Card Counting is Illegal...What if?

Sorry if the title was a little strange, but I wanted to ask a weird question: what do you think Blackjack might be like today if a court (in North America) in the 60's, 80's (or whatever history) declared that card counting WAS illegal? Perhaps with jail time like REAL cheating. Do you think that blackjack would still be around today? Would authors still write about the game? I'm not trying to start a debate about the morals of CCing, but trying to have a fantasy "what if" type of discussion. (e.g. what if Germany won WWII, Dole won the 96 election, the Dodo didn't become extinct, etc)
Replies and thoughts appreciated.

I think that proving a player was actually counting would still be a challenge. As such, there would be little difference. People suspect of counting would get backed off or trespassed as they are today.

But actual prosecution and prison time? It's not worth the effort or bad publicity.

Wait a minute! After reading PGDan's many posts, I thought card counting IS illegal. :-)

But, Your Honor, I swear I didn't notice all the small cards coming out. I was just betting big. lol

I think categorizing card counting as a crime would be extremely difficult to enforce and thus not much would change.

But, if there was an enforceable way to arrest and convict counters, I think the landscape of BJ would be very different. In my opinion, one of the main reasons BJ is so popular is that the general public thinks it can be beaten although few take the time to learn how play basic strategy, appropriately bet size, make appropriate index plays, and bet within their bankroll.

Again, assuming we ignore the fact that it would be difficult to enforce, with counting, the public perception of the game would be different, and therefore not as popular as it is.

Quote: nvr55xx

Sorry if the title was a little strange, but I wanted to ask a weird question: what do you think Blackjack might be like today if a court (in North America) in the 60's, 80's (or whatever history) declared that card counting WAS illegal? Perhaps with jail time like REAL cheating. Do you think that blackjack would still be around today? Would authors still write about the game? I'm not trying to start a debate about the morals of CCing, but trying to have a fantasy "what if" type of discussion. (e.g. what if Germany won WWII, Dole won the 96 election, the Dodo didn't become extinct, etc)
Replies and thoughts appreciated.

I challenge to you define "card counting" in a meaningful way.

Say you are playing single deck. On the first round you have 7,7 against a 10. You stand. Is that card counting?

Say you are playing single deck, 2 hands. On the first round, you stand on 7,7 against a 10. You look at your 2nd hand and see 8,6. You stand as well. Is that card counting?

Say you are playing single deck, 3 hands. On the first round, the dealer shows an ace. Your 3 hands consist of: 7,6 ; 2,4; 9,2. You insure all 3 hands. Is that card counting?

My response is that casinos would protect the game to the point where it would be impossible to count.

Casinos know that counting is a mind game and is the only casino table game where a mental skill can beat the game. If the penalty for using your mind was a jail term, i think that casinso would all move to CSM and 5+ decks to eliminate that possibilty.

Casinos have the benefit. They can back off players who are doing well counting cards and suck the dollars from players who are not doing well counting cards. If it was illegal with jail time, it would only be in casino's best interests to remove the possibility of cheating with the mind.

In my opinion...

Card Counting is thinking.
Or more precisely acting using that thinking.
If the action itself is legal (placing a bet, increasing the level of a bet, making a playing decision of hit/stand etc), I fail to see how such a law could be drafted so that even the action itself is legal when you think before you do that action then the action is illegal. Or maybe the thinking itself is illegal.
I fail to see how any law in a democratic country could oulaw that and even if such a law was passed, how it would be constitutional.

Actually the opposite can in many democratic countries be illegal.
Banning a counter from entry into a casino OR even putting restrictions or otherwise discriminating against a counter (flatbetting etc).
Like you cannot ban entry to a casino (or discriminate) based on Race because there are very strict laws against racial discrimination,
the same normally applies with regard to other personal characteristics, ie ban fat people. I think there was a case where a restaurant banned a fat person who was eating too much from their buffet and he successfully sued and won.
The same should apply with regard to someone's intelligence, memory or other such trait.
And I think such cases were won in some European Countries (I think Spain), that's why in these countries all the BJ games are CSM.
In the US as I understand only in New Jersey such a legal decision was won (ie cannot ban counters) but they can still discriminate (ie flatbetting)

Quote: kewlj

Wait a minute! After reading PGDan's many posts, I thought card counting IS illegal. :-)

And also immoral, don't overlook that !

Quote: AceTwo

Card Counting is thinking.
Or more precisely acting using that thinking.
If the action itself is legal (placing a bet, increasing the level of a bet, making a playing decision of hit/stand etc), I fail to see how such a law could be drafted so that even the action itself is legal when you think before you do that action then the action is illegal. Or maybe the thinking itself is illegal.
I fail to see how any law in a democratic country could oulaw that and even if such a law was passed, how it would be constitutional.

Actually the opposite can in many democratic countries be illegal.
Banning a counter from entry into a casino OR even putting restrictions or otherwise discriminating against a counter (flatbetting etc).
Like you cannot ban entry to a casino (or discriminate) based on Race because there are very strict laws against racial discrimination,
the same normally applies with regard to other personal characteristics, ie ban fat people. I think there was a case where a restaurant banned a fat person who was eating too much from their buffet and he successfully sued and won.
The same should apply with regard to someone's intelligence, memory or other such trait.
And I think such cases were won in some European Countries (I think Spain), that's why in these countries all the BJ games are CSM.
In the US as I understand only in New Jersey such a legal decision was won (ie cannot ban counters) but they can still discriminate (ie flatbetting)

So, basically, you are saying that if casinos weren't allowed to back off skilled players, the blackjack games would all suck.

I agree, and this is one reason that I support the right of the casinos to refuse to do business with whomever they wish. Game on!

Even if it were to be illegal how would they possibly prove it? I am pretty sure most courts would laugh the casino out... There is no way to prove what somebody does or does not have memorized in their head.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I think that proving a player was actually counting would still be a challenge.

Quote: AceTwo

Card Counting is thinking.

These.

Imagine we're in one of the states where adultery is illegal. And adultery is defined using the Biblical definition, ie, just thinking about it is doing it. How do you police that?

As it is, we still cannot prove one is counting. We gather evidence and see where it points. If enough of it points to a possibility, we take action. We don't know, we can't know. We basically "play it safe rather than sorry".

Since this is a fantasy example, we will also pretend that we're innocent until proven guilty (see what I did there?), and I don't see how anyone would ever be busted.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

So, basically, you are saying that if casinos weren't allowed to back off skilled players, the blackjack games would all suck.

I agree, and this is one reason that I support the right of the casinos to refuse to do business with whomever they wish. Game on!

Yes, I agree with that and prefer the cat and mouse game with the casino than no game at all as in all CSM games.

BUT still thinking the legal position of barring someone based on skill (or even dicriminate in any way) is similar (if not the same) to barring someone based on race, gender etc.

Quote: AceTwo

Yes, I agree with that and prefer the cat and mouse game with the casino than no game at all as in all CSM games.

BUT still thinking the legal position of barring someone based on skill (or even dicriminate in any way) is similar (if not the same) to barring someone based on race, gender etc.

Just playing devil's advocate - you have choice over whether or not you are counting - you don't have a choice over race, gender, etc.

Quote: AceTwo

BUT still thinking the legal position of barring someone based on skill (or even dicriminate in any way) is similar (if not the same) to barring someone based on race, gender etc.

Legally? Race and gender are protected classes. Intelligence is not.

Would you want to gamble if you decide to bet large and be winning only to be thrown in jail? It would scare people from playing and they would bet on other games.

Actually if casinos are running counts themselves knowing a gambler is betting larger with the count against them, saying swell and giving them a marker probably should be criminal.

If thought were to be made illegal (Card-Counting is a thought-process) we're all screwed. Imagine your tax-computations without a print-out of the process.

Okay. so this fantasy law says that card counting is illegal (for the benefit of those not realizing we are in fantasy land).

It wouldn't be that hard for the casino to bring in the video of the person playing BJ. They would show the count, and you would see the player making the bets. After a while, enough sessions and history would show that this player is making plays according to the count. The only way to avoid this would be to make wrong plays on occasion, or not take advantage of the count. But that would cost the player any edge they were gaining.

But, now we get to the kicker. As the casino I would let you play, and keep gathering history. Then one night you get a great run, and take my casino for a big score. I call the cops, have you arrested for illegal counting, AND, then ask them to confiscate your winnings, since they were gained illegally. Bring the video history to court, and put your cash back in my vault.

If card counting were illegal, would it not also be illegal for the casino to keep track of the count? (No one said that the betting pattern was illegal, just the tracking of the count!)

This is akin to shooting your parents, and asking for mercy because you are now an orphan.

Quote: wudged

Just playing devil's advocate - you have choice over whether or not you are counting - you don't have a choice over race, gender, etc.

Actually I don't. I had the choice before I learned counting.
But now it's kind of automatic. It does not really require an effort to do it. I would feel bored to death if I sat on a table and did not count.
Now the option is not to play at all.
It's like if you are roulette player playing with patterns (just guessing here) and see that black has come 10 times in a row and bet black (if your system is that the pattern continues) or red (if your system says that red is overdue). You cannot really expect that roulette player not to notice the pattern and not use that info.
The same way you cannot really expect me not to notice this patter of more small cards coming out that big ones (although this relates to the last 150 cards) even though a non counter might notice the same pattern in the last 20 cards of 1 round of a full table.

Let's push the fantasy thread of card counting legality to the 'beyond reasonable doubt' terriitory.
This is a fantasy thread so the issue is not of the game being illegal but the casino can ban you if they can prove card counting.
So you get the tap on the shoulder and the suit say: "Sorry sir we suspect you are counting and we are banning you from BJ for that reason. Under clause 6.23 of the regulations you are allowed to dispute this ruling and if you do we are obliged to go to the Special Counting Arbitration court to rule whether you are counting. If the court rules that you are not counting, you are very welcome to come back"
Provided the court is a proper court and the ruling comes out from expert statistical analysis of my game and the 'beyond reasonable doubt' applies, I would be very glad to be in such a position. Provided you do not play too long in an establishement and throw in a few cover plays and the 'beyond reasonable doubt' gets you free to play again.