Player Banking in Negative Counts

Hey Everyone, wanted to pose this question and get some input from the community here.

I've been playing blackjack for about 12 years and have learned Hi-Lo pretty proficiently over those years. The problem is I live in California and the closest casino with decent rules is about 3 hours away from me. However, I've been counting 6:5 BJ for a while in what might not be a traditional way.

Heres the game.

$10-$500 - 6 Deck
6:5 BJ
DAS - Split to 2 max hands
No Resplit Aces, One card only after split
H17

According to the calculator this works out to be HE of 2.005% Realistic 2.03776% .... Indeed a truly horrible game for the player!
But this so far has been my strategy, and with the amount of crappy players on the table standing and hitting when they shouldn't has been working out wonderfully in my favor. I buy-in for $2500 flat bet $10 for my hands. Every two turns the opportunity to player bank is passed around. I wait until the TC goes -3 or lower and take the player banking opportunity. I do not bank on neutral or positive counts. Most players do not want to bank, so more often than not I have the ability to bank every two turns. Average bet on the table per player is usually around $40-$50 dollars, and I force the corporation to buy $100-$200 in action depending on the count for $5 per $100.

This year from playing this way I am up a very healthy amount. Has anyone else utilized this situation to their advantage here in California? Is it a viably sound way to get a nice advantage on an otherwise very crappy BJ game? I have no math to determine my advantage by playing this way, perhaps a math guru can workout the numbers for me to determine my edge when banking in this manner.

Quote: computerdude

Hey Everyone, wanted to pose this question and get some input from the community here.

I've been playing blackjack for about 12 years and have learned Hi-Lo pretty proficiently over those years. The problem is I live in California and the closest casino with decent rules is about 3 hours away from me. However, I've been counting 6:5 BJ for a while in what might not be a traditional way.

Heres the game.

$10-$500 - 6 Deck
6:5 BJ
DAS - Split to 2 max hands
No Resplit Aces, One card only after split
H17

According to the calculator this works out to be HE of 2.005% Realistic 2.03776% .... Indeed a truly horrible game for the player!
But this so far has been my strategy, and with the amount of crappy players on the table standing and hitting when they shouldn't has been working out wonderfully in my favor. I buy-in for $2500 flat bet $10 for my hands. Every two turns the opportunity to player bank is passed around. I wait until the TC goes -3 or lower and take the player banking opportunity. I do not bank on neutral or positive counts. Most players do not want to bank, so more often than not I have the ability to bank every two turns. Average bet on the table per player is usually around $40-$50 dollars, and I force the corporation to buy $100-$200 in action depending on the count for $5 per $100.

This year from playing this way I am up a very healthy amount. Has anyone else utilized this situation to their advantage here in California? Is it a viably sound way to get a nice advantage on an otherwise very crappy BJ game? I have no math to determine my advantage by playing this way, perhaps a math guru can workout the numbers for me to determine my edge when banking in this manner.

There's a 2% house edge off the top. If the players are playing badly, maybe you have a 3% edge. If you are paying $3 commission to bank, you need $100 in action to break even on that hand. With the TC at -3 your edge might be 4 to 4.5%, so you need less action.

I think that if people are betting enough, you should bank more often. Don't wait until your edge is up to 4%. You need to make back all the commission you are paying on your non-banking hands.

Actually that is one thing I forgot to mention. Non-Banking hands at this card room do not pay commission to play. Banking pays $1-$2 commission for the drop depending if the total base bets are under or over $50 across the table.

If players are willing to bet into you, definetly worth it. With the caveat that if the action against you is between 50 and 75 commission is a pain ($2 flat).

Quote: computerdude

Actually that is one thing I forgot to mention. Non-Banking hands at this card room do not pay commission to play. Banking pays $1-$2 commission for the drop depending if the total base bets are under or over $50 across the table.

Oh, that is not bad at all. At the place near me it's 1% commission (rounded up to the nearest dollar) and $3 to bank.

In that case you can certainly wait depending on your bankroll. You are paying about 20c per non-banked hand in EV (actually a little bit less because you bank on bad counts so you play fewer low counts than high ones -- it has a slight wong-out effect)

I would just apply Kelly criterion here and figure out how much you are willing to bet with each edge. Calculating your edge is pretty easy -- 2% + 0.5% per -TC - (commission / total action). Maybe add half a percent or a percent if the players are playing badly.

Variance is a little harder since it's dependent on the total number of hands in play, and how much they are betting relative to each other. But, you should be able to ballpark a reasonable amount to be willing to bank per percent of edge.

I would also get up and leave if there was not a significant amount of action each hand. You still need to overcome the losses from your non-banked hands!

Is this in Southern or Northern CA?

My advice is not to buy action from the corporation. With $5 juice per $100, you are giving up 5% already. Also, you should bank at any TC <=0. The three factors to determine whether or not it is an advantage play are 1) how much action you get, 2) how bad the players are to give you the extra edge, 3) how frequent you can bank. Stephen's website has discussed about it already (See http://discountgambling.net/no-bust-bj-oceans-11/)

I personally don't like this play because the advantage situation does not occur often. It is very usual that you don't get enough action or your banking frequency is low. But the players in general don't know full basic strategy and I can assume they give up 1% edge more.

Quote: Kickass

My advice is not to buy action from the corporation. With $5 juice per $100, you are giving up 5% already.

He said it was $1 for below $50 and $2 for $50 or more.

At $5 per $100 it would be a very different story. I've never seen that before, though. They usually cap it at $3. The deal that the OP mentioned is way better, especially since you don't need to pay commission on non-banked hands.

Yea the 5 dollars is what I pay the corp to play a hand when I am banking. I have given this much though, as you are right, I am giving up 5% off the bat at a shot at making $95 back. So if that's the case, I pay 2$ to bank, plus 5$ to force the corp to play a hand. I guess in the long run the only way that would make sense is if it's at a TC -7, which does happen from time to time, but they also play strictly to strategy unlike the crappy players. This is in Norcal.

How does the corp split and double?

Quote: computerdude

Yea the 5 dollars is what I pay the corp to play a hand when I am banking. I have given this much though, as you are right, I am giving up 5% off the bat at a shot at making $95 back. So if that's the case, I pay 2$ to bank, plus 5$ to force the corp to play a hand. I guess in the long run the only way that would make sense is if it's at a TC -7, which does happen from time to time, but they also play strictly to strategy unlike the crappy players. This is in Norcal.

I am very confused. You have to pay the corporation $5 to force them to play a hand?

If they do not play a hand when you bank then they are not eligible to bank next hand. This is CA law. Banking is for established players only. If you walk up to a table and want to bank without having played a hand, they won't let you. The corp is no different than any other player.

If the corporation does not play a hand while you are banking, then you can continue banking.

Quote: endermike

How does the corp split and double?

Corp splits and doubles according to basic strategy.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I am very confused. You have to pay the corporation $5 to force them to play a hand?

If they do not play a hand when you bank then they are not eligible to bank next hand. This is CA law. Banking is for established players only. If you walk up to a table and want to bank without having played a hand, they won't let you. The corp is no different than any other player.

If the corporation does not play a hand while you are banking, then you can continue banking.

See this is confusing to me too, because I too thought that was the law as well. But in every card room (at least in northern California) I have yet to ever see the corporation play hands when players are banking. What I've seen is when the player banks the corp still has to pay $1-$2 even though they do not play a hand. Some card rooms give you the option of buying action from the corp and forcing them to play for a 5% commission, others don't give you that option and the corp just sits out pays their $1-$2 and waits for the player to complete their 2 banking turns.

Quote: computerdude

Corp splits and doubles according to basic strategy.



See this is confusing to me too, because I too thought that was the law as well. But in every card room (at least in northern California) I have yet to ever see the corporation play hands when players are banking. What I've seen is when the player banks the corp still has to pay $1-$2 even though they do not play a hand. Some card rooms give you the option of buying action from the corp and forcing them to play for a 5% commission, others don't give you that option and the corp just sits out pays their $1-$2 and waits for the player to complete their 2 banking turns.

Hmm. I guess if you pay the commission that "keeps you in the game"?

The one time I have done this, the corporation played 1 hand at the table minimum ($5), claiming that she had to "stay in the game". The girl also said "I have to play the hand house way", which she took to mean "mimic the dealer", which is obviously not a good way to play a blackjack hand. I think that she was used to PGP and was confused.

Anyway, don't buy action from them. Other than that, it sounds like you have a good thing going.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Hmm. I guess if you pay the commission that "keeps you in the game"?

I wish as a player I had that opportunity, sit out hands and only pay the fee rather than gamble on the min bet with a horrible edge. This is only allowed as the corp-dealer though, which seems entirely unfair. But I'm not going to complain, I've been making good coin thusfar at California Crapjack

Quote: computerdude

I wish as a player I had that opportunity, sit out hands and only pay the fee rather than gamble on the min bet with a horrible edge. This is only allowed as the corp-dealer though, which seems entirely unfair. But I'm not going to complain, I've been making good coin thusfar at California Crapjack

I thought that you said that there was no fee for non-banked hands?

Playing a hand at $10 with a 2% edge against you (and no commission) is a lot better than paying a $1 commission and not playing a hand.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I thought that you said that there was no fee for non-banked hands?

Playing a hand at $10 with a 2% edge against you (and no commission) is a lot better than paying a $1 commission and not playing a hand.

I guess I didn't think the math through on that one, your right. Theoretical loss over time to me is .20c by playing, and if I had the option the corporate banker has of not playing and paying $1-$2 regardless is a bigger loss. Guess I had a brain fart there for a moment.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I am very confused. You have to pay the corporation $5 to force them to play a hand?

If they do not play a hand when you bank then they are not eligible to bank next hand. This is CA law. Banking is for established players only. If you walk up to a table and want to bank without having played a hand, they won't let you. The corp is no different than any other player.

If the corporation does not play a hand while you are banking, then you can continue banking.

Hi AxiomOfChoice, I did some banking in southern Cal. In south Cal like Ocean 11, the corporation there has a special privilege that they don't need to play a hand when you bank to continue their banking session. I am not sure whether they are breaking law but I am sure this is happening there.