over one at a time, but I was flipping them faster and faster after each shuffle and eventually got going so fast I could barely count each card. But I noticed something strange and awesome. I can still keep count. My brain was giving me the count after every fourth or fifth card, like I was storing them in my memory and doing the math every time my finger slipped while flipping a card and I had an extra split second to think. Have any of you guys noticed your brain doing the same thing? I feel like this could be really really good in a one-on-one situation with a super fast dealer.
Just came off the biggest loss of my young career, lost my whole trip bankroll on the strip playing a DD S17 game that I thought was going to be a goldmine. Tried to move from green chips to black chips... Stupid mistake. But the fire is burning in my belly and my next trip to vegas is already scheduled. Bring it on!
Also in light of the recent responses to the new counter thread, I can count a deck in 19 seconds now!!! lol
Quote: RevJordanI can count past 10 without using my toes!
There's 4 seconds of my life I will never get back...
But, that's not really what I want to talk about, RevJ. I want to talk about your betting levels compared to bankroll. With a $7500 BR, spreading $25-$200 is severely over-betting. And THAT is a recipe for disaster. Spreading $100-$800 is not just much worse, but takes you out of the 'playing with and advantage' spectrum, completely. At that level you are just gambling. No different than anyone else at the table.
A very loose rule is that your BR should be 100 top wagers, or going backwards, your top wager should be 1/100th (1%) of your bankroll. So with a $7500 BR, your top wager should be $75. You should be spreading $10-$75 or $10-$80.
Now you don't seem too concerned about losing this first $7500 bankroll. Perhaps it is easily re-plenishible. Maybe add another collection plate to the church service? lol. However you raise your next BR, I would scale things down to proper size, if you want to avoid the same fate.
Quote: RevJordanYes, I overbet.
I was playing a 1-8 spread, $25 base and started with $7500.
I got up to $10,500 and bumped to $100 base, 1-8 spread. Hit a bad run, including a four-way split with two double downs and lost all four hands with 4 unit bet out. It was rough. Tried to stay at $100 level and by then was on tilt and chasing my loss until the casino had all my money.
Next trip plan to play same game and just stay at the green chip level and be happy with whatever happens. I'm not ready for black chip action yet.
If I'm reading this correctly, you began with a $25-$200 spread working off a $7500 bankroll. That's an acceptable TRIP bankroll of 37 max bets. So far, so good. Now what went wrong? Brimming with confidence, you then spread $100-$800 working off the newly found $10,500 bankroll. That's a dismal 13 max bets and is indeed a recipe for disaster as you now know.
You must lower your bet as your bankroll dwindles and that's what I hope you'll remember on your next trip. You don't need any fancy math. If you lose half your bankroll cut your bet in half and don't begin a new shuffle if you can't cover the doubles and splits.
I would hope that your total bankroll is several times the $7500 trip bankroll. It really is all about the bankroll.
Yeah, I notice that occasionally, particularly when playing Bingo Quickies. The weird thing is, I can actually think about the buffering thing while its happening.
Quote: RevJordanI've been reading a lot on the boards, appreciate all the good information. I don't post a lot yet because I still feel like I'm in the stage of learning and not having much to add.
I noticed something just now while counting down a single deck at the kitchen table. I was flipping the cards over one at a time, but I was flipping them faster and faster after each shuffle and eventually got going so fast I could barely count each card. But I noticed something strange and awesome. I can still keep count. My brain was giving me the count after every fourth or fifth card, like I was storing them in my memory and doing the math every time my finger slipped while flipping a card and I had an extra split second to think. Have any of you guys noticed your brain doing the same thing? I feel like this could be really really good in a one-on-one situation with a super fast dealer.
Just came off the biggest loss of my young career, lost my whole trip bankroll on the strip playing a DD S17 game that I thought was going to be a goldmine. Tried to move from green chips to black chips... Stupid mistake. But the fire is burning in my belly and my next trip to vegas is already scheduled. Bring it on!
Also in light of the recent responses to the new counter thread, I can count a deck in 19 seconds now!!! lol
I think your second paragraph contradicts this prevailing opinion that counting at home is worthless.
I can count a deck sub 12 seconds at the drop of a hat. 9.3 seconds is my personal record. Plenty of my 10 second counts were done while singing along with the radio or answering questions people were asking me. And working on this allowed me to do the same thing you're finding - sort of saving the cards in your head to be figured out later.
Now, that doesn't make me a good card counter. Really, it is but a small part of what counting cards entails. But it damn sure doesn't hurt to have that skill. Good games are dying by the thousands, and you need to be prepared to pounce when you find one. Imagine finding that juicy game, but it has one of those dealers that thinks he gets paid by the hand. If you can't count fast, that's a missed opportunity. Or you find another good game, but it's rife with distraction. Dealer's chatty, some drunk is being belligerent, wifey calls you on the phone. Being able to "store" those cards just long enough to respond to a question ain't a bad talent to have.
Quote: 1BBIf I'm reading this correctly, you began with a $25-$200 spread working off a $7500 bankroll. That's an acceptable TRIP bankroll of 37 max bets. So far, so good. Now what went wrong? Brimming with confidence, you then spread $100-$800 working off the newly found $10,500 bankroll. That's a dismal 13 max bets and is indeed a recipe for disaster as you now know.
You must lower your bet as your bankroll dwindles and that's what I hope you'll remember on your next trip. You don't need any fancy math. If you lose half your bankroll cut your bet in half and don't begin a new shuffle if you can't cover the doubles and splits.
I would hope that your total bankroll is several times the $7500 trip bankroll. It really is all about the bankroll.
He did say TRIP bankroll in his post and I missed that, so I am a little embarrassed. If this trip bankroll is only part of his total bankroll, it makes what I said concerning top wager and bet spread meaningless.
Quote: FaceI think your second paragraph contradicts this prevailing opinion that counting at home is worthless.
I can count a deck sub 12 seconds at the drop of a hat. 9.3 seconds is my personal record. Plenty of my 10 second counts were done while singing along with the radio or answering questions people were asking me. And working on this allowed me to do the same thing you're finding - sort of saving the cards in your head to be figured out later.
Now, that doesn't make me a good card counter. Really, it is but a small part of what counting cards entails. But it damn sure doesn't hurt to have that skill. Good games are dying by the thousands, and you need to be prepared to pounce when you find one. Imagine finding that juicy game, but it has one of those dealers that thinks he gets paid by the hand. If you can't count fast, that's a missed opportunity. Or you find another good game, but it's rife with distraction. Dealer's chatty, some drunk is being belligerent, wifey calls you on the phone. Being able to "store" those cards just long enough to respond to a question ain't a bad talent to have.
Darryl Purpose, Blackjack Hall of Fame member and former Uston team member, is said to hold the record at 8 seconds with perfect accuracy. He, himself, says he was more in the ten second range. He has also called it a party trick that doesn't mean that much in a live game.
There are several ideas on how a deck or decks should be counted down and every one of them will produce a different time. Do you flip cards one at a time? Do you have someone else flip them? Do you fan them like counting $100 bills? Does everyone use the same count?
I have always thought it was overrated but I would never tell anyone not to do it. If you know basic strategy cold and know all your indicies go ahead and try to beat the world record but if you're that bored why not spend your valuable time learning a stronger count? That is something that will actually get you a few more pennies.
Quote: 1BB
I have always thought it was overrated but I would never tell anyone not to do it. If you know basic strategy cold and know all your indicies go ahead and try to beat the world record but if you're that bored why not spend your valuable time learning a stronger count? That is something that will actually get you a few more pennies.
Please keep in mind that my following question is coming from someone who has (comparatively) only dappled in card counting, but: Do you not think the ability to count down a deck quickly using the method of fanning them might make a player more efficient at counting his own table but also keeping a separate count of a nearby table without having to be as blatantly staring at the other table so often? If you could basically just glance at another table for two-three seconds and pick up the count (or change to the count) it seems that would be useful.
Quote: 1BBDarryl Purpose, Blackjack Hall of Fame member and former Uston team member, is said to hold the record at 8 seconds with perfect accuracy. He, himself, says he was more in the ten second range. He has also called it a party trick that doesn't mean that much in a live game.
There are several ideas on how a deck or decks should be counted down and every one of them will produce a different time. Do you flip cards one at a time? Do you have someone else flip them? Do you fan them like counting $100 bills? Does everyone use the same count?
I have always thought it was overrated but I would never tell anyone not to do it. If you know basic strategy cold and know all your indicies go ahead and try to beat the world record but if you're that bored why not spend your valuable time learning a stronger count? That is something that will actually get you a few more pennies.
I fan them, thumb to thumb, the way you would if you were quickly trying to pick a joker out of the deck before playing at home. I do it physically as fast as I can, regardless if I can keep the count. I just kept doing it to force my brain to work faster. As a result, like Rev found, your brain will store clumps. Couldn't that be useful in cover? Instead of glaring at the table non stop, to just glance, turn and have a conversation, and still keep the count?
Anyways, I agree. Of all the things to learn that'll put money in your pocket, speed is down the list. I got >$6k in free trips and hotels for going so fast. I suspect a counter would not get the same returns.
The thing often overlooked is that the PLAYER controls the speed of the game, NOT the dealer.
you count just the pip cards, then...? :-)Quote: Mission146only dappled in card counting
Quote: Mission146Please keep in mind that my following question is coming from someone who has (comparatively) only dappled in card counting, but: Do you not think the ability to count down a deck quickly using the method of fanning them might make a player more efficient at counting his own table but also keeping a separate count of a nearby table without having to be as blatantly staring at the other table so often? If you could basically just glance at another table for two-three seconds and pick up the count (or change to the count) it seems that would be useful.
I think in order to have the effect you describe, you would require natural talent and constant practice. In my opinion, this would be a waste of time unless you were already a master of the trade and had nothing else to work on. I think counting your own table over time is what makes you more efficient at counting your own table.
Quote: SonuvabishI think in order to have the effect you describe, you would require natural talent and constant practice. In my opinion, this would be a waste of time unless you were already a master of the trade and had nothing else to work on. I think counting your own table over time is what makes you more efficient at counting your own table.
I basically asked the question because (based on previous posts) it seems that keeping the count of a separate table and table-hopping as appropriate seems to be a pretty major part of KewlJ's game, if not others. It's essentially the same effect as having a spotter at the other table, if not slightly less accurate than a spotter probably would be.
Quote: Mission146I basically asked the question because (based on previous posts) it seems that keeping the count of a separate table and table-hopping as appropriate seems to be a pretty major part of KewlJ's game, if not others. It's essentially the same effect as having a spotter at the other table, if not slightly less accurate than a spotter probably would be.
Can't speak for Kewl, but the lack of accuracy is why I ignore other tables altogether. I do table-hop to fresh shoes tho.
Quote: Mission146I basically asked the question because (based on previous posts) it seems that keeping the count of a separate table and table-hopping as appropriate seems to be a pretty major part of KewlJ's game, if not others. It's essentially the same effect as having a spotter at the other table, if not slightly less accurate than a spotter probably would be.
Counting separate tables is a different skill set. The main things you need to learn to do it are how to count a card by pips, how to look at the other table without showing that you are, and learning how to keep an additional number you are counting without mixing things up. This is one reason why the cancellation method is vital to have down because trying to hold a +2 in your head then have a 0 incrementing with each card can be risky without a lot of practice.
Now if someone wanted to countdown a deck to practice two tables that could be useful. Have two decks of cards count one part way move to the other then repeat. That's how I did it anyway.
Quote: Mission146Please keep in mind that my following question is coming from someone who has (comparatively) only dappled in card counting, but: Do you not think the ability to count down a deck quickly using the method of fanning them might make a player more efficient at counting his own table but also keeping a separate count of a nearby table without having to be as blatantly staring at the other table so often? If you could basically just glance at another table for two-three seconds and pick up the count (or change to the count) it seems that would be useful.
I use the cancellation method that kewlj mentioned. Start counting when the second card is dealt to the first player or wait until all the cards are dealt. We're not talking about full tables as we strive to play with as few players as possible. If you are staring at the table, you are doing it wrong.
Wonging in is not a big part of my game but I do use it. One benefit is that it can make your spread appear smaller.
Quote: 1BBI use the cancellation method that kewlj mentioned. Start counting when the second card is dealt to the first player or wait until all the cards are dealt. We're not talking about full tables as we strive to play with as few players as possible. If you are staring at the table, you are doing it wrong.
I don't think staring at the table and cards as they come out IDENTIFIES you as a counter. I used to think that, but really, if you take a look at the other people at the table, almost everyone is watching the dealer deal every card, their heads turning in unison. If you are doing that 'count every single card as it comes out thing', you are doing what most other players are also doing. But if you use the cancellation method and can turn your attention away from the table while the dealer is dealing, looking around at the sports on the TV screen, the next table, a pretty girl walking by (at least pretend interest), and then focus on the table at the last second, quickly cancelling cards, I think it can help DISMISS you as a counter to anyone that is paying attention.
The other thing about using the cancellation method is that it allows you to focus less time on the table and counting, which could free you up to track a second game, as has already been mentioned, but it also frees you up just to better be aware of your surroundings. Maybe you will notice that you have drawn the attention of pit folks, when you otherwise wouldn't have noticed. Maybe worse than that, you will see an approaching backoff coming, and exit BEFORE the person in question can get to you. Maybe you will be more aware of a suspicious and/or undesirable person lurking about.
Quote: kewljI don't think staring at the table and cards as they come out IDENTIFIES you as a counter. I used to think that, but really, if you take a look at the other people at the table, almost everyone is watching the dealer deal every card, their heads turning in unison. If you are doing that 'count every single card as it comes out thing', you are doing what most other players are also doing. But if you use the cancellation method and can turn your attention away from the table while the dealer is dealing, looking around at the sports on the TV screen, the next table, a pretty girl walking by (at least pretend interest), and then focus on the table at the last second, quickly cancelling cards, I think it can help DISMISS you as a counter to anyone that is paying attention.
The other thing about using the cancellation method is that it allows you to focus less time on the table and counting, which could free you up to track a second game, as has already been mentioned, but it also frees you up just to better be aware of your surroundings. Maybe you will notice that you have drawn the attention of pit folks, when you otherwise wouldn't have noticed. Maybe worse than that, you will see an approaching backoff coming, and exit BEFORE the person in question can get to you. Maybe you will be more aware of a suspicious and/or undesirable person lurking about.
I use the cancellation method as well. Normally I do not like playing heads up, I prefer to have one other player at the table to help me keep the dealer occupied. I play my hand, then shuffle chips and look around at the pretty girls (read that as count my chips and calculate the TC and take time to think). I wait until the next round is fully dealt, then take count of the dealt cards, adjust my TC accordingly and make my play. It seems to work well so far.
Regarding my bankroll, yes that $7500 was a TRIP bankroll, which was roughly 1/4 of my total bankroll. I feel like that $25-200 spread was the sweet spot for my roughly $30K total bank. I just got excited and everything was going so good... Too good. I had just finished reading Burning the Tables by Ian Andersen the day before the trip and I have to say it was great! But I think it got me too excited lol
Quote: kewljThe other thing about using the cancellation method is that it allows you to focus less time on the table and counting, which could free you up to track a second game, as has already been mentioned, but it also frees you up just to better be aware of your surroundings. Maybe you will notice that you have drawn the attention of pit folks, when you otherwise wouldn't have noticed. Maybe worse than that, you will see an approaching backoff coming, and exit BEFORE the person in question can get to you. Maybe you will be more aware of a suspicious and/or undesirable person lurking about.
I agree. The thing about being realy quick in counting (cancellation method or whatever) is not that dealers are so fast that you need this skill to cope, BUT it frees up time to do lots of other things.
And one of the things is to check the opposition. Sometimes it feels to me that I spend most of the time checking what the Pit boss and other casino personell are doing (are they speaking on the phone about me, are they looking at me with suspicion etc) as opposed to counting.
And when I see a civilian that cannot keep up with the tally of his 3 card hand and stares at it wondering whether it adds up to 15 or 16, I wonder what is he doing all this time. If I did not count, check what the Pitboss is doing or do any of the other thing I do on a BJ table, I would have so much spare time I would get really bored or fall asleep on the table.
Quote: AceTwoI agree. The thing about being realy quick in counting (cancellation method or whatever) is not that dealers are so fast that you need this skill to cope, BUT it frees up time to do lots of other things.
And one of the things is to check the opposition. Sometimes it feels to me that I spend most of the time checking what the Pit boss and other casino personell are doing (are they speaking on the phone about me, are they looking at me with suspicion etc) as opposed to counting.
And when I see a civilian that cannot keep up with the tally of his 3 card hand and stares at it wondering whether it adds up to 15 or 16, I wonder what is he doing all this time. If I did not count, check what the Pitboss is doing or do any of the other thing I do on a BJ table, I would have so much spare time I would get really bored or fall asleep on the table.
You can always try a more difficult count to relieve the boredom.
Quote: AceTwoAnd when I see a civilian that cannot keep up with the tally of his 3 card hand and stares at it wondering whether it adds up to 15 or 16, I wonder what is he doing all this time.
Maybe he is trying to calculate the TC.
Quote: 1BBYou can always try a more difficult count to relieve the boredom.
Try counting a side bet. The counts are usually more difficult and the volatility gives the game some spice.
Quote: 1BBYou can always try a more difficult count to relieve the boredom.
Precisely. The only reason to be bored is if the dealer is a talker.
Quote: AceTwoI still feel like I'm in the stage of learning and not having much to add.
To this
Quote: AceTwoI agree. The thing about being realy quick in counting (cancellation method or whatever) is not that dealers are so fast that you need this skill to cope, BUT it frees up time to do lots of other things.
And one of the things is to check the opposition. Sometimes it feels to me that I spend most of the time checking what the Pit boss and other casino personell are doing (are they speaking on the phone about me, are they looking at me with suspicion etc) as opposed to counting.
And when I see a civilian that cannot keep up with the tally of his 3 card hand and stares at it wondering whether it adds up to 15 or 16, I wonder what is he doing all this time. If I did not count, check what the Pitboss is doing or do any of the other thing I do on a BJ table, I would have so much spare time I would get really bored or fall asleep on the table.
Sounds more like bragging then learning.
Speed shmeed, other things are way more important.
This topic came up on another forum where in a contest a guy slammed through a deck of cards in something like 8.6 seconds and yells out "Plus one!" Three cards were held back and it became apparent to me that he was using Hi-Lo with an Ace counting the same as a Ten... So lame... so sloppy and ineffective... spiffy for demonstrating that you could keep up with a dealer that can deal out an entire 6 deck shoe in 2 minutes or less but a little out of touch with the real world.
Quote: AxelWolfYou went from this
To this
Sounds more like bragging then learning.
Speed shmeed, other things are way more important.
Quote: RevJordanI've been reading a lot on the boards, appreciate all the good information. I don't post a lot yet because I still feel like I'm in the stage of learning and not having much to add.
I was wondering whether I said such thing. Its not a thing I would have said. Doing a search, I see this is a quote from RevJordan. So I have no idea how you got that I had such a quote.
And if you read what I said, I did NOT say that with counting etc I feel boredom. I said if I did not count or do other things (meaning playing like a civilian), THEN I will feel boredom.
And I have no interest in bragging. In actual fact, these days I do not play much. Do not have the time or the opportunity to travel a lot because of business and family commitments. And that's one of the reasons why I write on this forum (miss the whole thing). When I used to play seriously (still not pro) and often I mostly read stuff on BJ21 and wrote little on BJ21. And from that little writing on BJ21, I got once a 'Post of the Month'. So I kind of know a little what I am talking about, even though these days I do not practise that a lot.
Quote: TarzanThis topic came up on another forum where in a contest a guy slammed through a deck of cards in something like 8.6 seconds and yells out "Plus one!" Three cards were held back and it became apparent to me that he was using Hi-Lo with an Ace counting the same as a Ten... So lame... so sloppy and ineffective... spiffy for demonstrating that you could keep up with a dealer that can deal out an entire 6 deck shoe in 2 minutes or less but a little out of touch with the real world.
Hi-Lo has very high betting correlation in a shoe game. I wouldn't call it ineffective. Pick a count that balances ease-of-use against effectiveness for your game.
Quote: dwheatleyHi-Lo has very high betting correlation in a shoe game. I wouldn't call it ineffective. Pick a count that balances ease-of-use against effectiveness for your game.
Just a little background here, for those of you not familiar. Tarzan is a long-time professional player, that uses a very complicated, I am not even sure what level count, of his own making, which has been dubbed "the Tarzan Count".
I myself am a pretty big proponent of simplicity and simple level one counts like hi-lo, which I use after having experimented with a level 2 count for over a years time and I recommend this simplistic approach for most players. Tarzan is one of the few that I know, with such unique talents, that playing an extremely complicated count, works. Anything less would be a waste of his talents. Although, it irritates me just a bit, when he looks down on those of us that play level one counts, using words like "lame", based on his abilities I do understand it and I try not to take offense. Lol.
ACE TWO, I APOLOGIZEQuote: AceTwoI was wondering whether I said such thing. Its not a thing I would have said. Doing a search, I see this is a quote from RevJordan. So I have no idea how you got that I had such a quote.
And if you read what I said, I did NOT say that with counting etc I feel boredom. I said if I did not count or do other things (meaning playing like a civilian), THEN I will feel boredom.
And I have no interest in bragging. In actual fact, these days I do not play much. Do not have the time or the opportunity to travel a lot because of business and family commitments. And that's one of the reasons why I write on this forum (miss the whole thing). When I used to play seriously (still not pro) and often I mostly read stuff on BJ21 and wrote little on BJ21. And from that little writing on BJ21, I got once a 'Post of the Month'. So I kind of know a little what I am talking about, even though these days I do not practise that a lot.
I sometimes magnify the text and then I can't see the names on the left, unless I scroll and look. I was reading your posts and thinking you and Rev were the same person, I got mixed up. This caused me to INCORRECTLY see some contradiction from what the OP was saying.
DISREGARD WHAT I SAID. It was not meant for you and im sorry.
