Help me with counting shoes vs. pitch

Go easy on me please - I'm still fairly a newbie...

I don't know if this is normal or not, but I much prefer counting at pitch games rather than shoe games. In a pitch game, I can't see anyone else's hand, and if someone busts, it's just one hand at a time, and I count those up quickly. Then I can make my decision on my hand, then all the other hands are revealed one at a time, and I can simply count those as they get revealed. I almost never lose count in pitch games, and I can count up a hand pretty quickly.

On shoe games, on the other hand, I never quite know when to count. Even though the cards are visible for longer, the action goes a lot faster, so I get confused more quickly. Should I be counting every card as they come out? Should I be counting each player at a time? If I try to count every player, the action usually gets to me so quickly that I can't quite keep it all together. I know it's less optimal to count at the end of the hand than before the dealer reveals his cards, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I can do to keep an accurate running count.

Anyone have any pointers or how I can practice and improve? Thanks so much!

Cancellation. I wait until all the cards are dealt then scan the table to cancel pairs such as 10,4 etc. From there just count what's left. That's me. I think most people start when the first player gets his second card. Either way, it becomes second nature like breathing.
With time and practice it can be done while dealing with all the distractions in a live casino such as conversing with the dealer, pit, waitress and other players.

Quote: malgorium

Go easy on me please - I'm still fairly a newbie...

I don't know if this is normal or not, but I much prefer counting at pitch games rather than shoe games. In a pitch game, I can't see anyone else's hand, and if someone busts, it's just one hand at a time, and I count those up quickly. Then I can make my decision on my hand, then all the other hands are revealed one at a time, and I can simply count those as they get revealed. I almost never lose count in pitch games, and I can count up a hand pretty quickly.

On shoe games, on the other hand, I never quite know when to count. Even though the cards are visible for longer, the action goes a lot faster, so I get confused more quickly. Should I be counting every card as they come out? Should I be counting each player at a time? If I try to count every player, the action usually gets to me so quickly that I can't quite keep it all together. I know it's less optimal to count at the end of the hand than before the dealer reveals his cards, but I'm not sure if there's anything else I can do to keep an accurate running count.

Anyone have any pointers or how I can practice and improve? Thanks so much!

I see you asked this on blackjacktheforum.com and told to spend hundreds of dollars on the site's blackjack software. That's so wrong! To answer your question on card counting at blackjack shoe games, start counting cards when the second card is dealt to the first base player. I made this video explaining how to do this and table hop (or Wong) at 6 deck blackjack, enjoy! No charge!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMXQUAxSB5o

Quote: JSTAT

I see you asked this on blackjacktheforum.com and told to spend hundreds of dollars on the site's blackjack software. That's so wrong! To answer your question on card counting at blackjack shoe games, start counting cards when the second card is dealt to the first base player. I made this video explaining how to do this and table hop (or Wong) at 6 deck blackjack, enjoy! No charge!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMXQUAxSB5o

Very generous advice, JSTAT; very classy of you to help him and steer him away from some bogus expense.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Very generous advice, JSTAT; very classy of you to help him and steer him away from some bogus expense.

Are you familiar with what you are calling bogus? The site and the software come from one of the most highly respected men in the business, respected by players and peers alike. JSTAT didn't call it bogus and I don't believe he would. He just said it was for sale. There is also a lot of information available for free. Ask the Wizard if it's bogus.

Definitely NOT bogus.

Quote: KeyserSoze

Definitely NOT bogus.

Someone suggested the software would cost hundreds of dollars, which I think is what prompted babs to describe it as a bogus expense. That's a lot of money for a red chip player, regardless of software quality.

But I see a cost of only $90 for the highly regarded Casino Verite, so it may be a good choice for the OP.

deleted

1BB,

I don't know whose it was, and it may well have been a poor choice of words to call it "bogus". My apologies to the (so far) anonymous author. My take on the OP's posting was that he had asked for advice and someone had tried to sell him an expensive system instead. I don't follow the other blackjack forum.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but knowing what I know now, I would pay 2x for Norm's software. It's that good.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I bought a shoe, 8 decks of cards and proceeded to deal hands. Sure it's slower than software, but works just the same.

Dealing seconds doesn't count. :-)

deleted

On a shoe game when the first seat gets their second card start counting. Do the dealers card last. Like stated, practice cancellation. Take a deck, throw out 2 cards at a time and practice cancelling. Then throw out 3 cards at a time and practice. It's a lot easier to learn at home than during live fire.

The first thing I did was just start flipping over cards and keep a running count. Once you're bored with that and can count down the entire deck, then you should start counting in a game. It's been a long time since I had to learn how to count. I believe I waited until the hand was over and then counted. To free up memory space and lower stress and confusion while learning when you get a count after a hand use your chips to hold the count. 1 chip per point. Don't forget to learn the true count at some point otherwise you'll be over betting into a positive 6 with the true count is +2.

When I started gambling, I even used my chips to keep count in the casino. That first run is kind of threatening. You want to keep a good count, play basic strategy and not get busted. I started with an opening bet of 100 and then raised or lowered my bets based on the count by adding or subtracting 25 from the previous bet. Once the count hit minus 3, I had to use my fingers trying not to mumble out loud "minus 7"! My bets changed just about every hand. It was so obvious. But I won 12 days in a row over 4 months and pocketed 2-3K everyday. When I took my first loss of 1750 in May 1994, which I should have won, life got busy and didn't return to Vegas until 2011. I played a few times in Illinois and won and lost managing a small overall win.

You'll need months of practice even ounce you get past using chips to keep the count. You want to learn to play the game without thinking about what the right basic strategy play is. Play the game without fear will come later. You want to practice until you win most of the time playing in the same levels you think you will in the casino. When I say win most of the time, I don't mean hand by hand or deck by deck, I mean you play until you're ahead and then stop. With 6 decks I used to play until I was up 1000 and then stop. With 2 decks I play until I'm up 150-350, occasionally 600+ if I happen to bet 1/2 my winnings and win a decent split, double of BJ.

Seriously, a player should be able to play until they're up a decent amount 9-10 with 6 decks, and 150 with 2 decks 5 out of 6 times. I don't know why I insist on limits. I just do. Even more after a 23 day winning streak in live play. Those 4 and 5 chip wins add up to 1000's real quick. Don't think like 125 bucks isn't enough when you just put 1000 on the line. A 12.5% return on any investment over 20 minutes is solid.

You'll run into tough shoes and decks with high counts where the dealer keeps popping winners, or where you keep getting hard hands that bust. I have never not run into one or two, but I've gone months without seeing one.

Learning the game, strategy, and counting before you start playing for real money is the right thing to do. I also agree that using chips and cards is better than using any random number generator regardless of the publisher. Cards and chips allow for the physical part of the game and I think it adds to the success later on.

Even though all the winning and losing during practice is pointless when you sit at a real money game, the practice is more or less about learning different points like counting, money management and basic strategy which will matter the next time you play for money.

Couldn't just post a one sentence post. This is how I learned and I practiced for over 18 months before I ever played for money. The time was used to save $1000.00 and pay for the trip.

Best of luck. You'll be a well prepared player when the time comes.

Wow, thanks for much for all the advice, especially wroberson and JSTAT - The vid is very helpful!

I don't really have trouble counting any 1 hand quickly - what I do have trouble with is just the overall pace of the shoe game vs. the pitch game, not to mention the slightly harder TC calculations since it's a bit more difficult to estimate how many decks are left in 6-deck vs. 2-deck. But like anything else, I suppose this is just going to take time put in practicing. I better get to it!

Players sort of have a clock but have time to think, add up numbers and ask questions. Don't feel rushed. The faster you can do these things at the kitchen table the more time you'll have to act.

I find the pace the dealers deal and remove cards to be slow, but I'm used to speed play at home.
I'm sure 80% of the cards are played in an average speed.
EDIT: You pretty much want to count the bust hands and blackjacks 1st.
Most of the time, when a player busts, the dealer takes the chips 1st and then removes the cards.
When the hand is over, the deals pays the winners and sweeps up the cards.

There are short cuts to count the number of decks player. Each hand will get a minimum of 2 cards.

1 players + dealer 12 hands per deck
2 players + dealer 8 hands per deck
3 players + dealer 6 hands per deck
4 players + dealer 5 hands per deck
Full table + dealer 3 hand per deck