Bankroll

Aloha guys!

Want to take a second to introduce myself! I'm a 25 year old Oregon native, been living in Hawaii the past 3 years. Started playing blackjack at the age of 18 at the tribal casinos around the Northwest. Picked up CC'ing a little over four years ago and have been practicing HI-LO plus indices (18&4) tirelessly ever since. I love everything about casinos and cards and I dream of making a living at it. I love this forum and have been reading for a little while and enjoy the good information and the *cough* witty *cough* banter! LOL

Anyways, my question. Would you take the risk of moving to Vegas and playing BJ full-time with a $25K bankroll tomorrow, or would you spend the next two years practicing/saving and come to Vegas with a 75K bankroll?

Side notes - I don't like Hawaii all that much (living on Oahu is like living in LA, just a lot more cramped. other islands are great but there's no work) and I don't plan on spending much more time doing the work I do (Special Inspector) and will be quitting within two years and either work for minimal wage back home or move to Vegas to count.

Quote: RevJordan

Anyways, my question. Would you take the risk of moving to Vegas and playing BJ full-time with a $25K bankroll tomorrow, or would you spend the next two years practicing/saving and come to Vegas with a 75K bankroll?

25K is not nearly enough for you to play as your full time source of income. This answer is even assuming you have no dependents or other drains on income. If you have other drains it may be a long time before the move is feasible. When I pull out another CC book, I will give you a more exact opinion.

Quote: RevJordan

Aloha guys!

Want to take a second to introduce myself! I'm a 25 year old Oregon native, been living in Hawaii the past 3 years. Started playing blackjack at the age of 18 at the tribal casinos around the Northwest. Picked up CC'ing a little over two years ago and have been practicing HI-LO plus indices (18&4) tirelessly ever since. I love everything about casinos and cards and I dream of making a living at it. I love this forum and have been reading for a little while and enjoy the good information and the *cough* witty *cough* banter! LOL

Anyways, my question. Would you take the risk of moving to Vegas and playing BJ full-time with a $25K bankroll tomorrow, or would you spend the next two years practicing/saving and come to Vegas with a 75K bankroll?

Side notes - I don't like Hawaii all that much (living on Oahu is like living in LA, just a lot more cramped. other islands are great but there's no work) and I don't plan on spending much more time doing the work I do (Special Inspector) and will be quitting within two years and either work for minimal wage back home or move to Vegas to count.

Since the question was "Would you..." I will answer: absolutely I would not start full time with a bankroll that small! You have to consider the fact that you will be paying for rent and food out of your bankroll as well. At least I am assuming that by "bankroll" you mean "all money available," as you should be if you are full time.

But, I have never been full time. I'm pretty sure our own kewlj started with a roll smaller than that, but I'll let him speak for himself.

I think that $25K is at the absolute lower limits of what might, maybe be feasible for a starting full-time bankroll. But I haven't run any numbers on that, just going off of instinct/past numbers I have seen. Hence my answer that I would not do it. Save up, give yourself some wiggle room and unlock a higher betting level.

Quote: endermike

25K is not nearly enough for you to play as your full time source of income. This answer is even assuming you have no dependents or other drains on income. If you have other drains it may be a long time before the move is feasible. When I pull out another CC book, I will give you a more exact opinion.

No dependents, only recurring expense will be phone bill. Not concerned about healthcare at this point.

I grew up poor, have no problem living in car and eating off the dollar menu for a while (six months to a year, hopefully less).

why not move to vegas with the 25k, try to get a job there, and use red-chip card counting to supplement your income?

i think counting cards is probably the very worst way an advantage player could make a living, unless he started with a VERY large bankroll, in the mid 6 figures.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Since the question was "Would you..." I will answer: absolutely I would not...... Save up, give yourself some wiggle room and unlock a higher betting level.

This is the answer I give myself every evening after I relax, then the next morning at work I'm back to f*** it, it's worth the risk and I'm outta here. LOL

Quote: RevJordan

No dependents, only recurring expense will be phone bill. Not concerned about healthcare at this point.

I grew up poor, have no problem living in car and eating off the dollar menu for a while (six months to a year, hopefully less).

Do you really hate your job that much?

This sounds like a horrible life decision. You are apparently currently in a position where you can save (not make, but save) $25k per year. You are talking about moving to a position where you will live out of your car and hope to make enough money to eat off the dollar menu. So, no, I wouldn't do it.

also, if you are able to SAVE $25,000 a year at age 25 living in the most expensive state there is... you're doing pretty well. It's going to be a very, very long time before you are able to save $25,000 a year playing blackjack.

What exactly is a special inspector and what do you do?

I'm going to go sort of in a different direction than everyone else. If you truly want to do this then I say more power to you. However the problem is just how much do you really want to do this? Have you mastered basic strategy for single, double, and shoes? Do you know all the Hi-Lo indexes (if you are going to make a living on this knowing more than the illustrious 18 is worth quite a bit)? You said you played at tribal casinos, how did you do there? Do you know what the terms risk of ruin, kelly, bet-sizing, and barring actually mean?

I (and probably the others) don't want to be harsh, but a lot of people come up and say they want to count cards for a living. It seems glamorous and after a month of using half learned hi-lo they lose their 8k bankroll and end up flipping burgers in Vegas trying to make their life work.

I used to live in Hawaii, how do you save any money living there? Regarding moving to Vegas..... I did it a year ago and never looked back. The difference in what I do to what counters do is that I am allowed into casinos all day and am able to grind out a living, but counters have a limited time frame to get the money.

One member who has successfully done this is kewlj, and he's probably got better information then I do. I can tell you that after moving here my life has changed drastically. I greatly enjoy being "self-employed" and having to punch in and out of work. I always knew growing up that I would never fit into a normal job, since no matter what I did I would always watch the clock until I could leave. The trade-off is that you are on your own, and you'll always have to move from play to play on the fly with no guarantee of longevity or income.

For me the pros and cons of living out here far outweighs moving up the corporate ladder. I do have a backup in the Guard but it's not income I rely on, more like a monthly commitment that pays me a little.

I just feel that life is too short to not take chances and see how things go. Since you're young enough you'll have more then enough time to give counting a try and see how you do. Worst case scenario you go bust and go back to work. At least you could say to yourself, "Wow I'm glad I took that shot."

Also Las Vegas has a very cheap standard of living, more so if you know how to gamble smartly. Good luck to you and your endeavors.

Construction inspector, mostly reinforced concrete but am certified for bolting, welding, masonry, soils, various laboratory tests.

I know basic strategy for double and shoe, not well-versed in single deck as its never been an option except the occasional trip to Vegas so far. Got the illustrious 18 but still struggling with accuracy beyond that. I'm studying kelly right now, and still trying to wrap my head around standard deviation. EV variance and ROR make sense to me.

Living in Hawaii is expensive, I am extremely resourceful, and have lived out of my vehicle here a few times and eat off the dollar menu and buy discounted/about to expire produce. I am good with people. would never take advantage of a person but am always able to work out a mutually beneficial deal.

I have what I feel is a distinct advantage that the work I do is a niche and all it takes is the certifications (already have majority of them) and a willingness to relocate which I've got. I can quit, move to vegas, and be back to work within a few weeks if it doesn't work out. But that's obviously not the goal.

I really truly appreciate everyone's responses so far. I've got a lot to think about.

Quote: RevJordan

I know basic strategy for double and shoe, not well-versed in single deck as its never been an option except the occasional trip to Vegas so far. Got the illustrious 18 but still struggling with accuracy beyond that. I'm studying kelly right now, and still trying to wrap my head around standard deviation. EV variance and ROR make sense to me.

How do you understand variance but not standard deviation? I think that variance is the harder one to understand.

Variance isn't really intuitive as a measure. It has nice properties for calculation (it's additive for independent events). Its units are "dollars squared" or "bets squared" which is why it is not intuitive -- what is a square dollar?

Standard deviation is a lot more intuitive, I think. It defines the size of a range of values, which your results have some known probability of falling within. It's just a pain to work with because it doesn't scale linearly as you bet more. (it's the square root of standard deviation)

Let me try and give you some practical figures......

Don't try and live out of your car. The Vegas heat is going to bend you over the hood and have your way with you. Even at night it can be ludicrous so that will be a tough thing to swing.
Having said that you can probably shack up with people and share an apartment or a small house with a pool (there are many here). You should be looking at about $250 to $400 for your share. Gas money for your car, you are looking at an average of about $100 a month, depending on what you drive.
Food is obviously a little more difficult to gauge. You can eat off the dollar menu but that gets old pretty quick so you will want at least some fresh produce every now and then. You are looking at about $7 to $10 a day even eating the bare minimum. Water will cost you between $12 and $16 for a case of 24 small bottles.

You will need a mobile or internet connectivity because you are going to have a lot of down time to read. You can never stop reading and knowing all there is to know about counting. That will cost you about $60 a month? (carrier dependent)

If you want companionship it will cost you between $50 and $500 depending on who you phone or what casino you frequent.

As for a $25k bankroll, I would suggest at least double that. Even then it will be skinny but at least you can withstand some swings.

If I were you I would hook up with a team so you can explore other plays as soon as getting to town. You will have to show you can bring something to the table but I'm sure you can find a group of people that will take you in.

Get the number of a good lawyer.....you are going to need it!!!

Have fun and all the best!!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

How do you understand variance but not standard deviation? I think that variance is the harder one to understand.

Variance isn't really intuitive as a measure. It has nice properties for calculation (it's additive for independent events). Its units are "dollars squared" or "bets squared" which is why it is not intuitive -- what is a square dollar?

Standard deviation is a lot more intuitive, I think. It defines the size of a range of values, which your results have some known probability of falling within. It's just a pain to work with because it doesn't scale linearly as you bet more. (it's the square root of standard deviation)

I'm no expert but you can simply learn the SD for any number of bets inside a casino but using the formula for variance ((netpayi-ev))squared * Pi might be more intuitive?

Not sure if that is true or not. When i first started on statistics (and admittedly I have VERY limited knowledge) I found variance to be much easier to grasp then SD too.
Now that I have some experience I find SD much more valuable than VAR as you mentioned, it was just not that easy to comprehend for my pee brain!

Quote: Tomspur

I'm no expert but you can simply learn the SD for any number of bets inside a casino but using the formula for variance ((netpayi-ev))squared * Pi might be more intuitive?

Not sure if that is true or not. When i first started on statistics (and admittedly I have VERY limited knowledge) I found variance to be much easier to grasp then SD too.
Now that I have some experience I find SD much more valuable than VAR as you mentioned, it was just not that easy to comprehend for my pee brain!

Ok, I see what you mean. It's certainly easier to calculate (one less step).

However, as far as understanding what it actually means, standard deviation is a pretty clear concept. Variance is a lot tougher because it's in a counter-intuitive unit. Ok, so, your variance is 12 square dollars. What does that mean?

I guess, it's one think to calculate it, and another thing to understand the concept. I think that the latter is a lot more valuable.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Ok, I see what you mean. It's certainly easier to calculate (one less step).

However, as far as understanding what it actually means, standard deviation is a pretty clear concept. Variance is a lot tougher because it's in a counter-intuitive unit. Ok, so, your variance is 12 square dollars. What does that mean?

I guess, it's one think to calculate it, and another thing to understand the concept. I think that the latter is a lot more valuable.

No doubt you are correct about the usage but in order to understand how to use a statistical calculation you need to understand how you arrive at the calculation first.

I find that I use SD and confidence limits every day of my life now but I hardly bother with variance as it doesn't give me the info I need. SD is indeed very powerful but we should always see things from the beginners perspective and take things from there :)

I read your PM this morning RevJordan and was planning on responding in detail via PM, but since you started this thread, I will do so here, even though it will be lengthy, which some members hate. I particularly liked Djatc’s post and advice, and I want to echo some of his thoughts and expand based on my experience.

First about playing BJ for a living: It’s not an easy way to make a living. Long days and nights spent in casinos, constantly moving around, because you can’t just sit and play like poker, you have to play the ‘cat and mouse’ game avoiding backoffs and barings. Rude, drunk players blowing smoke in your face. Rude dealers…some but not all. Between travel to games, bouncing around between games, scouting etc, you spend almost 2 hours for every 1 hour of actual play time. And then there is losing. You do everything right, find good games to play, play well and then just lose. Days, weeks and even months at a time. It is little consolation that you are playing well and doing everything right when your bankroll is shrinking and you are losing. Bottom line: playing blackjack for a living has to be about a lot more than just a way to make money and/or a living. Blackjack and making a living playing blackjack has to be your passion.

Ok now living in Vegas: I don’t know much about living in Hawaii. I gather from this thread that cost of living there is expensive. Cost of living in Vegas is pretty cheap, whether you rent or are looking to buy property. People re-locating from California, or big cities back east, as I did, find this particularly attractive. So for a single guy, who wants to live cheap, you can find a fairly safe and reasonable place to live that won’t break the bank (roll). Like djatc, I love Vegas, love living in Vegas and have absolutely no regrets about my move 4+ years ago. More on that in a minute.

Bankroll: $25 grand is not enough to give yourself a reasonable chance to making a living playing blackjack. When asked, I say $50,000 bankroll is the MINIMUM amount needed. Up towards $100K is better, but $50K minimum. This will allow you to play $25 and up tables and spread green to light/mid black which you need to do to make any kind of decent money, while still playing at a safe RoR. Lower limit tables don’t work, your win rate is too low, they are crowded and rules really bad. If you are going to have a BR at the lower end of that $50K range, I recommend setting aside a year’s living expense separate from BR. There is no worse feeling than hitting one of those massive losing periods lasting several months and in addition to your BR shrinking from loses, you have to dig into it to pay rent and expenses. Just feels like an extra 'drain' on your BR.

Preparation: I don’t recommend anyone just start playing blackjack for a living. There is an education involved. Books, experience, and I recommend participation on several BJ sites, where there are a number of members that play BJ and/or other AP methods for a living. You can learn from their experiences as well as your own and network with other players. I actually believe my participation on a number of blackjack sites is probably the single biggest reason for the limited success that I have enjoyed over the last few years. I also think that this path of playing for a living works best if you can start off playing while having other income, at least part-time income that can pay at least some of your bills. Less stress that way as you go through the initial process.

I started my career 10 years ago, with a BR under 10K, which almost can't be done. You need to catch almost every break there is to catch and looking back, I did. But, I wouldn't recommend that path to anyone. You are more likely to hit the lottery. But, your situation has some similarities to when I relocated to Vegas 4+ years ago. At that time, I was 26 and single. I had just about a hundred grand, but I spent 40% of that on a down payment for a condo a block off the strip, which wasn’t the best of ideas. If I had that to do over, I would have rented while building BR further, but anyway after purchasing condo, I had just less than 60K bankroll to play with.

So I recommend you not do this with right now 25K. Save for a year or two years, first. Practice and learn all you can. I know that can seem like a long time. But really that is the exact kind of discipline, patience, and working towards goals that is required to make it as a professional player. And one last thing: DON'T freaking live out of your car.....even for a short time. We have enough homeless folks. You need a place to come home to, rest and recharge.

Quote: Tomspur

Water will cost you between $12 and $16 for a case of 24 small bottles.

If I were you I would hook up with a team so you can explore other plays as soon as getting to town. You will have to show you can bring something to the table but I'm sure you can find a group of people that will take you in.
!!

Where the hell are you buying water, is it Perrier ? Ill seel it to you for half price.


I doubt any counting team will take him in. The fact that he is asking this question, means he dose not know enough to succeed yet.

Seriously live in your car while counting cards * Face Palm* oh, you will smell real good. I can just imagine you rubbing little tree air freshener on your wrinkled clothing after a full night of pouring sweat. I would not live in this town, in the summer, with no air conditioning, for any amount of money.

Duplicate post....sorry.

I do not understand tomspurs post about buying a case of water for that much money. What am I missing?

Quote: sodawater

I do not understand tomspurs post about buying a case of water for that much money. What am I missing?

I was trying to remember what my wife pays for water, perhaps I got it wrong? Maybe $7 to $8???

sorry if I was misleading, wasn't my intention

Quote: RevJordan

Aloha guys!

Want to take a second to introduce myself! I'm a 25 year old Oregon native, been living in Hawaii the past 3 years. Started playing blackjack at the age of 18 at the tribal casinos around the Northwest. Picked up CC'ing a little over four years ago and have been practicing HI-LO plus indices (18&4) tirelessly ever since. I love everything about casinos and cards and I dream of making a living at it. I love this forum and have been reading for a little while and enjoy the good information and the *cough* witty *cough* banter! LOL

Anyways, my question. Would you take the risk of moving to Vegas and playing BJ full-time with a $25K bankroll tomorrow, or would you spend the next two years practicing/saving and come to Vegas with a 75K bankroll?

Side notes - I don't like Hawaii all that much (living on Oahu is like living in LA, just a lot more cramped. other islands are great but there's no work) and I don't plan on spending much more time doing the work I do (Special Inspector) and will be quitting within two years and either work for minimal wage back home or move to Vegas to count.

I did exactly what you are proposing with exactly the same bankroll. I was successful well beyond my expectations and was able to go part time after 12 years, having invested my winnings mainly in real estate. I still carve out a nice little profit to this day playing at my home casinos and on various trips throughout the year. Thankfully, I do not have to depend on that income.

Would I do it again? Not without adapting to today's environment. To me, that would mean a 100k bankroll and a large arsenal of AP plays that extend well beyond the blackjack table. Others may not share this opinion but I don't see straight counting alone as the most viable option going forward. Rules are deteriorating, surveillance is improving and casinos are sharing information like never before, presenting new and unique challenges for today's AP.

I will stop short of discouraging you and instead ask you to give this a lot of thought. It is not a glamorous life. Join the AP forums, read the stories of others before you, understand the commitment involved and make the decision that you feel is best for you.

Quote: AxelWolf

oh, you will smell real good.

That's +EV, he will always be heads up against the dealer... ;-)

Quote: 1BB

I did exactly what you are proposing with exactly the same bankroll. I was successful well beyond my expectations and was able to go part time after 12 years, having invested my winnings mainly in real estate. I still carve out a nice little profit to this day playing at my home casinos and on various trips throughout the year. Thankfully, I do not have to depend on that income...

Do you mean the same 'equivalent' bankroll, or do you mean $25K? It sounds like it was at minimum 12 years ago, and probably more. What would $25K from 15 years ago be in today dollars? $35K?

Quote: Tomspur

Water will cost you between $12 and $16 for a case of 24 small bottles.

Is the tap water in Vegas really that poor quality? In my experience, bottled water is one of the silliest, most wasteful (in terms of money AND natural resources) things that American consumer culture has foisted upon the masses. Granted I have only lived long-term in 3 different locations, but I can count on 1 hand the number of places I have even visited where the tap water was not safe or drinkable.

Quote:

Get the number of a good lawyer.....you are going to need it!!!

You should get the number for Bob Nersesian's office, and get his mobile number as well. Hopefully you never need to call it, but I have heard stories of APs getting out of a sticky situation just by showing his contact info on their speed dial.

As far as cheap living...read Mr. Money Mustache beginning to end! The average middle class american spends way too much money. Then again, if you are truly saving that much money and living on Oahu, then you're probably already an expert at this.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do you mean the same 'equivalent' bankroll, or do you mean $25K? It sounds like it was at minimum 12 years ago, and probably more. What would $25K from 15 years ago be in today dollars? $35K?

It was 25k. I have been playing since the 1970s and played full time from the late 70s into the early 90s.

Quote: 1BB

It was 25k. I have been playing since the 1970s and played full time from the late 70s into the early 90s.

1970? if you mean 25k back then, check it out. Shocking.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1970&year2=2014

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1980&year2=2014

Quote: odiousgambit

1970? if you mean 25k back then, check it out. Shocking.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1970&year2=2014

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1980&year2=2014

Holy crap! I was almost dead on with my 15 year and $35K, but I would have never guessed the amount from 1970. That is insane.
If I were to plan on a 40 year retirement, I would need to triple my IRAs.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Holy crap! I was almost dead on with my 15 year and $35K, but I would have never guessed the amount from 1970. That is insane.
If I were to plan on a 40 year retirement, I would need to triple my IRAs.

With an appropriate investment allocation, your IRAs should beat inflation by about 4% in the long run. As with gambling, short term variance can go either way.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Holy crap! I was almost dead on with my 15 year and $35K, but I would have never guessed the amount from 1970. That is insane.
If I were to plan on a 40 year retirement, I would need to triple my IRAs.

It's not that bad, now. Thank Paul Volcker for that. Inflation is a bitch, though.

Quote: teddys

It's not that bad, now. Thank Paul Volcker for that. Inflation is a bitch, though.

Thank the creature from Jekyll Island.

Everyone I really appreciate the responses.

The last six months I lived in the mainland, I lived 5 minutes from a tribal casino and played 4-7 days a week. I always counted using Hi-Lo, was not using any index. I was just red-chipping with a $5K BR, 1-12 spread and ended up with $7300 when I moved out here. Tried to keep records but I missed many nights. Best educated guess is 500 hours play total. I never ever got heat and I was as obvious as I could have possibly been without saying "Hi I'm here to count cards". I had a great rep with the pit and dealers, tipped okay (one or two units most nights).

The one thing I haven't experienced and don't think I'd be prepared for is serious heat. From what I hear it's very common and the thought of being barred really concerns me.

I'm studying now, trying to learn and really appreciate any input you guys have on good books/material.

Kewlj I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I really take to heart this advice, "But really that is the exact kind of discipline, patience, and working towards goals that is required to make it as a professional player." I've always taken pride on being level-headed and disciplined in all aspects, and consider myself very goal oriented. This is one of the big reasons why I feel I might have a chance at this life. Thank you.

Quote: RevJordan

I was just red-chipping with a $5K BR, 1-12 spread and ended up with $7300 when I moved out here. Tried to keep records but I missed many nights. Best educated guess is 500 hours play total.

The one thing I haven't experienced and don't think I'd be prepared for is serious heat. From what I hear it's very common and the thought of being barred really concerns me.

Here's another little piece of unsolicited advice, RevJordan....KEEP RECORDS! It doesn't have to be too detailed, but you should always know exactly how you are doing. Remember when your grandfather used to take you to the racetrack when you were a kid. You ask him, how he has done over his lifetime of betting horses and the answer was always "I'm about even". lol. News flash: He WASN'T about even. He would have know if he had kept records. :-) (actually I suspect he still knew he wasn't about even). But , serious player keep records and know just where they stand. I recommend getting into that habit.

Everyone worries about backoffs and barrings, until they have experienced a few. When I moved here, I was a little nervous about them, even though I had been playing fulltime for 5 year (east coast, where they could not backoff or barr players). They really aren't that big of a deal. I still have never been barred or trespassed from a property and backoffs have become very polite for the most case. I guess the industry has learned from some of these verdicts that have been handed out for the old backrooming and abusive behavior that was common not all that long ago. Today, backoffs mostly consist of a "no more blackjack sir". Often they are even accompanied by a so called compliment like Your play is too strong, or you are too good for us, no more blackjack but you are welcome to play any other game.

And backoffs are not permanent. You stay away for a short while and then return and play on different shift, being careful not to play with the same pit guy. Of course you never know if you are playing with the same surveillance guy. But even then, you will just get another backoff. I have been backed off on consecutive days at El Cortez, but admittedly, I was being a bit of an antagonist. It is best not to do that, as that makes you more memorable. Just say ok and walk away.

Quote: odiousgambit

1970? if you mean 25k back then, check it out. Shocking.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1970&year2=2014

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=1980&year2=2014

LOL, so 1BB basically went with 100K, not 25K. When I read the original post, I thought this was a terrible idea. The OP doesn't even know a strong set of strategy deviations. In my mind, he appears to be a novice asking if it is a good idea to attempt and get rich quick, or along the same vein. I am dealing with someone like that right now. Met him at a casino, and he wanted to learn how to count. I like talking blackjack, so I was happy to befriend him. Without going into too much detail, he operates with a semi-replenishable bankroll, operating at 40%+ ROR, takes insurance when he feels the count is high (which is usually correct, so I finally just told him when), wants to learn more about optimal spreads, and does not know that you stand on 15 v. 2. Do you see the most serious issue? Despite my repeating it over and over again, he wants to skip the basic strategy (step 1) since he already knows most of it. And if you don't think this error in thinking is serious, it not only takes away from a huge source of a counter's edge, skipping steps causes other kinds of errors in APing, due to a lack of experience and patience, that are hard to imagine. I'm not saying the OP is in that kind of boat, but I am saying the OP is getting way ahead of himself with even being tempted to move.

Quote: Sonuvabish

LOL, so 1BB basically went with 100K, not 25K. When I read the original post, I thought this was a terrible idea. The OP doesn't even know a strong set of strategy deviations. In my mind, he appears to be a novice asking if it is a good idea to attempt and get rich quick, or along the same vein. I am dealing with someone like that right now. Met him at a casino, and he wanted to learn how to count. I like talking blackjack, so I was happy to befriend him. Without going into too much detail, he operates with a semi-replenishable bankroll, operating at 40%+ ROR, takes insurance when he feels the count is high (which is usually correct, so I finally just told him when), wants to learn more about optimal spreads, and does not know that you stand on 15 v. 2. Do you see the most serious issue? Despite my repeating it over and over again, he wants to skip the basic strategy (step 1) since he already knows most of it. And if you don't think this error in thinking is serious, it not only takes away from a huge source of a counter's edge, skipping steps causes other kinds of errors due to a lack of experience in APing that are hard to imagine. I'm not saying the OP is in that kind of boat, but I am saying the OP is getting way ahead of himself with even being tempted to move.

The main tell he gave out, that he probably was not ready, was the living in the car thing. If you didn't know that's the worst idea in the world when card counting, what else don't you know?

Quote: AcesAndEights

I think that $25K is at the absolute lower limits of what might, maybe be feasible for a starting full-time bankroll. ... Save up, give yourself some wiggle room and unlock a higher betting level.

I think that is about the best advice ever. As long as your practicing is making you better.. keep practicing. Then do Vegas at a higher betting level and at the better casinos which are actually going to be less likely to back you off than the lesser casinos at lower limits.

If you begin to experience heat you may choose to incur some travel expenses early in your career so start with a higher amount.

Good luck.

Quote: Tomspur

Let me try and give you some practical figures......

Don't try and live out of your car. The Vegas heat is going to bend you over the hood and have your way with you. Even at night it can be ludicrous so that will be a tough thing to swing.
Having said that you can probably shack up with people and share an apartment or a small house with a pool (there are many here). You should be looking at about $250 to $400 for your share. Gas money for your car, you are looking at an average of about $100 a month, depending on what you drive.
Food is obviously a little more difficult to gauge. You can eat off the dollar menu but that gets old pretty quick so you will want at least some fresh produce every now and then. You are looking at about $7 to $10 a day even eating the bare minimum. Water will cost you between $12 and $16 for a case of 24 small bottles.

You will need a mobile or internet connectivity because you are going to have a lot of down time to read. You can never stop reading and knowing all there is to know about counting. That will cost you about $60 a month? (carrier dependent)

If you want companionship it will cost you between $50 and $500 depending on who you phone or what casino you frequent.

As for a $25k bankroll, I would suggest at least double that. Even then it will be skinny but at least you can withstand some swings.

If I were you I would hook up with a team so you can explore other plays as soon as getting to town. You will have to show you can bring something to the table but I'm sure you can find a group of people that will take you in.

Get the number of a good lawyer.....you are going to need it!!!

Have fun and all the best!!

wait what... water is $12 for a case in vegas? I just bought a case this morning for $2.24

nevermind, I guess I didn't read far enough before posting.