kubikulann
kubikulann
Joined: Jun 28, 2011
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March 14th, 2014 at 6:05:06 AM permalink
In the Wiz-of-Odds page Effect of Card Removal in Blackjack (Appendix 7) the table is said to exhibit effects on the player's Expected Value. Is this not rather the House Edge (in negative) ?

Also, the figure for 10:
is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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March 14th, 2014 at 7:37:49 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

In the Wiz-of-Odds page Effect of Card Removal in Blackjack (Appendix 7) the table is said to exhibit effects on the player's Expected Value. Is this not rather the House Edge (in negative) ?

Also, the figure for 10:
is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?



Expected value is equivalent to the house edge, there is no reversal of signs involved. It is the effect of removing one 10-point card from every deck. Your questions don't make very much sense, I did my best.
ChesterDog
ChesterDog
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March 14th, 2014 at 8:17:08 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

...is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?



The Wizard's value used to make that figure, -0.004932, is for the removal of one for every sixteen ten-valued cards. (I verified this with the infinite-deck model.) That is removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10).
kubikulann
kubikulann
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March 14th, 2014 at 10:07:38 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Expected value is equivalent to the house edge, there is no reversal of signs involved.

Wrong! When House edge is positive (i.e. for the casino), expected value is negative for the player.
Furthermore, expected value is in dollars, house edge is in percent.
Quote: Sonuvabish

Your questions don't make very much sense, I did my best.

Neither do your answers. But if that's your best....
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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March 14th, 2014 at 11:00:04 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

Wrong! When House edge is positive (i.e. for the casino), expected value is negative for the player.
Furthermore, expected value is in dollars, house edge is in percent. Neither do your answers. But if that's your best....



What's 44% of a dollar? There's no such thing as a 'negative house edge'. That's like saying you have -1 pairs of shoes or a team won negative games. It's a player advantage. Kinda difficult to understand what you're talking about. If you adopt that philosophy, it should be spelled out, not assumed that everyone else thinks like that. You cannot articulate questions because you don't understand the concepts you are inquiring about. Maybe you learned about this advanced concept of the negative house edge in your scholarly review of an ad for an internet casino, written by someone with a moderate understanding of the English language? Upon reading your response, it has become clearer that I did substantively answer your question and I get an ungrateful snarl. I am sorry that I offered help, I will not make that mistake again.
AceTwo
AceTwo
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March 14th, 2014 at 2:24:05 PM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

In the Wiz-of-Odds page Effect of Card Removal in Blackjack (Appendix 7) the table is said to exhibit effects on the player's Expected Value. Is this not rather the House Edge (in negative) ?

Also, the figure for 10:
is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?



Effect of Removal and House Edge are 2 completely different things.
Effect of Removal (of a specific card) is the change in HE if one specific card is removed.
I think WoO shows the effect of removal with respect to the player.
For example for A the EOR is -0.005816 meaning that if one A is removed the game becomes worse by -0.005816 (or the HE becomes worse by this amount)

For 10s is the effect of removing 1 10 value card (10 or J or Q or K).

EOR are used to make Counting systems like Hi Lo.
By using these EOR and finding apprpriate ratios (instead of 1,0,-1 as in Hi Low) you can make a more accurate Counting System.
The ultimate Counting system is of course using the EOR per se.
ie for 2 +3.875 (instead of +1)
for 3 +4.610 (instead of +1)
for 10 -4.932 (instead of -1)
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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March 15th, 2014 at 1:30:19 AM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

Quote: kubikulann

In the Wiz-of-Odds page Effect of Card Removal in Blackjack (Appendix 7) the table is said to exhibit effects on the player's Expected Value. Is this not rather the House Edge (in negative) ?

Also, the figure for 10:
is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?



Effect of Removal and House Edge are 2 completely different things.
Effect of Removal (of a specific card) is the change in HE if one specific card is removed.
I think WoO shows the effect of removal with respect to the player.
For example for A the EOR is -0.005816 meaning that if one A is removed the game becomes worse by -0.005816 (or the HE becomes worse by this amount)

For 10s is the effect of removing 1 10 value card (10 or J or Q or K).

EOR are used to make Counting systems like Hi Lo.
By using these EOR and finding apprpriate ratios (instead of 1,0,-1 as in Hi Low) you can make a more accurate Counting System.
The ultimate Counting system is of course using the EOR per se.
ie for 2 +3.875 (instead of +1)
for 3 +4.610 (instead of +1)
for 10 -4.932 (instead of -1)



So since the house edge is positive, are you supposed to subtract a card's EOR to get the new house edge, or is taking out Aces good for the player since a negative EOR would decrease the house edge? I will be ungrateful for any clarification.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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March 15th, 2014 at 1:53:57 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

In the Wiz-of-Odds page Effect of Card Removal in Blackjack (Appendix 7) the table is said to exhibit effects on the player's Expected Value. Is this not rather the House Edge (in negative) ?

Also, the figure for 10:
is it the effect of removing, say, one King in four (and leaving the Q, J, 10), or is it the effect of removing one in four of every ten-valued card?



As I read that appendix, for any given set of BJ rules (which has its own HE determined by things like hit or stand on soft 17, pay BJ 3:2 or 6:5 etc.), the effect of removal moves the EV in the player's favor that amount for those cards with a positive value, per card of that rank, and in the house's favor for those cards with a negative value, per card. The numbers themselves are not the HE of the game, but they had to be calculated using some set of BJ rules, so the Wizard states "Infinite Deck, etc."

The 10's place reads as any single 10-value card, whether 10, J, Q, or K, has a - effect per card, not as a group of 4. Obviously I'm not the Wizard, but it seems the only way to read either point to me.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AceTwo
AceTwo
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March 19th, 2014 at 1:47:03 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish


So since the house edge is positive, are you supposed to subtract a card's EOR to get the new house edge, or is taking out Aces good for the player since a negative EOR would decrease the house edge? I will be ungrateful for any clarification.



The EOR are shown with respect to the Player.
With respect to the player the HE is negative, say -0,005 (-0,5%) say for a BJ game.

Also NOTE the following from WoO EORs.
"The following table shows the effect on the player's expected value by removing one of the given card for each deck. For example if the removed card is a seven then each deck would have three sevens, as opposed to the usual four"
So the EORs that WoO shows is for one removal of one card per deck, so for a 6 deck game these are the EORs for removing 6 cards.
Other authors show the EOR for removing one card ONLY from all decks.

So for say a 6 deck game with HE of -0,005 (-0,5%)
If you remove 6 Aces the effect is -0,005 (-0,005816 to be exact) ie -0,5%. So the game becomes -1% (-0,5%-0,5%).
If you remove 6 Sixes the effect is +0,005 (+0.004553 to be exact) ie +0,5%. So the game becomes 0% (-0,5%+0,5%)
Removing 6 Sixes is Running Count +6 and True Count +1 (6/6). At TC 1 the EV is 0%.

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