Are they really watching us all the time?
February 27th, 2014 at 3:39:43 PM
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Had an interesting thing happen last night at Mohegan. The dealer bent the edge of a card, the King of Hearts. Called the floor, who left the bent card out of the boneyard. At the end of the shoe, with another floor guy, he broke open a sealed deck, pulled a fresh King out of it, put the two cards in front of the rack, turned them both over once, put the good card into the deck, took away the bent card, life went on.
What drew my attention was the display made of what transpired, under the supposed watchful eye of the cameras. Which made me wonder. Exactly how intense is this surveillance? It doesn't make sense that there are people sitting in front of video screens watching every table. There are sooo many cameras, or at least sooo many globes in the ceilings. For all of the playing to the cameras, there are only so many eyes to review them. Is it just for a record in case there's an issue after the fact? Like if someone complained about that king, or if someone were to question a payout? I have seen clumbsy attempts to reconstruct a round of cards once all of the cards have been mucked, but even if the dealer and the table is unsure of what REALLY happened, I have never seen it go to the point of calling for help from the video department. One way or the other the pit crew comes up with a resolution. Never mind the dealer telling players to make a gesture - hit or stand - "for the eye in the sky". Someone's watching me to see if I signaled a hit on that hard seventeen? Really?
I imagine that nowadays there are enough terabytes of disk to store every second of every table in every casino in all the world, but unless something draws attention to it, are they really watching us all the time?
What drew my attention was the display made of what transpired, under the supposed watchful eye of the cameras. Which made me wonder. Exactly how intense is this surveillance? It doesn't make sense that there are people sitting in front of video screens watching every table. There are sooo many cameras, or at least sooo many globes in the ceilings. For all of the playing to the cameras, there are only so many eyes to review them. Is it just for a record in case there's an issue after the fact? Like if someone complained about that king, or if someone were to question a payout? I have seen clumbsy attempts to reconstruct a round of cards once all of the cards have been mucked, but even if the dealer and the table is unsure of what REALLY happened, I have never seen it go to the point of calling for help from the video department. One way or the other the pit crew comes up with a resolution. Never mind the dealer telling players to make a gesture - hit or stand - "for the eye in the sky". Someone's watching me to see if I signaled a hit on that hard seventeen? Really?
I imagine that nowadays there are enough terabytes of disk to store every second of every table in every casino in all the world, but unless something draws attention to it, are they really watching us all the time?
February 27th, 2014 at 3:50:15 PM
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They are almost certainly recording at keeping it for some length of time (which may be mandated by the gaming commission or tribe). Most of the video is not being watched live at any one time, but if they have a reason to watch a particular spot they can do so easily at any time.
February 27th, 2014 at 4:02:48 PM
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Certainly they aren't watching all the time. I know because I've made small mistakes, but don't realize til several hands later, but there's no call from upstairs telling the floor to get that money back. I also don't get surveillance reports. For big wins, surveillance has to confirm there wasn't any funny business. I guy once noticed one of his purple was missing from craps. Surveillance confirmed who took it and they managed to get it back, since the thief was a regular.
Also if they suspect a player or dealer is cheating they can take a closer look at old footage to confirm.
Also if they suspect a player or dealer is cheating they can take a closer look at old footage to confirm.
February 27th, 2014 at 5:17:30 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 27th, 2014 at 5:32:40 PM
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Most procedures in a casino are just that... procedures. Steps you follow when you do something. Not steps you follow when you know someone is watching you, steps you follow ALL the time.
Consider the young female dealer recently rotated into craps ... fine hair style for a black jack dealer but a lock of that blonde hair kept falling down in front of her forehead when she dealt craps.
So she would from time to time brush the hair away from her forehead. I'm not saying it was often. I think she did it three times the whole night.
But each and every one of those times, you all know HOW she did it.
Slap hands together loudly, take one and only one hand, brush lock of hair back where it belongs, bring hand back over the table. slap hands together loudly, continue dealing craps.
She was not palming chips or anything and no one was focusing on her ... its simply the way it is done in a casino. Show clean hands, do something openly (that slap is loud), show clean hands when you are done. High limit table...follow procedures. Flea Table...follow procedures. Pit Boss standing beside you ... follow procedures. Bit boss far across the room ... follow procedures.
If the departing stick man sees the Box has his head turned away and is talking to the Pit Boss and not looking at the departing stickman at all... it makes no difference, the stick man shows clean hands if the box is staring at him intently and also if he is clearly looking away. The film should always show proper procedures,,, even if no one ever looks at it.
Surveillance is a bunch of low paid dolts and are probably looking elsewhere anyway...... but you follow procedures just the same.
Consider the young female dealer recently rotated into craps ... fine hair style for a black jack dealer but a lock of that blonde hair kept falling down in front of her forehead when she dealt craps.
So she would from time to time brush the hair away from her forehead. I'm not saying it was often. I think she did it three times the whole night.
But each and every one of those times, you all know HOW she did it.
Slap hands together loudly, take one and only one hand, brush lock of hair back where it belongs, bring hand back over the table. slap hands together loudly, continue dealing craps.
She was not palming chips or anything and no one was focusing on her ... its simply the way it is done in a casino. Show clean hands, do something openly (that slap is loud), show clean hands when you are done. High limit table...follow procedures. Flea Table...follow procedures. Pit Boss standing beside you ... follow procedures. Bit boss far across the room ... follow procedures.
If the departing stick man sees the Box has his head turned away and is talking to the Pit Boss and not looking at the departing stickman at all... it makes no difference, the stick man shows clean hands if the box is staring at him intently and also if he is clearly looking away. The film should always show proper procedures,,, even if no one ever looks at it.
Surveillance is a bunch of low paid dolts and are probably looking elsewhere anyway...... but you follow procedures just the same.
February 27th, 2014 at 5:59:07 PM
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Procedures are there for another reason: It makes deviations from procedure stand out like a red flag. So much so that the surveillance guys who are absent-mindedly scanning rows of monitors, might stop and watch a little closer.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 27th, 2014 at 6:42:24 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffSurveillance is a bunch of low paid dolts and are probably looking elsewhere anyway...... but you follow procedures just the same.
I take serious offence to this statement............................
I have been actively on here now since November or so last year. I have been open with every working of the Surveillance room. Any questions that anybody might have I would be happy to answer.
Surveillance isn't low paid due to their inability to do a job much less the job of mindlessly sitting and watching a TV screen, they are paid the way they are (I should say "we") because we are not a revenue generating department. We have to constantly fight to get money for maintenance or upgrades and are always the last in line for raises.
Surveillance is long not the simpletons sloutched in a chair staring into a monitor. We have moved on from such draconian ways. We have TONS of data to sift through including POS, game anlytics, statistical variances, win/loss reports, big players, ratings and so on and so on and so on.
We are not "dolts" nor are we unattentive or just trying to fill a gap.........My guys are super hard working and knows the casino industry inside and out. Any of my guys can get a job in any casino department tomorrow and do an adequate job while being fully trained.
Flea, I think your comment is degrading and you should apologize, unless you have proof of what you speak!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 6:55:04 PM
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In fairness most people (not all, but most) do the highest-paid job which they are capable of doing. If the pay is low, that is not going to attract a lot of people who are capable of doing things that are much higher-paying.
There are exceptions, of course, but it's true for most people.
There are exceptions, of course, but it's true for most people.
February 27th, 2014 at 7:44:15 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIn fairness most people (not all, but most) do the highest-paid job which they are capable of doing. If the pay is low, that is not going to attract a lot of people who are capable of doing things that are much higher-paying.
There are exceptions, of course, but it's true for most people.
That is true of some but now Surveillance is becoming much more of a "start up" career as opposed ot...."I cannot deal anymore because my knees are shot so I need to do a job where I can sit down all day long".
I absolutely agree with the ideology that market forces should establish which jobs go to which candidates and at what pay level but I feel Surveillance has been pigeon-holed for so long that most people have an idea about what we do and that's that!
I have successfully changed that mindset with my guys and will continue to do so moving forward. Hopefully when we make ourselves so indispensable that the Presidents will not be able to go to sleep at night without knowing that Surveillance is keeping an eye on his property, then we will get paid the money we actually deserve.
Pie in the sky I know
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 7:52:54 PM
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Quote: TomspurThat is true of some but now Surveillance is becoming much more of a "start up" career as opposed ot...."I cannot deal anymore because my knees are shot so I need to do a job where I can sit down all day long".
I absolutely agree with the ideology that market forces should establish which jobs go to which candidates and at what pay level but I feel Surveillance has been pigeon-holed for so long that most people have an idea about what we do and that's that!
I have successfully changed that mindset with my guys and will continue to do so moving forward. Hopefully when we make ourselves so indispensable that the Presidents will not be able to go to sleep at night without knowing that Surveillance is keeping an eye on his property, then we will get paid the money we actually deserve.
Pie in the sky I know
My point is that if the pay was higher, different people would be doing it.
February 27th, 2014 at 8:00:28 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMy point is that if the pay was higher, different people would be doing it.
So seeing as Surveillance is not the highest paying job, it is ok for us to be called "dolts"?
What is so stupid about me or am I and just about every other Director of Surveillance stupid?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 8:03:24 PM
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Quote: Tomspur
I absolutely agree with the ideology that market forces should establish which jobs go to which candidates and at what pay level but I feel Surveillance has been pigeon-holed for so long that most people have an idea about what we do and that's that
We certainly do more than stare at a monitor all day. Some of it very in depth and laborious. Some of it innovative and worthy of pride.
But at the end of the day, we're just a bunch of grown folk watching card games.
To quote that dumb bird from the Flintstones, "bwaaak! It's a living =/ "
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
February 27th, 2014 at 8:07:56 PM
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I wondered which of the several members on here who are surveillance professionals would catch that "dolts" reference and how it would go. While not specifically directed at "a" member of the forum, it's likely Flea (who is a quite reasonable person) would be willing to apologize for the generalization. Flea?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
February 27th, 2014 at 8:08:57 PM
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Quote: TomspurSo seeing as Surveillance is not the highest paying job, it is ok for us to be called "dolts"?
What is so stupid about me or am I and just about every other Director of Surveillance stupid?
Director of surveillance is not the same as the rank and file surveillance guys.
It's just like the head of marketing at McDonald's is not the same as the guy who is flipping hamburgers. I'm not asking you to say anything bad about your employees, but I'm sure that you are well aware that if the job paid better, you would have better people working for you.
February 27th, 2014 at 8:09:17 PM
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Quote: FaceWe certainly do more than stare at a monitor all day. Some of it very in depth and laborious. Some of it innovative and worthy of pride.
But at the end of the day, we're just a bunch of grown folk watching card games.
To quote that dumb bird from the Flintstones, "bwaaak! It's a living =/ "
I don't see it that way anymore Face. As I mentioned in a different post, my room is well lit with properly contoured desks and ergonomic chairs. I have data being piped in from multiple areas in the casino, in fact there isn't an area in the casino I cannot monitor with data alone. Gone are the days that an ex dealer can come spend his twilight years in Surveillance reading the newspaper and giving the floor the bad news that "sorry that shot is out of range, I can't help you".
My guys are all driven yuppies who love to investigate and learn. They spend their entire 8 hour shift sifting through tons of information and the rest of the time doing live audits. Since I got here I have turned the place from a completely reactive department to about 60/40 in favor of pro active support.
With a 200 table and 1360 slot machine operation there is no time to just sit and watch a card game. Analyze, research, report, repeat. It is my ARRR approach (insert pirate growl here)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 8:11:12 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDirector of surveillance is not the same as the rank and file surveillance guys.
It's just like the head of marketing at McDonald's is not the same as the guy who is flipping hamburgers. I'm not asking you to say anything bad about your employees, but I'm sure that you are well aware that if the job paid better, you would have better people working for you.
You are right, I have people working for me who are either happy with a lower salary point because of other benefits or people who actually enjoy Surveillance and want to make a career out of it. Either way, my guys are all top notch. i would open any new property with them any day of the week.
And it only took me 2 years to accomplish :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 8:20:17 PM
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I remember in Atlantic City years ago the DGE needed surveillance video from a casino to review an incident. When they ran the tapes it was hours and hours of shots down girls blouses or filming women in short skirts going up stairs and elevators.
In July, for instance, the state Division on Civil Rights filed an administrative complaint charging that employees at Caesar's Atlantic City were abusing the casino's eagle-eyed surveillance cameras to peer at women on the casino floor and on escalators. The division also claimed that two women employees in the casino's surveillance department were dismissed in retaliation for complaining about the alleged practice as well as obscene and sexually explicit comments made by male colleagues as close-ups of cleavage and other images appeared on security monitors. In addition, the State Division of Gaming Enforcement is also investigating whether Caesar's broke any state gambling regulations concerning use of the monitors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/02/nyregion/the-law-surveillance-cameras-taking-a-closer-look.html
In July, for instance, the state Division on Civil Rights filed an administrative complaint charging that employees at Caesar's Atlantic City were abusing the casino's eagle-eyed surveillance cameras to peer at women on the casino floor and on escalators. The division also claimed that two women employees in the casino's surveillance department were dismissed in retaliation for complaining about the alleged practice as well as obscene and sexually explicit comments made by male colleagues as close-ups of cleavage and other images appeared on security monitors. In addition, the State Division of Gaming Enforcement is also investigating whether Caesar's broke any state gambling regulations concerning use of the monitors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/02/nyregion/the-law-surveillance-cameras-taking-a-closer-look.html
February 27th, 2014 at 8:32:07 PM
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Quote: anonimussI remember in Atlantic City years ago the DGE needed surveillance video from a casino to review an incident. When they ran the tapes it was hours and hours of shots down girls blouses or filming women in short skirts going up stairs and elevators.
That is absolutely how Surveillance used to be, in fact I had a guy fired 3 years ago for that exact same thing. Also loads of guys get fired for sleeping on the job. Some of them were heavily medicated and fell asleep on the night shift.
Those types of incidents are becoming less and less frequent as hiring policies changes and we are more stringent on who we let into the department.
This are changing but very slowly.....things are MUCH better in the Asian countries such as Macau, Singapore and Korea
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 8:38:20 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabsI wondered which of the several members on here who are surveillance professionals would catch that "dolts" reference and how it would go. While not specifically directed at "a" member of the forum, it's likely Flea (who is a quite reasonable person) would be willing to apologize for the generalization. Flea?
Flea might change his opinion, maybe. But if we have to apologize for an honest opinion, then why bother to express one.
Put the gun back in the holster, Babs. But you can keep that one bullet in your administrator blouse pocket, ala Barney !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 27th, 2014 at 8:39:18 PM
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Can't be too "stringent" who gets in. Plenty of people have scammed casinos for years and still do to this day. That's why the few that manage to get caught get paraded in a big dog and pony show.
February 27th, 2014 at 8:45:48 PM
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Quote: anonimussCan't be too "stringent" who gets in. Plenty of people have scammed casinos for years and still do to this day. That's why the few that manage to get caught get paraded in a big dog and pony show.
I'm done trying to defend my profession. If anybody wants to see how a Surveillance room operates, when I'm back in Vegas I would be happy to give anybody a tour.
Until such time, let's perhaps shelf this discussion as it is getting us nowhere and me a little agitated :)
Ce'la vie
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 8:50:09 PM
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When are you back in Vegas? I would quite like a tour myself.
(Also it's c'est la vie. Not sure if you made a spelling mistake or not)
(Also it's c'est la vie. Not sure if you made a spelling mistake or not)
February 27th, 2014 at 8:59:10 PM
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Exactly what level clearance is necessary for such a tour ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 27th, 2014 at 9:31:56 PM
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Anybody can be invited in for a guided tour of the room. You will not be able to actually get inside the room but you will be able to see the workings of the room through a very pretty glass wall, obviously dependant on which casino you visit.
I'm back sometime in August, not sure yet. It may only be in December.
I'm back sometime in August, not sure yet. It may only be in December.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 9:39:15 PM
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Quote: BuzzardFlea might change his opinion, maybe. But if we have to apologize for an honest opinion, then why bother to express one.
Put the gun back in the holster, Babs. But you can keep that one bullet in your administrator blouse pocket, ala Barney !
I wasn't asking Flea or anyone else to change their opinion. Tomspur himself talks above about being a reformer, and in the old days, how it often was a place for retired dealers or low-motivation folks. Flea's opinion might well be valid in his experience. I was suggesting that, since Tomspur took offense, Flea might care to address that, since Flea is a gentleman. Or not. A non-bullet-worthy discussion all around, Otis. :)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
February 27th, 2014 at 9:47:48 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMy point is that if the pay was higher, different people would be doing it.
Definitely. I think it was The Bellagio that about a year ago had a full length detailed job posting get leaked to the internet... they wanted shift work and week end work and this and that .... and then they listed the hourly rate. Disgraceful.
But its still the same thing on the casino floor: Follow procedures. Even if you know, absolutely know, that no one is looking follow procedures. Often surveillance types overlook something minor to see if things "get worse" later in the shift. They don't want to alert a dealer that he is being watched, otherwise dealers would do something minor and if no call came, they could be sure surveillance wasn't watching them.
But the point is still the same. No matter what the average casino worker thinks of his deaf, dumb and blind Pit Boss who is all the way on the other side of the Pit anyway, ... follow procedures! One BJ dealer got written up for what he did with his empty hand. Surveillance wanted to see it palm down on the table, not his hand resting on its edge ... it looked like he might be concealing something even though it would be physically impossible. They want uniformity and the thing they look most at are hands and positioning.
February 27th, 2014 at 10:13:40 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffMost procedures in a casino are just that... procedures. Steps you follow when you do something. Not steps you follow when you know someone is watching you, steps you follow ALL the time.
Consider the young female dealer recently rotated into craps ... fine hair style for a black jack dealer but a lock of that blonde hair kept falling down in front of her forehead when she dealt craps.
So she would from time to time brush the hair away from her forehead. I'm not saying it was often. I think she did it three times the whole night.
But each and every one of those times, you all know HOW she did it.
Slap hands together loudly, take one and only one hand, brush lock of hair back where it belongs, bring hand back over the table. slap hands together loudly, continue dealing craps.
She was not palming chips or anything and no one was focusing on her ... its simply the way it is done in a casino. Show clean hands, do something openly (that slap is loud), show clean hands when you are done. High limit table...follow procedures. Flea Table...follow procedures. Pit Boss standing beside you ... follow procedures. Bit boss far across the room ... follow procedures.
If the departing stick man sees the Box has his head turned away and is talking to the Pit Boss and not looking at the departing stickman at all... it makes no difference, the stick man shows clean hands if the box is staring at him intently and also if he is clearly looking away. The film should always show proper procedures,,, even if no one ever looks at it.
Warning: Hyperbole on its way.
Voice of omniscient casino mentor to all new hires: reflecting supposed views of the "average" dealer, not myself.
Surveillance is a bunch of low paid dolts and are probably looking elsewhere anyway...... but you follow procedures just the same.
NOTE: I did not intend any slur on Eye in the Sky people, nor on Pie in the Sky people. This was an exaggerated attempt to express the casino dealer's views, not my own. I'd love a job in surveillance. And I think I could keep my hands off the joystick controlling the close up camera when well endowed young ladies showed up at the table. The only trouble is that surveillance personnel are not allowed to gamble in the casino and even use separate employee entrances so dealers can't get to know even their faces.
DOUBLE NOTE: My reference to Deaf Dumb and Blind Pit Bosses is also an exaggeration and is meant as a view held by the employee, not by myself. As a matter of fact, if we can turn off this Politically Correct stuff for awhile, the much maligned Benny Binion once had two Boxmen. One was going deaf and the other was going blind. Every other casino in town would have fired them on the spot. Benny Binion told his rubber band men to schedule them at the same craps table. They were experienced and one of them heard everything that happened, the other saw everything that happened ... and nothing got by the team of the two of them. Benny Binion was no fool. He valued their hard work and experience and he rewarded loyalty.
February 27th, 2014 at 10:26:19 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffWarning: Hyperbole on its way.
Voice of omniscient casino mentor to all new hires: reflecting supposed views of the "average" dealer, not myself.
Surveillance is a bunch of low paid dolts and are probably looking elsewhere anyway...... but you follow procedures just the same.
You should hear the names we call the dealers :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 10:31:50 PM
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" if we can turn off this Politically Correct stuff for awhile "
Wouldn't that be GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn't that be GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 27th, 2014 at 10:43:59 PM
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Quote: TomspurWith a 200 table and 1360 slot machine operation there is no time to just sit and watch a card game. Analyze, research, report, repeat. It is my ARRR approach (insert pirate growl here)
Perhaps, in a different thread, you might give us your views on the difference between your Data Mining approach of ARRR and the formerly more prevalent view which was that surveillance should look for JDLRs all day long. "Just Don't Look Right" or the more grammatically correct "Just Doesn't Look Right".
One young man long ago studying classical piano got a summer job in Surveillance and was very good at spotting JDLR stuff. The casino offered him very good money to stay with them when his summer ended. He focused on human issues: People sitting too close too each other, rubber necking prior to a crime. Spotting teams by identifying furtive directional glances. Things like that.
Now you have Data Mining programs. Looking for associations. Who worked on a slot machine prior to its hitting a jackpot? Who was staying in the hotel when the craps hold nose dived. Which tables vary most with the shift? What cards were in slot machines at the time a BJ table was bleeding chips?
One Super-Brain walked into a "casino" (actually a card room) in Modesto, CA and put a small pile of "pot" in the betting square instead of money. The YouTube video briefly showed the innards of the "surveillance room" at the casino. Small potatoes for sure!
Though I'm sure it was an unusually entertaining night for the eye in the sky guy.
February 27th, 2014 at 10:54:12 PM
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Surveillance has evolved into a very integrated, high tech part of the casino operation. In the old days the casinos relied on salty type guys who had been in the industry for 40 years and couls spot an AP or cheater before they woke up and got out of bed that morning.
We don't have that luxury anymore. The experienced guys are dying off or retiring and we need to replace them with more forward thinking, technologically sound guys. Now granted in some cases we do have to pay the price of "experience" for a more rounded individual (and I'm not talking about their waistlines). Also there are so many more holes out there that need protecting that we cannot possibly keep watch over everything that happens in a casino operation during the day.
So now we have come up with a different solution, one that hasn't taken root everywhere yet but I'm pretty sure sooner rather than later, we will have a room that looks more like a "data-veillance" operation than a surveillance operation.
I guess the key is balance!
In my opinion you need to use the information that all the electronic gadgets on the casino floor, in the count rooms, at hotel reception at the restaurants and so on produces, otherwise why are they there? We are integrated into every systm on property. We have info coming in from the Angel Eye shoes so that we can analyze baccarat and blackjack play. We have info coming in from the wheel signage computers which allows us to quickly use a chi test analyzer to see if a wheel might need more research for being biased. We have tons of POS transactions coming through so that we can monitor bar tenders, waitresses and restaurant managers to make sure they don't rob us blind (which they do).
There will never NOT be a need for a camera but you need to broaden your horizons and look in places where you never looked before because times they are a changing and we need to change with them. The more technologically advanced we become, the more savvy the cheaters become. It is a cat and mouse game that has no end!
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have as long as you or your dealer associates don't call us "dolts" again :)
We don't have that luxury anymore. The experienced guys are dying off or retiring and we need to replace them with more forward thinking, technologically sound guys. Now granted in some cases we do have to pay the price of "experience" for a more rounded individual (and I'm not talking about their waistlines). Also there are so many more holes out there that need protecting that we cannot possibly keep watch over everything that happens in a casino operation during the day.
So now we have come up with a different solution, one that hasn't taken root everywhere yet but I'm pretty sure sooner rather than later, we will have a room that looks more like a "data-veillance" operation than a surveillance operation.
I guess the key is balance!
In my opinion you need to use the information that all the electronic gadgets on the casino floor, in the count rooms, at hotel reception at the restaurants and so on produces, otherwise why are they there? We are integrated into every systm on property. We have info coming in from the Angel Eye shoes so that we can analyze baccarat and blackjack play. We have info coming in from the wheel signage computers which allows us to quickly use a chi test analyzer to see if a wheel might need more research for being biased. We have tons of POS transactions coming through so that we can monitor bar tenders, waitresses and restaurant managers to make sure they don't rob us blind (which they do).
There will never NOT be a need for a camera but you need to broaden your horizons and look in places where you never looked before because times they are a changing and we need to change with them. The more technologically advanced we become, the more savvy the cheaters become. It is a cat and mouse game that has no end!
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have as long as you or your dealer associates don't call us "dolts" again :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 27th, 2014 at 11:05:05 PM
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I'm offended fleastiff hasn't used the term " some sweet young thang" in months. Is it on the banned word list?
I am a robot.
February 28th, 2014 at 12:04:41 AM
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Quote: Buzzard" if we can turn off this Politically Correct stuff for awhile "
Wouldn't that be GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I second that emotion. Reminds me of my grandma
in the 50's. We'd sit on her porch and she always
had a fly swatter in her hands and was deadly with
it. If one of us kids said or did something she didn't
like, WHACK! I hated that fly swatter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 28th, 2014 at 12:22:10 AM
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Let me just get it straight from both Buzz and bob so I know where I stand.
If someone either directly or indirectly calls me and/or my team stupid I should not say anything and stop being so PC?
Did I misunderstand? I would be happy for you guys to show me the error of my ways. Perhaps I don't understand what you guys mean by politically correct.
Anyway, I'm not phased. If I want to say something I'll say it. As long as I stay within the confines of the rules, not much anbody can say or do about it.
But please fellas, correct me if I'm wrong. I have been on many occasions before!
If someone either directly or indirectly calls me and/or my team stupid I should not say anything and stop being so PC?
Did I misunderstand? I would be happy for you guys to show me the error of my ways. Perhaps I don't understand what you guys mean by politically correct.
Anyway, I'm not phased. If I want to say something I'll say it. As long as I stay within the confines of the rules, not much anbody can say or do about it.
But please fellas, correct me if I'm wrong. I have been on many occasions before!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 28th, 2014 at 12:29:39 AM
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Quote: TomspurIn the old days the casinos relied on salty type guys who had been in the industry for 40 years and couls spot an AP or cheater before they woke up and got out of bed that morning.
In the old days the people lying on the boards above the casino floor were retired crossroaders who changed sides due to age or manual dexterity problems. They could spot cheaters using opera glasses to focus on card switchers and dice switchers.
I recall one heavily armed team of crooks lay concealed all day long in the hot sun waiting for a 3:oopm armored car and at 2:45 there was a bogus call to security about a car on fire in the casino's garage. So its good that your "data veillance" dept is tied in to other areas of the casino. Bar tenders and waitresses do rob the bar owner ... often. Yet one of the most profitable bars ever was a place that did straight pours with none of that fancy jigger thing on the end of the bottle. Generous drinks, free pool table, ... no wonder the place made money.
The roulette annunciator panels can themselves be off but its a good data stream to have. I still think most cheating is done by blockers and past posters but watching the data stream from the panel is as important as watching for people distracting the croupier at a critical time.
Sifting data can be done by a computer that never gets bored. Not so with those who stare at a tv monitor... they get bored.
February 28th, 2014 at 1:01:00 AM
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Quote: TomspurLet me just get it straight from both Buzz and bob so I know where I stand.
If someone either directly or indirectly calls me and/or my team stupid I should not say anything and stop being so PC?
Did I misunderstand? I would be happy for you guys to show me the error of my ways. Perhaps I don't understand what you guys mean by politically correct.
Anyway, I'm not phased. If I want to say something I'll say it. As long as I stay within the confines of the rules, not much anbody can say or do about it.
But please fellas, correct me if I'm wrong. I have been on many occasions before!
I'm going to be a stereotypical woman for a minute, Tom, and claim this is all about me (not you).
Buzz and Bob are chafing under the Wiz's new rules, and particularly me being a new admin enforcing it.
They're good at being indirect with their criticism, so you're in the conversation. Collateral damage, if you like.
It's all pretty straightforward otherwise. You're fine, from A to Z. Nobody's suggesting you said anything you shouldn't. In fact, you added a great deal to the content of the conversation with your professional perspective and knowledge. You're just convenient to the argument. Sorry about that.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
February 28th, 2014 at 1:04:08 AM
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This is an interesting thread except for all of the conversation about what violates the letter or spirit of what rule. C'mon, folks, don't take a general comment about a group of people as a personal insult--tons of bad things have been said about dealers and just about everyone else involved in the casino industry.
The interesting part is about how surveillance works now compared to then, etc. Please keep that going...
The interesting part is about how surveillance works now compared to then, etc. Please keep that going...
February 28th, 2014 at 2:26:57 AM
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I feel like the surveillance group is getting a hard time here.
The two times I interacted with it the most were:
1st trip to Vegas in 2001 (directly): Playing Sic Bo at Mirage with multiple players. I place $2 on the number 12 to hit (6:1), I win and collect the money, but a drunk guy thought the bet was his. The croupier didn't remember who actually placed the bet, so they made me return $14, and then 10 to 15 minutes later gave it back to me because I was more sober than the other guy, obviously. ;)
2013 (indirectly): This was way more impressive. I'm playing $3/$6 Omaha8 with a kill in my local casino, which has a $1 bad beat drop. The bad beat is taken when the pot reaches $20. Apparently one of the dealers took the bad beat too early (and pot didn't reach $20) and surveillance caught it. No one at the table noticed. A few hands later, they call the poker room, and the floor informs the dealer that he needs to refund this one guy $1 because he dropped the bad beat too early. The next few hands after, it was the most nervous dealer I have seen in my life...haha
The two times I interacted with it the most were:
1st trip to Vegas in 2001 (directly): Playing Sic Bo at Mirage with multiple players. I place $2 on the number 12 to hit (6:1), I win and collect the money, but a drunk guy thought the bet was his. The croupier didn't remember who actually placed the bet, so they made me return $14, and then 10 to 15 minutes later gave it back to me because I was more sober than the other guy, obviously. ;)
2013 (indirectly): This was way more impressive. I'm playing $3/$6 Omaha8 with a kill in my local casino, which has a $1 bad beat drop. The bad beat is taken when the pot reaches $20. Apparently one of the dealers took the bad beat too early (and pot didn't reach $20) and surveillance caught it. No one at the table noticed. A few hands later, they call the poker room, and the floor informs the dealer that he needs to refund this one guy $1 because he dropped the bad beat too early. The next few hands after, it was the most nervous dealer I have seen in my life...haha
February 28th, 2014 at 6:31:23 AM
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Quote: TomspurI don't see it that way anymore Face. As I mentioned in a different post, my room is well lit with properly contoured desks and ergonomic chairs. I have data being piped in from multiple areas in the casino, in fact there isn't an area in the casino I cannot monitor with data alone. Gone are the days that an ex dealer can come spend his twilight years in Surveillance reading the newspaper and giving the floor the bad news that "sorry that shot is out of range, I can't help you".
My guys are all driven yuppies who love to investigate and learn. They spend their entire 8 hour shift sifting through tons of information and the rest of the time doing live audits. Since I got here I have turned the place from a completely reactive department to about 60/40 in favor of pro active support.
I know, I know. There's plenty to be proud of, and I have several posts here defending the profession.
But I guess I'm over it, personally. Ready to move on. It's a tough job to do for any length of time. I know guys in the biz with over a decade under their belt and will probably stay until retirement. But I think my own time is coming to an end.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
February 28th, 2014 at 6:51:29 AM
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Quote: BuzzardFlea might change his opinion, maybe. But if we have to apologize for an honest opinion, then why bother to express one.
Put the gun back in the holster, Babs. But you can keep that one bullet in your administrator blouse pocket, ala Barney !
I haven't read past this yet, the situation may well be resolved. My response is that one cool thing about opinions is that they can change.
A falling knife has no handle.
February 28th, 2014 at 7:15:04 AM
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Quote: FaceBut I think my own time is coming to an end.
My condolences...
What are you going to do--AP? ;-)
February 28th, 2014 at 8:01:32 AM
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" If someone either directly or indirectly calls me and/or my team stupid I should not say anything and stop being so PC? "
That PC comment was more about the nanny attitude that seems to be growing. Don't rely on an administrator to censor the critic. You have proven more than capable of defending yourself. At least neither Bob or I have ever hidden behind " Don't take it personal "
I always take it personal when someone says that.
This is a FORUM. Some people are emotional and say things they later regret. Some have limited vocabularies. Other are easily frustrated trying to defend their viewpoint.
But the last thing any member needs is to be looking over their shoulder all the time. In the rare occasion somebody goes overboard, well, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Just wondering how offended a person can be about being called a dolt ? According to urban dictionary :
" "Dolt" may be the most sophisticated insult in the English language. " Gee, I can not imagine someone in an industry that per your own admission has been guilty of invading privacy, not being thankful for a sophisticated insult. Instead of the usual Mother****er.
That PC comment was more about the nanny attitude that seems to be growing. Don't rely on an administrator to censor the critic. You have proven more than capable of defending yourself. At least neither Bob or I have ever hidden behind " Don't take it personal "
I always take it personal when someone says that.
This is a FORUM. Some people are emotional and say things they later regret. Some have limited vocabularies. Other are easily frustrated trying to defend their viewpoint.
But the last thing any member needs is to be looking over their shoulder all the time. In the rare occasion somebody goes overboard, well, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Just wondering how offended a person can be about being called a dolt ? According to urban dictionary :
" "Dolt" may be the most sophisticated insult in the English language. " Gee, I can not imagine someone in an industry that per your own admission has been guilty of invading privacy, not being thankful for a sophisticated insult. Instead of the usual Mother****er.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 28th, 2014 at 9:44:00 AM
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It seems you did. You seem to think that I have expressed my opinion of surveillance people. No. I did not.Quote: TomspurIf someone either directly or indirectly calls me and/or my team stupid I should not say anything and stop being so PC?
Did I misunderstand?
When dealers are told: Dummy up and deal. It does not mean they are dummies, although perhaps many of them are.
When rent a cops are referred to as trigger happy babboons all to ready to beat little old ladies into submission it does not mean that all rent a cops really do indeed fit that description.
When surveillance types are referred to cleavage focused perverts who look at a woman's breasts when her partner has his hands in the dealer's chip tray, it does not mean that this is some sort of actual or factual description.
At no time have I expressed my opinion of surveillance types anymore than I express my opinion of blondes when telling a blonde joke or a blonde expresses her opinion of blondes when telling a blonde joke.
When surveillance calls down to a Pit Boss and complains a certain dealer just paid off the bettors even though the dealer had 21 and the Pit Boss replies that is a Three Card Poker table, not Blackjack table, I do not know is actually used to describe surveillance types but I expect its far less mild than "dolt".
February 28th, 2014 at 12:32:59 PM
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Quote: chickenmanMy condolences...
What are you going to do--AP? ;-)
Condolences are not necessary. I've never been a "company man". By 5 years, I've usually gotten all I can out of a job as far as experience and knowledge, then the romance dies and I'm ready to get out.
But I'll never be an AP. Not built for it, have no interest in it. But who knows? I usually go where the wind blows me. Carpenter? Aquatic biologist? Maybe I'll hook up with Babs and become a bush plane pilot. It could be anything...
Tomspur, you ever go to WGPC? Your personality and tone reminds me of a guy I always see there. Just curious.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
February 28th, 2014 at 1:18:31 PM
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Commenting on what was said in the first post, I'm shocked you've never seen surveillance called to settle a disagreement between player and dealer or figure out who a rogue chip belongs to. I see it somewhat regularly at the casinos I play at since it allows the table to keep playing and also the player is satisfied that the correct ruling was made (although I've only seen a player be wrong once).
February 28th, 2014 at 1:21:18 PM
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Quote: ComplexEnigmaCommenting on what was said in the first post, I'm shocked you've never seen surveillance called to settle a disagreement between player and dealer or figure out who a rogue chip belongs to. I see it somewhat regularly at the casinos I play at since it allows the table to keep playing and also the player is satisfied that the correct ruling was made (although I've only seen a player be wrong once).
This is probably why most casinos are happy to just settle most disputes in the customer's favor without wasting time going to the cameras.
If the pit crew are competent they know who the shot takers are, and if the person is not a shot taker then they are likely correct almost every time there is a dispute. After all, they only have one bet to keep track of (their own) while the dealer has a whole table to keep track of and a game to deal.
February 28th, 2014 at 1:33:42 PM
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" At no time have I expressed my opinion of surveillance types anymore than I express my opinion of blondes when telling a blonde joke or a blonde expresses her opinion of blondes when telling a blonde joke."
Mike's house = Mike's rules But I wonder if I asked a blonde if she was dumb a year ago, would I have been suspended? Just saying.
Not complaining . Just wondering. As I said before, with all respect, Mike's House = Mike's rules.
Mike's house = Mike's rules But I wonder if I asked a blonde if she was dumb a year ago, would I have been suspended? Just saying.
Not complaining . Just wondering. As I said before, with all respect, Mike's House = Mike's rules.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 28th, 2014 at 2:55:31 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabs
Buzz and Bob are chafing under the Wiz's new rules.
No, just trying figure out what the new
rules are.
For instance, I joked with Face about him taking
Vicodin and was told I was walking a razor thin
edge. My first reaction is, isn't that the
call of the person the comment is directed at?
If he's insulted, can't he lodge a complaint and
then a determination is made? Otherwise, it's
not moderation, it's censorship. A censor takes
it upon themselves to decide what's offensive
and what isn't even before the injured party gets
a chance to react. A mod settles disputes, that's
why they're called 'moderators'. They moderate,
they don't censor.
"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient.."
"Mods are users of the forum who are granted access to the posts and threads of all members for the purpose of moderating discussion."
What's happening with the new rules smacks of
censorship, not moderation. If that's their job,
they should be called forum censors and not forum
mods. Censorship I understand, this type of moderation
I do not.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 28th, 2014 at 3:55:24 PM
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There you go again. Not to enter logic where it is not welcomed !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 28th, 2014 at 7:54:36 PM
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Quote: FaceCondolences are not necessary. I've never been a "company man". By 5 years, I've usually gotten all I can out of a job as far as experience and knowledge, then the romance dies and I'm ready to get out.
But I'll never be an AP. Not built for it, have no interest in it. But who knows? I usually go where the wind blows me. Carpenter? Aquatic biologist? Maybe I'll hook up with Babs and become a bush plane pilot. It could be anything...
Tomspur, you ever go to WGPC? Your personality and tone reminds me of a guy I always see there. Just curious.
Never been no
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
