Best count system and strategy for these rules?

My question is guving the following rules, what would be optimum strategy for beating this particular game and which count would be best, no matter how difficult? Also, can someone explain using the index chart vs. strategy on this game?

8 deck blackjack
Penetration unknown
Double Down on any first two cards
Split pairs three times up to four hands
Split Aces one time
Draw one card on each split Ace
Double Down after a split
3 to 2 blackjack.

The first step is to learn basic strategy so that you make zero mistakes in a live casino. You'd be surprised how many players say they know it, look like they know it but make costly mistakes. You didn't say if the game was S17 or H17 or if surrender was offered. There are some strategy differences that depend on how a soft 17 is treated by the dealer.

The strongest count, which is what I think you mean by best, won't help you if you make mistakes. The best count is one that you can perform with very little mistakes, preferably none at all. Start with a level one count, balanced or unbalanced.

The index chart covers deviations to basic strategy based on the count. I know you want to learn everything today, as most of us did, but don't get ahead of yourself. Take it slow and easy beginning with basic strategy.

I have been studying blackjack 8 deck strategy and I'm not going to go bet big until I have it down packed. It's a S17 game and from what I've heard the deck penetration is around 65%. I'm not sure if surrender is offered, it doesn't say on their website. I'm thinking of using The KO Rookie system and bet spread of 1-5 units to start off with until I feel more comfortable. There is a double deck game but the limit is 25$ and I don't want to start off that high.

Quote: Thewhitekid

I have been studying blackjack 8 deck strategy and I'm not going to go bet big until I have it down packed. It's a S17 game and from what I've heard the deck penetration is around 65%. I'm not sure if surrender is offered, it doesn't say on their website. I'm thinking of using The KO Rookie system and bet spread of 1-5 units to start off with until I feel more comfortable. There is a double deck game but the limit is 25$ and I don't want to start off that high.

Find another hobby. That game is terrible, and your approach is worse.

Quote: Thewhitekid

from what I've heard the deck penetration is around 65%.

This is a problem. Wong doesn't even estimate win rates for under 80% penetration. Walker estimates that 65% penetration gives up more than half the win rate in S21 compared to 80% .

There's a quote in one of the books that says you should prefer to play the worst rules with the best penetration rather than the other way around.

If you want to play, have fun, but don't kid yourself into thinking you have an actual edge. I would estimate break-even, at best.

How is the game terrible, it has some of the most liberal rules of any casino. I know the double deck is 1.7 deck penetration, but the table limit is higher than I'm comfortable with for now. The 8 deck has the same rules, with the exception of deck penetration.

And where is that quote coming from? Cuz everything I've read says it could be a single deck game, but if the rules are shitty it doesn't pay. Like games that pay 6 to 5 Blackjack.

Anyway, I'm not getting my question answered. Given the game I mentioned, and btw it does have early surrender, what would be the best count method for 8 deck? Is the KO a good choice? Could I use the KO when I'm switching over to their double deck, strategy wise, only a couple of plays change.

Thanks. From what I understand, if I use a KO count, I would only need to know the basic strategy variations? I could avoid learning index chart deviations and keeping track of true count using an unbalanced system, correct?

KO is fine for 6-8deck. I still use Hi Lo for 6D games and going to harder level counting system isn't worth the expected returns. If moving to DD or SD, then yeah start looking at level 2+ systems. Also, imo 65% pen with the rules you stated above is pretty meh. The DD at your casino uses 1.7 deck pen with the same S17 rules? That is very beatable and I would immediately move to the DD games once my bankroll allows.

If you are just starting, then stick with the KO and practice. Using KO with 1-5 spread on a $15 8D 65% pen game which doesn't even allow RSA won't make you much money, if at all. The grind might even turn you off from becoming an AP. I wouldn't even look at that game twice, since there are many 6D games in the U.S. with at least a 70-75% pen+.

There are so many things to keep note of while sitting at a game, including basic, indicies, the running count, true count and ace count.

I would use Hi/Lo with a basic Ace side count but KNOW basic and indicies off the top of your head.

Then I would learn all about bet spreads, the kelly criterion, understand SD and Variance VERY well.

Then I would learn how to camouflage my bets and my play.

Then I would practice at home or with friends for about 2 years.

Then I would unleash myself on an unsuspecting casino..............

Pretty simple really :D

Quote: Thewhitekid

Thanks. From what I understand, if I use a KO count, I would only need to know the basic strategy variations? I could avoid learning index chart deviations and keeping track of true count using an unbalanced system, correct?

Don't take anyone's word on penetration. Go to the casino and see for yourself. It may be dealer dependent. If there's nothing better than 65% I would not play. Check the double deck game because you may want to save up and play it if the rules and pen are good.

Go to Qfit.com and click on card counting strategies. It's all there with a short explanation on each one. I think you will find it informative and interesting. Stay with a level 1 count for now.

Quote: Tomspur

There are so many things to keep note of while sitting at a game, including basic, indicies, the running count, true count and ace count.

I would use Hi/Lo with a basic Ace side count but KNOW basic and indicies off the top of your head.

Then I would learn all about bet spreads, the kelly criterion, understand SD and Variance VERY well.

Then I would learn how to camouflage my bets and my play.

Then I would practice at home or with friends for about 2 years.

Then I would unleash myself on an unsuspecting casino..............

Pretty simple really :D

Ace side count with Hi-Lo? I assume that you are referring to the double deck game, not the eight deck.

Thanks for all of the info. I will sit down at the table myself and see what the penetration is. Just going to practice and study then go straight for the double deck game

Quote: 1BB

Ace side count with Hi-Lo? I assume that you are referring to the double deck game, not the eight deck.

I thought we were talking about the DD game?

Anyway, yes DD, if you were looking at 6 to 8 decks without going too crazy with hard systems, I would stick with KO even though, as an unbalanced count it can sometimes be confusing., depending on your skill level.

I like Zen myself and will use that more often then not, perhaps only because I'm used to it now, but for a level 1 count it is very simple and still powerful enough to give ME results.

I don't think there is one particular count that we can help you with here. You will have to find out what you can easily remember and manipulate in your favor.

Perhaps you can tag the cards, do EOR and come up with your own CC system......

Please do let us know :)

I've always been a math whiz, so I'm not scared to learn a more complicated system, if it's more powerful. I just liked the idea of the KO system, because of the fact I wouldn't have to keep track of the true count and learn index strategy. For now I will just stick to getting better at basic strategy and strategy variation when the count is high. When it becomes second nature for me and I can count down a deck of cards in 20 seconds or less using KO, then I'll decide if it's worth learning a more complicated system for me. If I am going to work on a bigger bank roll so I can justify going to a 25$ table, then I definitely want to know that I'm using the best system there is in place. I guess that's more or less what I'm trying to figure out. If the slight edge a level 2 or 3 has over the KO system is worth it for me.

Quote: Tomspur

I thought we were talking about the DD game?

Anyway, yes DD, if you were looking at 6 to 8 decks without going too crazy with hard systems, I would stick with KO even though, as an unbalanced count it can sometimes be confusing., depending on your skill level.

I like Zen myself and will use that more often then not, perhaps only because I'm used to it now, but for a level 1 count it is very simple and still powerful enough to give ME results.

I don't think there is one particular count that we can help you with here. You will have to find out what you can easily remember and manipulate in your favor.

Perhaps you can tag the cards, do EOR and come up with your own CC system......

Please do let us know :)

Both Zen counts are level 2.

Quote: 1BB

Both Zen counts are level 2.

That's funny, my fault again. I was commenting on the K-O and got it confused with the Zen.

I only know of one Zen count with the following tags:

-1,1,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,-2

What is the other one and what is it's tags? (If you don't mind me asking).

If you don't want to discuss here you can PM me?

Thanks

Quote: Tomspur

That's funny, my fault again. I was commenting on the K-O and got it confused with the Zen.

I only know of one Zen count with the following tags:

-1,1,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,-2

What is the other one and what is it's tags? (If you don't mind me asking).

If you don't want to discuss here you can PM me?

Thanks

That's what I have used for quite some time. I briefly went back to Hi-Lo as I was training a couple of guys. One is very serious and has graduated to Zen, the other is a goof off who chases the ladies.

The other Zen is unbalanced and is sometimes referred to as UBZ or UBZ2 and is often the next step up from KO. Tags are -1,1,2,2,2,2,1,0,0,-2.

Quote: 1BB

That's what I have used for quite some time. I briefly went back to Hi-Lo as I was training a couple of guys. One is very serious and has graduated to Zen, the other is a goof off who chases the ladies.

The other Zen is unbalanced and is sometimes referred to as UBZ or UBZ2 and is often the next step up from KO. Tags are -1,1,2,2,2,2,1,0,0,-2.

So pretty similar but unbalanced. Do you know what count you start at? Is it all deck dependent like other unbalanced counts?

OK here's the deal with penetration. On a single deck game (with decent rules), 65% penetration would be great. On a double deck game, 65% pen would be pretty good, again assuming decent rules. BUT, with shoe games, both 6 and 8 deck, 65% sucks.

In a shoe game, you need 75% penetration, minimum, to be playable or a very average game. Most players look for better than 75%. Anything less than 75%, is bad. The reason behind this is the frequency of the hands played at different advantages. In single and double deck, you will encounter player advantage situations much more frequently. In 6 and 8 deck games,you will encounter significant player advantage much less often, and very rarely in the first part of the shoe. Any advantagous hands really worth anything, will occur late in the shoe, so the deeper the penetration the more of these significant advantageous hands will occur.

In 6 and 8 deck games, penetration trumps everything. Just a slight change in penetration can dramatically change the profitability of a game and the win rate expectation.

Quote: Tomspur

So pretty similar but unbalanced. Do you know what count you start at? Is it all deck dependent like other unbalanced counts?

How many decks? I believe it's -32 for 8 decks, -24 for six decks and -8 for two decks. I'm going to stop right here because I have never used an unbalanced count and I am far from an expert on them.

Instead I'll refer you to the archives of BlackJackinfo.com. UBZ is discussed in great depth there by some very knowledgeable players. It's a great read and you'll want to come back to it again and again.