Counting In Vegas

Quote: EvenBob

When you ask them if counting is against
the rules, they always, ALWAYS, say no.
Count your head off, they say. For something
that's against the rules, Dan, you seem to be
the only one that knows it.

Why in the world do you think I'd express here what I expressed when on a table?
And do you think pit personnel would discuss their game protection policies with John Q./Bob Q. public?

On a table, I would say, "counting? what's THAAT?" then I'd start the red flash on player position x on the D.A.R.T. screen, and the player would be checked out.

Quote: Paigowdan

Green action AP is low-roller, true. And at locals casinos, not strip. But the attitude was not much of "sweating" but of "Really? - take it out of here"

It's never been a problem for me. There are places that don't even sweat black chips.

Quote:

No. It's more of behavior and knowing the AP/getting a photo

This is not important to the OP. In my initial reply, I pointed out that things might be different if he was a local. This is a guy flying in from the other side of the world to party on his 21st birthday. Who cares if they know that he likes to count?

Quote:

Or the way the shift manager/TDR wants them done.
There is a bit of the "broken window" aspect: allow or see too many broken windows in a neighborhood, you lose control and see a proliferation.

So you admit that it's a moral thing for you. My point is, you are telling him about all this bad stuff that could happen, not because it could actually happen, but because you want to scare him into doing things the way that you think is right. That's disgraceful behavior on your part, IMO. Don't count cards or the boogeyman will get you!

FWIW, this is why the common advice from everyone is that he should ignore everything you say. It's because everyone here knows that you are willing to lie (or at least greatly exaggerate) in order to try to convince people to do things the way that you think that they should be done.

Quote:

Clamp down on shoe penetration and give a group of back offs, word gets out and the joint is ignored as a go-to place to AP, a "why bother with xxxx, it'll just waste our time."

Not really. If I'm taking down real money, I'd like nothing more than for security to be wasting their time and attention on the red-chip game.

Quote: Paigowdan

This is especially if he is here on vacation, if he gets flat-betted or backed off with a "c'mon, buddy, really now?" God forbid he has a lady with him, and she thinks, "God, what a jerk, now we gotta leave."

My wife is usually with me when card counting and I have won a good amount of money without a backoff or being flat betted. She enjoys playing while I back count and tell her to raise her bets on good counts. Casinos are reluctant to bar a couple from playing if the bets are low enough to not bring heat.

Recently, we had a great experience at the TI in Las Vegas where we both made minimum bets on low counts and made $75 bets when we had the advantage over the casino. The TI double deck blackjack minimum bet was $10 and our $75 maximum bets did not get a "checks play" announcement from the dealer to the pit. If the count was low, I'd sit out till the next shuffle. Basically a 1-15 spread without heat! The heat came after we racked up $1000 with a stare down from a pit boss five inches from my face. We cashed out and my wife said she enjoyed the experience. She says she can't wait to wake up the TI pit the next time we are in Vegas.

Quote: JSTAT

The heat came after we racked up $1000 with a stare down from a pit boss five inches from my face.

When that happens, ask him an innocent question,
like, did you ever work at MGM? I swear I saw you
there. This will throw him off his game and he'll
leave you alone. Try it. They like to intimidate you
with that 'prison bitch' stare, and it really bugs them
when you aren't intimidated by it.

Quote: JSTAT

My wife is usually with me when card counting and I have won a good amount of money without a backoff or being flat betted. She enjoys playing while I back count and tell her to raise her bets on good counts. Casinos are reluctant to bar a couple from playing if the bets are low enough to not bring heat.

Recently, we had great experience at the TI in Las Vegas where we both made minimum bets on low counts and made $75 bets when we had the advantage over the casino. The TI double deck blackjack minimum bet was $15 and our $75 maximum bets did not get a "checks play" announcement from the dealer to the pit. If the count was low, I'd sit out till the next shuffle. Basically a 1 -10 spread without heat. The heat came after we racked up $1000 with a stare down from a pit boss five inches from my face. We cashed out and my wife said she enjoyed the experience. She says she can't wait to wake up the TI pit the next time we are in Vegas.

You know, husband/wife combos are good cover. They'd assume you just came from a show or dinner, and want to play some innocent cards very ploppie-like.

Quote: Tomspur

I agree with most of what you say just that I don't believe it is a casino rule per say. If there is a decision to be made based on available facts them I don't think it is a rule but rather guidelines to follow based on said information.
There is no hard and fast rule, just interpretation by management.

Thanks for the chat. I have the A380 to catch to Seoul. Pretty excited.

Don't drink too much Soju! lol. :)

I'll pm you the Seoul Subway link. Korail workers are currently on strike, therefore some of the trains and subway lines are running on a reduced schedule.

In case you are interested, Walker Hill (in Gwangnaru) has a NLHE tourney 165,000 ₩ (~ $155 US) on Saturday at 2:00pm., and a small 55,000 ₩ tourney on Sunday at 2:00pm.

Also, not sure if you have been here before or not, but the exchange rates are a ripoff at the airport and the banks as well, and of course the worst rate is at the casinos. The best rates are actually outside the US military bases at the money exchanges. Itaewon is the closest.

This has been a very interesting thread. I've been somewhat lucky at the local place playing greens, that BJ is now financing my 2-5 poker during a recent cold card streak.
My first time turning $75 to about $600, I had the main pit guy start a convo with me, which I thought was weird. It was at a shoe table. But now I play mostly CSM and the whole staff seems to busy OK'ing $100 buy ins to notice me, if my play is AP or just lucky.
However, I think everyone should slow their roll and just walk into the VIP room and cash out one time and see what real money looks like. People walking around with sets of trays like Matt Damon in Rounders. I doubt they really care.
On the other hand, it is BS that casinos can back off players just because they win. They sell the dream you can win, but if you do it, you get axed.
Nonetheless, I am green chipping it and dudes next to me are black chipping, playing crazy, winning, and not getting any heat.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

So you admit that it's a moral thing for you. My point is, you are telling him about all this bad stuff that could happen, not because it could actually happen, but because you want to scare him into doing things the way that you think is right. That's disgraceful behavior on your part, IMO. Don't count cards or the boogeyman will get you!

boogeyman?
No.
Pointing out real possibilities and results is for both his knowledge and his call, and no, it is not despicable.

Quote: Axiomofchoice

FWIW, this is why the common advice from everyone is that he should ignore everything you say. It's because everyone here knows that you are willing to lie (or at least greatly exaggerate) in order to try to convince people to do things the way that you think that they should be done.

No, I was very forthright about how it's viewed by operators as an undesirable thing, how AP can shorten playing life and casino welcome, and that it is not gambling per se but work, and is of deceitful/false pretense, all of which are true or have merit in POV.
As for being ignored versus being esteemed, if I was eye-to-eye with many gamblers and most AP's, I'd feel uncomfortable.

Quote: Axiomofchoice

Not really. If I'm taking down real money, I'd like nothing more than for security to be wasting their time and attention on the red-chip game.

Well, it's the big money that gets the big attention.

Quote: UTHfan

...
On the other hand, it is BS that casinos can back off players just because they win. They sell the dream you can win, but if you do it, you get axed.
Nonetheless, I am green chipping it and dudes next to me are black chipping, playing crazy, winning, and not getting any heat.

believe it or not, I fully agree. Winning is not the issue, and casinos should applaud their winners.

Quote: UTHfan

This has been a very interesting thread. I've been somewhat lucky at the local place playing greens, that BJ is now financing my 2-5 poker during a recent cold card streak.
My first time turning $75 to about $600, I had the main pit guy start a convo with me, which I thought was weird. It was at a shoe table. But now I play mostly CSM and the whole staff seems to busy OK'ing $100 buy ins to notice me, if my play is AP or just lucky.
However, I think everyone should slow their roll and just walk into the VIP room and cash out one time and see what real money looks like. People walking around with sets of trays like Matt Damon in Rounders. I doubt they really care.
On the other hand, it is BS that casinos can back off players just because they win. They sell the dream you can win, but if you do it, you get axed.
Nonetheless, I am green chipping it and dudes next to me are black chipping, playing crazy, winning, and not getting any heat.

The casino should send a limo for black chippers playing CSMs.

Quote: Paigowdan

Why in the world do you think I'd express here what I expressed when on a table?
.

You mean you didn't tell them it's against the
rules?? WHY NOT? You say the casino says it
is, why not tell them?

Go ahead, Dan, tell us why. Because it's NOT
against the rules, Dan, and you know it.

I had this conversation with a dealer, that I should play with the shoe. I responded that the wiz says the CSM is actually higher EV for the player. Dealer says sure sure, "but the CSM seems to give me crazy wins over how the shoe's plays out".
And how does the house know I am AP playing and not just doing some crazy strategy based on intuitive feel of when I should win, or doubling my bet when I win a hand?

Gee, just when I thought Dan was no longer calling counters " cheaters" he wraps that same insult in a different package.

" Legal as it may be, it is a scam on a casino business, similar to pilfering at a Buffet. "

What an idiotic statement.

Now lets assume it's Tuesday afternoon and I casually stroll over to an empty $5 BJ table. And it's 6/5 single deck, no less.
Dan is making a guest appearance as the dealer. I place $5 on each of 3 spots. Dan politely telling me then I must place $10
in each betting circle. I glance at the posted rules on a billboard next to the table and do not see this rules listed there. But I
assume it's perfectly legal so I place $10 in each of 3 circles.
Dan deals me 3 hands face down and turns up an Ace for himself ( Same old Dan ). He asks if I want insurance as I look at my 2 LOW
cards. Before I can answer he tells me that under these conditions I can look at my other 2 hands before deciding on insurance. Oh
my, the other 2 hands both have low cards as well. Under these conditions I have a 6-7% edge. Dan again asks if I want insurance.

If I insurance all 3 hands I may be accused of scamming the casino, pilfering, shoplifting, or plain old cheating. But Dan asked me
twice if I wanted insurance. What to do, what to do ?

I mean i am playing to win. I abide by the rules that are published. If a casino asks me to leave that is their right in most, but not
all states. My money is as valuable to me as the casino's is to them. What to do, what to do ?

Just don't call me a cheater or compare me to someone stealing from the buffet. If you do that, the least you can do after politely 86'ing me is to step outside, so we can further discuss your stealing my good name.

I doubt too many 'tourist' people visiting Vegas know how the games offered are derived(and the subsequent odds(against them)). Are they ignorant, sure they are, but they still play with a dream of winning in mind. Look at the casino's marketing of everything from glitz to fortune...it is your time to win....Give the educated a chance to stick it to the casino every once in a while, they stick it to everyone else-they have no conscience.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I want to chime in here.

First, as others have said, ignore PaiGowDan. He has some issues with reality. He will also troll like crazy and try to turn this into a discussion about whether card counting is against the rules, whether card counters are cheaters, whether they are "clean" players, etc, etc. This is all off-topic nonsense that has already been discussed to death in 100 other threads (I don't understand why the admins tolerate his repeated derailing of threads like this with his off-topic nonsense, but, they are in charge and I'm not).

So, let's get this thread back on-topic. You are looking to do this recreationally, right? You're not looking to go pro. So, I have to say, you can probably ignore what others say about having to be properly bankrolled. Just don't gamble with money that you can't afford to lose, and understand that at any time your edge is very small and you may lose it all. This is not a big deal! Just because you are counting doesn't mean that you can't play "for fun". You may as well have fun with an edge and increase your chances of winning.

However, if you are not properly bankrolled, the same rules apply to you as would apply to someone who is playing slots or roulette. Don't play with money that you can't afford to lose. Don't continue playing if you're not enjoying it (you are there to have fun, so have fun... it's not work). If you win enough money that you would feel bad if you lost it back... stop playing!! The advice that many people are giving you on this thread is very well-intentioned and it would be good advice if you were playing to try to make a living, but you're not. You just want to have a fun vacation and give yourself a better chance than most to win. Just never forget that even if you count and play perfectly, your edge is small and you can very easily lose.

Third, ignore all the advice that people have given you about cover play. Again, this is well-intentioned and is good advice if you're a pro (or maybe even a local), but you're not. First of all, no one is going to back you off for your red chip action. No one cares. There is a big difference between you spreading $10-$100 and someone else spreading $100-$1000, and someone else spreading $500-$5000. The big players have cover requirements that you don't. Second, again, you are not a pro. You're there on vacation. Who the hell cares if you get backed off? If you get backed off you have a good story to tell your buddies back home, or, better yet, to tell the ladies at the bar ("They told me that I was too good at blackjack to keep playing!") and you go play next door. It's Vegas; you can always go next door. You are not going to run out of casinos during your vacation. In fact, even if you don't get backed off (and you almost certainly won't) you should probably go play next door after a while anyway. You don't want to spend your whole vacation in the same place, after all...

To avoid any inconvenience, you may want to simply not play blackjack at the casino where you are staying -- just play at the place next door, or the one next door to that one, or the one across the street, or the one at the other end of the strip. Again, it's Vegas -- one thing that you will not have a shortage of is casinos.

Having said all this -- if your "plan" is to get rich from your small bankroll by counting cards -- forget it. It's not going to happen. If your "plan" is to sit, play, count cards, have a good time, and have a better chance to eke out a small profit than the guy sitting beside you, then, yes, your plan is very realistic. Just remember that it might not happen. You might lose while the guy beside you who can't play (and the guy beside you almost certainly won't be able to play) gets ridiculously lucky and makes tons of money. The count goes up, you put your big bet out there, and the guy beside you (who proudly hit his 15 against the dealer's 6 last hand, and caught a 4, because "if someone doesn't take a hit to save the table the dealer won't bust") gets dealt a blackjack while you get a 16 against the dealer's 10. These things happen. If you can't ignore it (or, better yet, find it funny and enjoy it) then this isn't the game for you. Congratulate the guy for his blackjack, agonize over your 16 for a while, stand (the count is high, after all) and try to maintain some small amount of hope until the dealer flips over his 10 in the hole.

And, one more thing -- you said you live in the UK. Aren't the rules there different than in Vegas (eg, no hole card)? Different rules mean different strategy -- make sure that you learn basic strategy for the game that you'll be playing, or, at the very least, learn it for "standard" Vegas rules.

Finally: this is the most important part. You are there on vacation. HAVE FUN!

Great post, man. Freaking excellent!

" Give the educated a chance to stick it to the casino every once in a while, they stick it to everyone else-they have no conscience. "

It's their business.

Quote: 1BB

The casino should send a limo for black chippers playing CSMs.

I think he was talking about $100 buy-ins, not people betting black-chips. As in, red-chippers who buy in for $100.

But, yeah, the reason that they aren't concerned about you is (1) you are betting small, and (2) you are playing at a CSM which you almost certainly can't beat (unless you're spotting hole cards or something)

Also, a suit starting a conversation with you isn't necessarily heat. It may be. It may also be good customer service. Despite what some in the AP crowd will tell you, suits are not all evil. Lots of them a nice people who are just going to work, same as everyone else. I've had lots of conversations with the pit crew, even while playing unbeatable games for fun.

If you are going to bet green you should buy in for more than $75. First of all, it may not even be enough to play through the first hand. Second, if you run $75 up to $700 it's noticeable (admittedly, barely noticeable, but still). If you run $500 up to $1125 it's commonplace. People double their buy-ins all the time, at all games. If you don't have $500 you shouldn't be playing green. Basically, make reasonable buy-ins. Don't buy in for $10k and start making $25 bets, but don't buy in for $75 either. Something in the $300 - $500 range is reasonable. I prefer to be at the upper end of reasonable -- the last thing that I want to have to do is reach into my pocket to increase my bet if the count just went up.

Hopefully this digression off of the original topic into a lesson in morality continues. Off topic, but very engrossing. My contribution to the sermon we have been treated to:

At roulette, there are two green slots on the wheel. Betting on a single number pays 36:1, but there are 38 slots on the wheel. Odds of winning are what they are, everyone, bettor, house, know the odds and agree to play. Craps odds are based on the chance of rolling a specific number. The payoff on every bet is posted, and it is, by established rule, less than the actual probability of rolling that number. Known by shooter, posted by the house. House agrees to take the action and the player agrees to bet. You cheat at roulette by past-posting a bet after the ball has landed. Illegal. Unethical. Immoral. You cheat at craps by shaving the dice (is that the term?) or in some way jiggering the mechanical aspects of the roll to effect the outcome. Illegal. Unethical. Immoral.

Basic strategy at Blackjack says, for example, to split eights against a six. This is not a published rule. It is a piece of knowledge that you carry around in your head and bring to the table. If you are not knowledgeable about basic strategy, you might split fours against a dealer ace. Again, there is no rule that prohibits this, you simply bring with you the knowledge that this is a bad strategy, or you don't. What you carry around in your brain is not something that you have to check at the door.

How is card counting any different? Various people bring to the table varying skill levels. There is no published rule that you MUST split those eights, no rule that you CANNOT split the fours. But Dan would posit that there is a rule, not published or stated, not even when asked about it, that you cannot keep track of the tens that have come out of a deck of cards? And if there is no PUBLISHED, ESTABLISHED rule posted by the casino to this effect, we, the public, have a moral or ethical obligation to OBSERVE one? Should we not, then, have a similar moral obligation not to double down our eleven against a dealer six, because we know this circumstance, knowledge we brought to the casino with us, just like our ability to count cards, is disadvantageous to our host?

Imagine I am sitting at a blackjack table. The guy to my left is smart enough to know never to hit a sixteen. Never surrender, and never hit a sixteen. Never. The broad to my left never plays the same set of cards the same two times in a row. She can "feel" what the cards are going to be. I can play basic strategy in my sleep. The drunk at first base has been plied with free booze, is betting big and losing big. The individual at third base plays basic strategy and counts cards with a 1-5 spread. The casino has a right to walk Brooks Robinson out the door? He's the only one with a moral or ethical problem?

When the casino backs off all of the other players at that table (except for me of course...) because it has an ETHICAL, MORAL, obligation to do so, because they are either idiots or otherwise impaired, then I will listen to a spokesperson for said casino preach to me about ethics and morality.

I count cards well enough to more or less break even. I never bet money that I cannot afford to lose, or win money that I need to survive. I feel good about the fact that this skill requires practice, concentration, intellectual ability, and puts me, ever so slightly, at an advantage over a massive, mindless, behemoth of an organization that has done everything it can, with loud noises nearby, waitresses bending over in their pretty little uniforms to hand me free drinks, cigarette smoke, etc., etc., etc., to distract me from this endeavor so that they can take my money.

Dan is right, though, that the casino wants to do anything and everything it can to get the card counters out of there, in order to make room for more poor souls like the other folks at my imaginary table.

I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of drunks, impaired, helpless, hopeless, homeless people sitting at blackjack tables, slot machines, and roulette wheels. I have seen many people pull what looks like their last $5 out of their pockets to place a bet at a $5 blackjack table, not having another $5 to split those eights or double that eleven. The casino brings them drinks, comps them what they jokingly call "free play", and is constantly coming up with new and different games to confuse the player into thinking he has a chance to be a "big winner".

Will the casino ever back-off one of them? Never seen it happen.

An employee of one these establishments thinks he can sermonize to ANYONE about the moral or ethical implications of counting cards?

Really?

" Dan is right, though, that the casino wants to do anything and everything it can to get the card counters out of there, in order to make room for more poor souls like the other folks at my imaginary table."

I don't have a problem with that. REALLY Just don't accuse me of anything unethical or immoral.

Quote: rhodyBob

An employee of one these establishments thinks he can sermonize to ANYONE about the moral or ethical implications of counting cards?

Casinos are essentially evil places, as I've said
before. Ethical people like Dan are in denial of
this, and have all kinds of tricky thinking to make
them believe otherwise.

There's nothing unethical about counting cards. It's still gambling. The problem is is that casinos put out a flawed game and get upset when players play properly. And noobs, even if they've read all the books are at a disadvantage at their first live play. To think of all the $ I donated while I learned to play real world poker and BJ. It's cheating in the sense that Bart Simpson called studying cheating.

Quote: rhodyBob

a massive, mindless, behemoth of an organization that has done everything it can, with loud noises nearby, waitresses bending over in their pretty little uniforms to hand me free drinks

If they ever get rid of the waitresses bending over in their pretty little uniforms and giving me free drinks, I'll stop going.

Counting cards while a little drunk (not falling-over-drunk, but not get-behind-the-wheel-sober either) isn't that hard. It's a useful skill to pick up. Drinking several whiskeys is great cover. They have some good booze (and hotter waitresses) in the high limit room, too...

If you are sober enough to walk in a straight line, you should be able to count. They're about the same level of difficulty.

Quote: UTHfan

There's nothing unethical about counting cards.

The problem is is that casinos put out a flawed game and get upset when players play properly.

It's cheating in the sense that Bart Simpson called studying cheating.

Nicely stated, +1

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If they ever get rid of the waitresses bending over in their pretty little uniforms and giving me free drinks, I'll stop going.

Reminder to myself, leave wife at home next trip.

Quote: Alan

Reminder to myself, leave wife at home next trip.

No, leave wife home on every trip.

Quote: EvenBob

You mean you didn't tell them it's against the
rules?? WHY NOT? You say the casino says it
is, why not tell them?

Go ahead, Dan, tell us why. Because it's NOT
against the rules, Dan, and you know it.

Because
1. The player already knew, so there was nothing to tell him, but;
2. it was my job to tell the floor supervisor, and it was his job to flat bet him or back him off.

Quote: UTHfan

I had this conversation with a dealer, that I should play with the shoe. I responded that the wiz says the CSM is actually higher EV for the player. Dealer says sure sure, "but the CSM seems to give me crazy wins over how the shoe's plays out".
And how does the house know I am AP playing and not just doing some crazy strategy based on intuitive feel of when I should win, or doubling my bet when I win a hand?

Because surveillance (or a floorman) checks to see if your bet raises are, - or are not - rising and dropping with the count.
That's how.
And if not, no problem.

deleted

Quote: Buzzard

Gee, just when I thought Dan was no longer calling counters " cheaters" he wraps that same insult in a different package.

" Legal as it may be, it is a scam on a casino business, similar to pilfering at a Buffet. "

What an idiotic statement.

Now lets assume it's Tuesday afternoon and I casually stroll over to an empty $5 BJ table. And it's 6/5 single deck, no less.
Dan is making a guest appearance as the dealer. I place $5 on each of 3 spots. Dan politely telling me then I must place $10
in each betting circle. I glance at the posted rules on a billboard next to the table and do not see this rules listed there. But I
assume it's perfectly legal so I place $10 in each of 3 circles.
Dan deals me 3 hands face down and turns up an Ace for himself ( Same old Dan ). He asks if I want insurance as I look at my 2 LOW
cards. Before I can answer he tells me that under these conditions I can look at my other 2 hands before deciding on insurance. Oh
my, the other 2 hands both have low cards as well. Under these conditions I have a 6-7% edge. Dan again asks if I want insurance.

Because you are allowed to look at 2nd and 3rd hands WHEN the dealer has an ace up, for insurance purposes.
Done it a thousand times without caring or bating an eye: "Insurance anyone?"

Quote: Buzz

If I insurance all 3 hands I may be accused of scamming the casino, pilfering, shoplifting, or plain old cheating. But Dan asked me
twice if I wanted insurance. What to do, what to do ?

If you insured all three hands, the only thing that would happen is:
a) You'd get paid on your insurance bets if I had a Blackjack, and
b) Lose your insurance bets if I did not have a blackjack.
c) Take or push the main bet.
When I dealt pitch games, I told the players to check all hands, to decide which or all hands they wished to insure when I had an Ace up.

Quote: Buzz

I mean i am playing to win. I abide by the rules that are published.

And what the pit boss tells you to do if you wish to play. Don't leave that part out.
Wagers are entered into voluntarily by all parties, so if management tells you to your betting is over, well, your betting is over, unless in Jersey

Quote: Buzz

Just don't call me a cheater or compare me to someone stealing from the buffet. If you do that, the least you can do after politely 86'ing me is to step outside, so we can further discuss your stealing my good name.

Pit bosses may say varying things to a player; the higher the roller, the more flattery in the back off ("Oh, you just too GOOD for us..." down to "Sir/Buddy, you have to leave.")

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yeah, they prefer you to raise it as the count tanks and to leave and quit paying as it goes highly positive.

They can do that too.....
just so as along the bets don't rise or drop in parallel with the count.
THAT's the tip-off, you see.

deleted

Quote: Paigowdan

Because
1. The player already knew, so there was nothing to tell him,

How the heck do you know he knew? You have
no idea, he's probably some newbie who's heard
of counting and is asking innocently. You have no
credibility anymore in this area, Dan. The casino
has no rules about counting and you know it. Why
you keep saying ridiculous things is a mystery.

And it doesn't MATTER if he knew. If indeed it's
against the rules, it's your job to tell him. Not
play some childish game like whispering in the
pit's ear about it. Do you begin to see why some
of think casinos are evil? They play all these stupid
games and expect us to respect them.

Quote: Skellyo

Hey Guys! In July I will be going to Vegas for my 21st birthday!

Have your birth certificate with you... it might be a good "cover" to show it even if not asked.

Are you bringing a young lady along with you? Be sure to "act" receptive to females... that is another deception technique.

Be sure to have a nice vacation, bring extra walking shoes, drink water, etc.

And above all, be sure to tell us how you did.

But stay out of SouthPoint and the Hell Cortez. They WILL back you off for varying your bets.

I how you understand bet ramps and Kelly...

Quote: EvenBob

How the heck do you know he knew? You have
no idea, he's probably some newbie who's heard
of counting and is asking innocently.

Are you serious??!!
Spreading $10 to $80 (thee quarters with a nickel on top), floorman checks with the sky, yup.
smiled, said nothing to him except the weather.

Quote: EvenBob

You have no
credibility anymore in this area, Dan. The casino
has no rules about counting and you know it. Why
you keep saying ridiculous things is a mystery.

Are you serious??!!
The Guidelines go from surveillance, pit shift office, to legal.

Quote: EvenBob

And it doesn't MATTER if he knew. If indeed it's
against the rules, it's your job to tell him.

No. Couldn't care less, I get paid the same.
It's floor's job, I let them do it, and they call the sky.
Last 4 years of dealing I was always on dice or Poker/PGP games anyway.
Most dealers couldn't spot counters, but most floormen could, and all surveillance could.
If a dealer spotted a player with an issue, they'd give a word to the floor before going on break, else the floor and the sky just handled it.

Quote: EvenBob

Do you begin to see why some
of think casinos are evil? They play all these stupid
games and expect us to respect them.

It's some of people walking into a joint who have suspect intentions.
Workers suit up, do their jobs, handle it, and go home and the end of their shift.
Same every place.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Obviously you do care, which is fine, or you wouldn't say anything to anybody.

Not in the pit. Here, it's a discussion board of exchange.
In casino pit work what really matters is:
- how supervisors and dealers treat one another;
- pay
- training
- dispute resolution
- fair advancement
- hours
- etc.

Quote: Paigowdan

No. Couldn't care less, I get paid the same.
It's floor's job, I let them do it, and they call the sky.
.

But they DON'T DO IT, Dan, that's my point.
You can ask any suit in the pit if counting
cards is allowed and every one of them will
say it is. Try it. I no longer play BJ so I've
done it a dozen times and they always say
it's allowed. There are no rules against,
secret or otherwise, you just wish there were.

I'll be in Vegas again in Feb and I'll meet you
and we'll go to a few casinos and I'll bet you
every time we ask, we'll be told it's OK. Want
to make that bet?

deleted

deleted

Quote: EvenBob

I'll be in Vegas again in Feb and I'll meet you
and we'll go to a few casinos and I'll bet you
every time we ask, we'll be told it's OK. Want
to make that bet?

I'll bet that floormen/shift managers will generally say "counting??!! No such thing, of course!!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You said that you couldn't care less. If that were true and you suspected a counter at your table, you would not say a word to anyone, including your supervisors.

I was once chewed out by a shift manager when a big flat-betting NON-counter won a bunch of hands, for not notifying floor when "someone was running the table on ya." Go figure.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The fact that you said you would tell a supervisor tells us that you do care.

If a dealer knows there's an issue of any AP sort, he is supposed to alert a floorman, - as part of his job.
Many dealers are oblivious, some are not.

I know a number of dealers, floor men and supervisors that count at other properties during their own time. How can it be that such an honerable industry would employ such 'scammers'? :-)

edited

deleted

deleted

Quote: kewlj

I know a number of dealers, floor men and supervisors that count at other properties during their own time. How can it be that such an honerable industry would employ such 'scammers'? :-)

I know some too. Knew a floormen who pinched and cap bets very well.
There are priests who molested children.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The floor should have been watching the big bettor closer.

Yes.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Doing you duties is one thing, letting it become some kind of personal vendetta is another.

I agree. Dealers should suit up, show up, do their jobs, be friendly, all that stuff, no vendettas or feuds, what have you. Live and let live. But dealers are supposed to alert floor on AP player issues, and some do. Others are clueless.

Quote: Paigowdan

I know some too. Knew a floormen who pinched and cap bets very well.
There are priests who molested children.

Talk about a non-sequitur....

Quote: Paigowdan

I know some [floormen who count] too. Knew a floormen who pinched and cap bets very well.
There are priests who molested children.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Talk about a non-sequitur....

Not really. You see, the point here is that NO occupation defines morality or is moral, from gaming to religion to law and medicine. Bad apples abound in every discipline.