Charitable Gaming: BlackJack ?
Quote: IbeatyouracesWell, the odds of winning remain the same, the HE is higher with shaved payouts. Typically in charity roulette, a straight up number pays anywhere from 25 to 30:1 instead of the normal 35:1
I get that, but someone can stick to red/black/even/odd and still get "fair" odds (for some definition of "fair" that includes a house edge well north of 5%) (I assume that those still pay 1:1?)
Same with craps; you can pay double/double on the field (or even double/single) and 25 to 1 on boxcars but I can still bet the pass line and get my money down with the 1.4% edge that I'd get in Vegas. (Again, I assume that the pass line still pays 1:1?)
Dealer takes ties is just an abomination. It's worse than 6:5. Hell, it's worse than even money for blackjacks. Much worse, in fact. It's just not blackjack any more. And the worst part is that it requires strategy changes that no one who is willing to play that game is going to figure out. If they play by normal blackjack basic strategy they will lose by even more.
It really is exactly like a carnie sucker game, where it looks like it's easy (or at least possible) to win, but the sucker really has no chance. Just throw the ball into the bucket! Or the ring over the coke bottle! You get 3 tries!
Quote: IbeatyouracesTrust me, if anyone knows these blackjack rules are bad, it's me. It's been this way for many many years.
Oh, I know that you know.
But if you want to sit down and play and donate a couple of hundred bucks to charity while having a beer, that's fine. You know exactly what you're getting into and it's your money.
But I think that there should at least be warning signs for the suckers ("dealer takes all ties" doesn't cut it; the sucker has no clue what effect that has on the game)
I shudder to think that edge an average player is giving up. 12%?
Quote: IbeatyouracesPossibly, but that's why they also add in other player friendly rules like bj pays 2:1 and five card charlies automatically win. Still a rotten game overall but surely softens the blow a little
Ok, I hadn't considered that.
Five card charlie is interesting in conjunction with ties win. One rule makes you hit more; the other less. I am curious to see what the strategy would look like.
2:1 is certainly nice. So maybe the average player is playing with a 10% edge?
Quote:And remember this, you can write your losses off as a donation.
Really? That sounds suspect. You usually can't write off donations if you are getting something in return for them (or, at least, you have to discount the FMV of the thing that you get in return).
Quote: IbeatyouracesPossibly, but that's why they also add in other player friendly rules like bj pays 2:1 and five card charlies automatically win. Still a rotten game overall but surely softens the blow a little.
And remember this, you can write your losses off as a donation.
A
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOk, I hadn't considered that.
Five card charlie is interesting in conjunction with ties win. One rule makes you hit more; the other less. I am curious to see what the strategy would look like.
2:1 is certainly nice. So maybe the average player is playing with a 10% edge?
Really? That sounds suspect. You usually can't write off donations if you are getting something in return for them (or, at least, you have to discount the FMV of the thing that you get in return).
In Michigan, any gambling loss is tax deductible. I believe the same applies for federal as well. You can't double dip though...it's either a donation or, it's a gambling loss. One can not claim the same as both.
And, by paying 2:1 on a BJ, versus 3:2 it's actually (according to the Wizard) gives the player a +2.27 HE. And, a 5-card charlie adds 1.46 to that. Plus, a player 21 vs. dealer blackjack is a push adds another .21% to the player.
Yes, there's still a HE gap but, it's not a one-way street, as you assert.
Quote: RivaIn Michigan, any gambling loss is tax deductible. I believe the same applies for federal as well.
I won't commend on michigan law (since I have no idea) but it is absolutely not deductible federally. Losses are only deductible up to your total gambling wins, and only if you itemize (otherwise you can't deduct any gambling losses at all). Since most people are losing players who rarely, if ever, have a winning year, so most people can never deduct gambling losses federally.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI won't commend on michigan law (since I have no idea) but it is absolutely not deductible federally. Losses are only deductible up to your total gambling wins, and only if you itemize (otherwise you can't deduct any gambling losses at all). Since most people are losing players who rarely, if ever, have a winning year, so most people can never deduct gambling losses federally.
"Crest has been shown to be an effective decay preventive dentifrice that can be of significant value when used in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care." Bla, bla, bla....
Quote: Riva"Crest has been shown to be an effective decay preventive dentifrice that can be of significant value when used in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care." Bla, bla, bla....
Is this your way of saying that you're wrong but you don't care?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIs this your way of saying that you're wrong but you don't care?
No, it's my way of saying that I am right, that you are wrong and, I, as well as the rest of humankind, don't care that you are wrong.
Sincerely.. you should give up while you are so far behind.
In any event, I forgive you. :)
Quote: RivaNo, it's my way of saying that I am right, that you are wrong and, I, as well as the rest of humankind, don't care that you are wrong.
Sincerely.. you should give up while you are so far behind.
In any event, I forgive you. :)
So you think that you can deduct your gambling losses (beyond your wins) on your federal tax return?
I guess you're allowed to be wrong... your wilful ignorance is a little surprising though. It's not like it's hard to look this information up.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf the charity for which the gaming is being held is an approved charity (there is a process that the charity needs to go through) and Riva is providing receipts that clearly name that charity, the deduction can be taken as a cash donation on federal taxes under charitable deductions for the amount of the losses. Doesn't have to go under gambling deductions like those lost to a for-profit business. Riva's administrative costs do not seem to be so high as to invalidate the method of fundraising for them, and it's an administrative cost for her to charge back for pro dealers and depreciated gaming equipment, just like the printers who do the address labels for this charity or the tote bags providers for that charity. The receipts are important, though; but it would be up to the taxpayer to declare their loss amounts, not Riva's group to verify them. Just like when you donate to Goodwill or Salvation Army; most of them will not itemize your donation; they will just provide a receipt with the letterhead, date, and signature. You fill in the items, condition, purchase price, and value.
Egggggszactlee!
Quote:In Michigan, any gambling loss is tax deductible. I believe the same applies for federal as well.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf the charity for which the gaming is being held is an approved charity (there is a process that the charity needs to go through) and Riva is providing receipts that clearly name that charity, the deduction can be taken as a cash donation on federal taxes under charitable deductions for the amount of the losses. Doesn't have to go under gambling deductions like those lost to a for-profit business. Riva's administrative costs do not seem to be so high as to invalidate the method of fundraising for them, and it's an administrative cost for her to charge back for pro dealers and depreciated gaming equipment, just like the printers who do the address labels for this charity or the tote bags providers for that charity. The receipts are important, though; but it would be up to the taxpayer to declare their loss amounts, not Riva's group to verify them. Just like when you donate to Goodwill or Salvation Army; most of them will not itemize your donation; they will just provide a receipt with the letterhead, date, and signature. You fill in the items, condition, purchase price, and value.
Actually, why do you think that this is true? IRS pub 526 seems to contradict it.
Listed under things that you cannot deduct:
Quote: 2013 IRS pub 526Costs of raffles, bingo, lottery, etc. You cannot deduct as a charitable contribution amounts you pay to buy raffle or lottery tickets or to play bingo or other games of chance. For information on how to report gambling winnings and losses, see Deductions Not Subject to the 2% Limit in Publication 529.
Are you saying that gaming chips are treated differently than bingo cards and raffle tickets? Is there some IRS publication or ruling that makes this clear?
Quote: Riva"Crest has been shown to be an effective decay preventive dentifrice that can be of significant value when used in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care." Bla, bla, bla....
Brylcreem - A Little Dab'll Do Ya!
1. Leave the 5-card charlie in as a trade-off to house takes ties
2. Set minimum/maximum at $1-10 for the majority of tables. Perhaps offer 3-4 $5-$10 "high roller" tables and, if they don't fill, flip them to $1-$10's
3. Forget about "surrenders" because the dealers will screw it up. Plus, it slows down the game.
4. Continue with 2:1 on a BJ as a trade off for ties and, that it speeds up the game.
Anything else? Anybody? Buehler? Anybody?
Quote: RivaSo, the consensus is that ...
1. Leave the 5-card charlie in as a trade-off to house takes ties
2. Set minimum/maximum at $1-10 for the majority of tables. Perhaps offer 3-4 $5-$10 "high roller" tables and, if they don't fill, flip them to $1-$10's
3. Forget about "surrenders" because the dealers will screw it up. Plus, it slows down the game.
4. Continue with 2:1 on a BJ as a trade off for ties and, that it speeds up the game.
Anything else? Anybody? Buehler? Anybody?
Whatever it is, it's way better than what my church runs at their festival. I played just as a donation to the church, dropping $5 for a few minutes of fun, no different from buying a couple of corn dogs; if I want to win, I'll take a drive to Pittsburgh and play.
My church's rules:
--BJ pays 2-1 (regardless of dealer hand)
--Stand on soft 17
--House takes all ties except on Blackjack
--Shoe game (looked like somewhere between 4-6 decks)
--Insurance pays 1-1
--Dealer peeks for Blackjack
Needless to say, they attract only casual players.
Quote: hwccdealerWhatever it is, it's way better than what my church runs at their festival. I played just as a donation to the church, dropping $5 for a few minutes of fun, no different from buying a couple of corn dogs; if I want to win, I'll take a drive to Pittsburgh and play.
My church's rules:
--BJ pays 2-1 (regardless of dealer hand)
--Stand on soft 17
--House takes all ties except on Blackjack
--Shoe game (looked like somewhere between 4-6 decks)
--Insurance pays 1-1
--Dealer peeks for Blackjack
Needless to say, they attract only casual players.
- We pay 2:1 on BJ. If both dealer and player have BJ, it's 1:1
- We must hit on soft 17
- House takes all ties except on BJ..ditto
- We play with 8 decks. dealers NEVER shuffle
- No insurance bets. Dealers are confused and it slows down the game.
- We peek too
And, with all these horrible rules, we also charge $5 to get in the room. That said, players are lined up 200 feet waiting to get in!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceActually, why do you think that this is true? IRS pub 526 seems to contradict it.
Listed under things that you cannot deduct:
Are you saying that gaming chips are treated differently than bingo cards and raffle tickets? Is there some IRS publication or ruling that makes this clear?
Why do you seem to think that no reasonable argument ever exists to "not" cheat on your taxes? ;)
Quote: SonuvabishWhy do you seem to think that no reasonable argument ever exists to "not" cheat on your taxes? ;)
I'm not saying that people don't cheat on their taxes. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't. But when people say "you can deduct something", they usually mean that that it's legal to do so, not that they are just going to make up some shit and hope that the IRS doesn't notice.
In this case, I assume that Babs actually thought that it was legal to deduct this (she doesn't strike me as the tax-cheat type) and so I was pointing out that this wasn't the case.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm not saying that people don't cheat on their taxes. I'm not even saying that they shouldn't. But when people say "you can deduct something", they usually mean that that it's legal to do so, not that they are just going to make up some shit and hope that the IRS doesn't notice.
In this case, I assume that Babs actually thought that it was legal to deduct this (she doesn't strike me as the tax-cheat type) and so I was pointing out that this wasn't the case.
I know I was kidding, hence the winking face. I didn't look up anything, but my first impression is that it would not be deductible since you're getting something of value, or gambling, either or--as opposed to making a charitable donation. And your explanation, containing references, is more persuasive than Babs'. But it's not like I'd actually use your explanation for anything practical in real life, like filing my taxes. ;)
Quote: SonuvabishI know I was kidding, hence the winking face. I didn't look up anything, but my first impression is that it would not be deductible since you're getting something of value, or gambling, either or--as opposed to making a charitable donation. And your explanation, containing references, is more persuasive than Babs'. But it's not like I'd actually use your explanation for anything practical in real life, like filing my taxes. ;)
I think it would be wise for anyone in this position to see a tax professional. I won't continue the argument here.
