Entry level BJ on a budget

Hey folks,

First, I'm a new member -- glad to be here; thanks for having me.

I did not discover a love for BJ until a couple of weeks ago after my second trip to Vegas during which I, once again, lost more than I made. I have since committed basic strategy to memory, though I'm working on improving my speed, and I've also started learning Hi/Low though it will obviously be many hours before this is even remotely useful in a live game. A couple of questions, and I apologize if these are already comprehensively covered elsewhere -- I didn't have much luck with the search function.

1) I like the idea of turning odds in the player's favor, but for the time invested, would it be more worthwhile to just start studying up on Poker which doesn't attract the wrath of casinos right out the gates? Not to mention the odds are predicated entirely on the skill level of the player. Please correct me if my understanding here is incorrect.

2) Unfortunately, I'm a full-time student with a 60+ hours/week schedule required of me. I won't have a bank roll of four figures or higher for several years, but I do enjoy playing the game immensely. Vegas is, in fact, turning into a hot spot getaway for my fiance and me. This means, however, that we are usually staying on the strip where we can eat and catch shows and do other things, which is, from what I've gathered, not the best place to find favorable odds. If anyone has some advice on a good place to stay, with relatively low minimums (morning and afternoon is fine), where we can also build some comp while we're just enjoying the game (and probably not making much $$$ on our tight budget), that would be the golden ticket.

3) Any other general guidance for someone that loves the game, but doesn't have the money to play it seriously would be much appreciated. We have been playing the MyVEGAS games on facebook to try to build comp through MGM, but even a beginner like me can tell that whoever wrote the code for BJ didn't even bother to disguise that the dealer is cheating. I've looked at a couple of the online casinos but probably won't be ready actually pull out my credit card until my game play is almost flawless.

Much obliged for the help gang; hoping to become a regular here. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Quote: hawkunit

I like the idea of turning odds in the player's favor

Who does not like the idea of "free money". So this statement can only be answered like "there is no free lunch". If you see BJ as a reasonable easy source of income, you are some decades late. Not saying you can't profit from BJ, but you need to invest much more time to it.

The odds of poker are not just determined by your skills alone. They are also determined of the skills of your opponents, the houses rake, your bankroll and your money management.

Quote:

Any other general guidance for someone that loves the game, but doesn't have the money to play it seriously would be much appreciated.

Don't overrush it.

Sorry, if you are going to attempt blackjack with a bankroll of less than $1000, and you didn't say how much less, you should probably flat bet $2 a hand and forget about comps.

You don't have to play where you stay and it's easy to get around town even without a car. Click on home at the top of this page then go to Las Vegas Blackjack Survey on the upper right. You'll see where the lowest limits are. Best of luck to you.

Quote: hawkunit

3) We have been playing the MyVEGAS games on facebook to try to build comp through MGM, but even a beginner like me can tell that whoever wrote the code for BJ didn't even bother to disguise that the dealer is cheating.

I am completely lost here. Why do you think the MyVegas Blackjack game is not fair? I have spent several hours playing and it appears fair to me.

Quote: bigfoot66

I am completely lost here. Why do you think the MyVegas Blackjack game is not fair? I have spent several hours playing and it appears fair to me.

Maybe he means because it's a CSM or like structure? Either way it is the best way to earn levels/points.

Try this link: WOV BJ Survey but keep in mind games change all the time. I'm a newbie counter but the best advice I found was to cancel out pairs so you aren't adding and subtracting too many numbers. A3 can be canceled, and 46T would equal +1, etc. I don't have much of an edge since I don't know too much about deck approximation for true counts and bet sizing but it is a thrill to play when you've got a (small) edge over the casino in a table game.

Great advice -- yeah, that's what I was saying -- I'm going to quit my professional school for which I labored the last two years so I can make BJ my primary source of income. Next time, though, feel free to be a little more condescending when you answer one of my questions.

Always a joy to see optimistic newbies received by dickheads in whatever field they are entering.

Quote: hawkunit

Great advice -- yeah, that's what I was saying -- I'm going to quit my professional school for which I labored the last two years so I can make BJ my primary source of income. Next time, though, feel free to be a little more condescending when you answer one of my questions.

Always a joy to see optimistic newbies received by dickheads in whatever field they are entering.

Wow, are you thin skinned or what. I read all
the responses and saw nobody being rude to
you. Grow up, dude..

Quote: EvenBob

Wow, are you thin skinned or what. I read all
the responses and saw nobody being rude to
you. Grow up, dude..

+1

Quote: hawkunit

Hey folks,

First, I'm a new member -- glad to be here; thanks for having me.

I did not discover a love for BJ until a couple of weeks ago after my second trip to Vegas during which I, once again, lost more than I made. I have since committed basic strategy to memory, though I'm working on improving my speed, and I've also started learning Hi/Low though it will obviously be many hours before this is even remotely useful in a live game. A couple of questions, and I apologize if these are already comprehensively covered elsewhere -- I didn't have much luck with the search function.

1) I like the idea of turning odds in the player's favor, but for the time invested, would it be more worthwhile to just start studying up on Poker which doesn't attract the wrath of casinos right out the gates? Not to mention the odds are predicated entirely on the skill level of the player. Please correct me if my understanding here is incorrect.

2) Unfortunately, I'm a full-time student with a 60+ hours/week schedule required of me. I won't have a bank roll of four figures or higher for several years, but I do enjoy playing the game immensely. Vegas is, in fact, turning into a hot spot getaway for my fiance and me. This means, however, that we are usually staying on the strip where we can eat and catch shows and do other things, which is, from what I've gathered, not the best place to find favorable odds. If anyone has some advice on a good place to stay, with relatively low minimums (morning and afternoon is fine), where we can also build some comp while we're just enjoying the game (and probably not making much $$$ on our tight budget), that would be the golden ticket.

3) Any other general guidance for someone that loves the game, but doesn't have the money to play it seriously would be much appreciated. We have been playing the MyVEGAS games on facebook to try to build comp through MGM, but even a beginner like me can tell that whoever wrote the code for BJ didn't even bother to disguise that the dealer is cheating. I've looked at a couple of the online casinos but probably won't be ready actually pull out my credit card until my game play is almost flawless.

Much obliged for the help gang; hoping to become a regular here. Thanks in advance for your responses.

With what is going on in the poker world today, if I were your age it would be no-limit holdem that I would pursue. I'm speaking about the tournaments. There are lots of good books, online courses, etc. And nothing beats experience. So I wouldn't look to get there overnight. 95% of the players wash out. But that wouldn't deter me. I would take my shot anyway. World class no-limit holdem is where the real money is today.

Play $5 or $10 3:2 blackjack with whatever rules you can get, just to practice basic strategy and do a simple count like A-5 to get used to casino speed. Keep a strategy card handy just for reinforcement on those tricky hands. You might not get an edge, but you'll have fun and probably won't lose too much. Once you've mastered that, use a better count.

You're not going to get comps much of anywhere unless you're playing $25 or higher, which would increase your risk of losing your whole bankroll to an unacceptable level. Just practice your skills and have fun, and accept that you're probably not going to be playing a winning game for quite a while, until you've upped your bankroll/income from your normal job. You'll still do better than 99% of people gambling in LV, and maybe you'll get some free buffets if the pit boss gets tired of looking at you.

Quote: Llew

Play $5 or $10 3:2 blackjack with whatever rules you can get, just to practice basic strategy and do a simple count like A-5 to get used to casino speed. Keep a strategy card handy just for reinforcement on those tricky hands. You might not get an edge, but you'll have fun and probably won't lose too much. Once you've mastered that, use a better count.

You're not going to get comps much of anywhere unless you're playing $25 or higher, which would increase your risk of losing your whole bankroll to an unacceptable level. Just practice your skills and have fun, and accept that you're probably not going to be playing a winning game for quite a while, until you've upped your bankroll/income from your normal job. You'll still do better than 99% of people gambling in LV, and maybe you'll get some free buffets if the pit boss gets tired of looking at you.

Hawk unit, I think this is pretty good advice for your situation, with one exception, which I will address in a moment. I am not 'picking on the newbie' , and for what it is worth, you are being a little thin skinned. I didn't see anything that I perceived as picking on you. Stick around and read when these guys really get going. Lol

Turning the tables, so to speak and playing with an advantage is not some parlor trick that can be learned in a few minutes. I am not saying it is rocket science, but it does require time and effort to acquire the knowledge necessary and then a good deal of practice. With a 60 hour week work/study schedule it sounds like your hands are pretty full. In addition, flipping that advantage is mostly about betting more money during those very few times that you do have a tiny advantage. Several times more than your average or small bet, and this requires an adequate bankroll and $1000 is not adequate.

But if you visit casinos regularly as you indicate, you can begin the process by at least getting close to a break even game. I would recommend learning a simple count like hi-lo or k-o, not A-5. A-5 is too simple is too weak. I'd just betting $5 and betting $10 and $15 when you have an advantage. This along with exiting or sitting out some of the real negative counts will get you close to break even, assuming bj pays 3-2. Do NOT play 6-5 blackjack.

Sorry...duplicate post

Quote: hawkunit

Great advice -- yeah, that's what I was saying -- I'm going to quit my professional school for which I labored the last two years so I can make BJ my primary source of income. Next time, though, feel free to be a little more condescending when you answer one of my questions.

Always a joy to see optimistic newbies received by dickheads in whatever field they are entering.

Lol

Quote: hawkunit

Great advice -- yeah, that's what I was saying -- I'm going to quit my professional school for which I labored the last two years so I can make BJ my primary source of income. Next time, though, feel free to be a little more condescending when you answer one of my questions.

Always a joy to see optimistic newbies received by dickheads in whatever field they are entering.

Ouch! What was it that upset you, hawkunit?

Okay, you really have two questions.
One related to lower stakes Blackjack and one related to relatively low stakes poker.

Treasure Island (or TI) as its now known actually pays you a pretty good rate to play poker plus you earn the usual modest comps while doing it. You should certainly visit the Venetian to experience one of the top notch poker rooms there is.

Blackjack... I think everyone will tell you.... concentrate on your courses and do your gambling later.
If that is not going to happen, then concentrate on any low limit but good rules BJ game./

You and your girl like the strip. The time to go "slumming" and get better deals is AFTER she has married you. Before, stay on the strip and impress her with the luxury. Its "generally" best to "play where you stay" (for comp reasons) but its not an ironclad rule and you should just play where the rules are best for you, but avoid lengthy trips.

If you were playing slots, I'd say play where the edge is lowest which would be Boulder Strip, then Downtown and then North Las Vegas, but for BJ just stick to nearby games.

Quote: hawkunit

Always a joy to see optimistic newbies received by dickheads in whatever field they are entering.

I'm going to let that one go on a one-time basis, but please refrain from comments such as this in the future. I would construe a comment such as this as a violation of the rule against, "No personal insults," even though it was not directed at a specific Member, the intent, obviously, is to insult some members of this forum.

In the meantime, I should request that you take a moment and peruse the Forum Rules, for which there is a separate sub-category.

Quote: kewlj

I would recommend learning a simple count like hi-lo or k-o, not A-5. A-5 is too simple is too weak.

I've been looking into learning counting lately too and was wondering about any recommended references online for dealing with single or double deck games (beyond the Hi-Lo intro on WoO) or anything online to practice counting in a "live" game. (It's hard enough to find non-CSM practice BJ...)

Any suggestions?

Quote: Venthus

I've been looking into learning counting lately too and was wondering about any recommended references online for dealing with single or double deck games (beyond the Hi-Lo intro on WoO) or anything online to practice counting in a "live" game. (It's hard enough to find non-CSM practice BJ...)

Any suggestions?

I like casino verite software because it allows you to go through a timed counting session. I set it to very fast and tried to keep up while having multiple real life-like hands on a table. I used odd numbers so it wasn't just canceling pairs, and doing this very fast will let you keep up quicker. Most dealers don't deal super fast so it'll be a cakewalk after the practice. It kinda reminds me of learning speed reading. Go as fast as possible (as much as you can count while struggling so you don't get discouraged) on single deck, then bump up to multiple decks after you feel confident.

As someone who recently graduated to the level of having a sufficient bankroll, I recommend that you feel comfortable blowing your bankroll. It's going to happen regularly without a steady paycheck whether you like it or not.

Quote: Mission146

I'm going to let that one go on a one-time basis, but please refrain from comments such as this in the future. I would construe a comment such as this as a violation of the rule against, "No personal insults," even though it was not directed at a specific Member, the intent, obviously, is to insult some members of this forum.

In the meantime, I should request that you take a moment and peruse the Forum Rules, for which there is a separate sub-category.

Personally, I think you are being too generous to the "newb" here. No one was offensive enough to deserve to be called a "dickhead" by the OP. All posts previous to his were non-offensive, truthful, and useful to his cause. Guess what OP, the truth isn't always sugarcoated. This includes any statements toward myVegas blackjack, as CrystalMath (who is one of the most reliable math sources on this forum) has previously stated that the myVegas blackjack game is a random 6-deck game S17, DOA, no resplitting, and shuffled after every hand (0.457% house edge). In my experience, I find this to be generally true. Personally, I think I am up on the myVegas game, fwiw. Am I disappointed being up on play-money BJ vs. real-money BJ? Hell yes.

Edit: I also feel like OP is lucky to get knowledgeable responses after his initial response.

I'm used to playing with a small bankroll and actually winning. You have a few options. This is how I started a winning streak that lasted 23 days. I compared it to trying to cross a busy intersection.

1. Hit and Run: Scout the tables for one that is about to or is shuffling the card that has a few open chairs. Watch the game play. When you think the deck is favorable take a seat.

2. When a deck is favorable, check to see how many non 10 value cards have been dealt in a row after that hand is over. This is a grey area as there's no way to tell if the next card or the second card or the 3rd card, etc. will be a ten. But I have been able to get lucky many times.

3. Enjoy your trip to Vegas. Get a rental card, (preferably and Ace), I meant rental car, and see the desert. 50 bucks in gas per day is a lot cheaper than losing more at the tables. Relax. At some point before you leave, go find a table with a few open chairs. Watch the cards. If the deck is favorable.

A. Bet what ever you are willing to lose in one hand. Go catch the plane.
B. Bet less than 1/2 of what you are willing to lose in one hand. If you lose the hand and the deck is still favorable, bet what ever amount you are willing to lose or go catch the plane. If you win. Go catch the plane

4. This is for a home casino that's 5 dollars in gas away round trip. Win 50 bucks and go home. Go back in a day or two and do it again. These tiny wins will add up to 1000's. Be patient.

Have a great day!

William

Bankroll management is a pretty big thing... The other day, I jokingly recommended to a friend that they should only play with one-third of their bankroll... and dedicate the next third to winning the first third back. And the last third is for when you just need that "little" extra to double on the hand that'll recover your recovery money.

There was a famous saying in 19th century America "go west young man." Now it's the 21st century and the best advice I can give you young guys is "go to no-limit Texas Holdem young man."

Quote: tringlomane

Personally, I think you are being too generous to the "newb" here. No one was offensive enough to deserve to be called a "dickhead" by the OP. All posts previous to his were non-offensive, truthful, and useful to his cause. Guess what OP, the truth isn't always sugarcoated. This includes any statements toward myVegas blackjack, as CrystalMath (who is one of the most reliable math sources on this forum) has previously stated that the myVegas blackjack game is a random 6-deck game S17, DOA, no resplitting, and shuffled after every hand (0.457% house edge). In my experience, I find this to be generally true. Personally, I think I am up on the myVegas game, fwiw. Am I disappointed being up on play-money BJ vs. real-money BJ? Hell yes.

Edit: I also feel like OP is lucky to get knowledgeable responses after his initial response.

I generally agree with that, but with the newcomers, I tend to like to give an individual one chance to get himself in line with the gentlemanly and ladylike behavior expected by the Forum.

This is my first post, but I have been reading the forums for the long time. I thought I'd chime in here, even though you had a knee-jerk reaction to some newbie forum hazing. A thick skin is recommended online, and offline for that matter.

Anyways, here goes:

1) My understanding is it's best to watch your chip spread, if you are betting with an advantage on a $5-10 game, spread 1-5 units and you shouldn't get much heat.

2) I have quite a bit of table time playing strictly basic strategy blackjack. My recommendation is to bring at least 40 betting units (ex. $5 x 40 = $200) and be ready to lose it all. I primarily play to get comps and have a few drinks playing $5 DD/SA/DAS/H17/3 to 2 pitch games 90% of the time. There are few places where this opportunity exists, but close to the strip I would check out South Point, The Orleans and Palace Station. You're definitely not going to get any style points for staying at these places and South Point probably offers the best rooms. The Orleans and Palace Station offer shuttles to the strip (South Point is $8-10). South Point has a strange play with no dealer peak, but you do not lose your original bet on dealer BJ. The keys to comps, in my experience, is to have a good time with the game, be a good player (not scaring other players off) and to just ask nicely.

3) It can not be repeated enough, be prepared to lose your bank roll without being upset. Treat gambling money as lost money the second you designate it as such, this will help prepare you for when it happens and you can continue to enjoy your vacation. Also, be prepared to walk from a table if you are losing, don't go for broke right away and then head to the ATM since you've got 3 more days to play. As others have mentioned here, the MyVEGAS game is 6 deck, reshuffle after every hand, that may be why you're perceiving a "cheat".

Quote: DealerSix

I primarily play to get comps and have a few drinks playing $5 DD/SA/DAS/H17/3 to 2 pitch games 90% of the time. There are few places where this opportunity exists, but close to the strip I would check out South Point, The Orleans and Palace Station.

I believe Silverton also has the same rules at 10$, and they tend to be less crowded than South Point. Also, I get way better comps from them.
South Point has the perk of double-handing at no increase in bet, if that's your thing.

Quote: Venthus

I believe Silverton also has the same rules at 10$, and they tend to be less crowded than South Point. Also, I get way better comps from them.
South Point has the perk of double-handing at no increase in bet, if that's your thing.

I keep hearing this about Silverton and will have to check it out. South Point tends to be $10 on nights and weekends. The Orleans and Palace Station (IIRC) also allow for two hand play at table minimum.

You frequent SP and have never gone to Silverton? It's almost literally down the street from SP, by something like a mile and a half.

If you go on weekdays, they often have minor giveaways for random stuff. Out of my last few trips, I got two water bottles, a decorative plate with a typo, 30$FP and 20$ food from pulltabs, and about 160$ in food vouchers between me and a friend.

I've been told by locals that Silverton NEVER changes their table denoms, so you don't have to worry about walking in on a Saturday night to find 25 minimums everywhere.

Quote: Venthus

You frequent SP and have never gone to Silverton? It's almost literally down the street from SP, by something like a mile and a half.

If you go on weekdays, they often have minor giveaways for random stuff. Out of my last few trips, I got two water bottles, a decorative plate with a typo, 30$FP and 20$ food from pulltabs, and about 160$ in food vouchers between me and a friend.

I've been told by locals that Silverton NEVER changes their table denoms, so you don't have to worry about walking in on a Saturday night to find 25 minimums everywhere.

I've driven past it countless times, but never ventured in. I think we will have to check it out based on your recommendation. How are the rooms? We also have spent a lot of time on Boulder Highway playing with the rules mentioned in my previous post. Not to sidetrack the thread, but what are the DD rules at Silverton?

I'd say they're on par with The Orleans, except with a lodge theme. (They've got an Bass Pro Outdoor World attached to them, so...) So in other words... okay, I guess? They're no Cosmo, but at least I felt safe using the sheets, unlike at Gold Strike... They also have big drinks that aren't watered down.

As I recall, double deck is 10$-25$min, pitch, DAS, resplit aces, double on any, hit soft 17, 3:2BJ, ~65% penetration. The single deck rules, frankly, suck. Also got the Royal Match sidebet if that's your thing.

This month's more interesting special: "Earn 500 points every Tuesday and Wednesday in August to redeem a $20 dining credit." 500 points is pretty modest; I hit several thousand in a few hours of 10-20$ action. 20$ food is enough for two at their basic restaurant if you're frugal. Or for 4-5, if you're hitting the graveyard special. (Ham steak, hash browns, eggs, toast for 4$, and fill in the crack with a 1$ slider.)

Thank you for the insight. I will have to check it out.

last time I went to South Point they only had "dealer checks for BJ after player's hands are played" or some nonsense.

I have spread 5-50 (over 100 at times when I split/double) with no heat, do I just suck at counting or did I play in places that did not care?

deleted

Quote: djatc

last time I went to South Point they only had "dealer checks for BJ after player's hands are played" or some nonsense.

I have spread 5-50 (over 100 at times when I split/double) with no heat, do I just suck at counting or did I play in places that did not care?

While I don't know your card counting abilities I do know that South Point definitely cares. It's run by Jackie Gaughan's son, Michael. Jackie once owned El Cortez and is still involved there.

Quote: djatc

last time I went to South Point they only had "dealer checks for BJ after player's hands are played" or some nonsense.

Yeah, they don't check for BJ if it's 10-up. However, they only take the base bet, unlike some places I've heard where they take doubles and splits. I think it's done more as a time saving measure since they don't use a viewfinder or whatever that thing is called.

Quote: Venthus

Yeah, they don't check for BJ if it's 10-up. However, they only take the base bet, unlike some places I've heard where they take doubles and splits. I think it's done more as a time saving measure since they don't use a viewfinder or whatever that thing is called.

My understanding was that there is a royalty for the peek mirrors, just like side games, so they opted to do it the way they are to save cash.

Quote: wroberson

I'm used to playing with a small bankroll and actually winning.

I'm used to playing with a small bankroll and actually losing.

> Watch the game play. When you think the deck is favorable take a seat.
Did that got two blackjacks in a row right off the start and an announcement of the event by the dealer to the table. Ended up a net loser though after a while.

>50 bucks in gas per day is a lot cheaper than losing more at the tables.
True, but rather than "see the desert" its sometimes better to zig zag between casinos and sample some of the "specialties"... you are sort of gambling but you spend alot of time traveling and waiting that you are not really losing much. The hot dog here, the pastrami there, the fifty cent roulette, the this, the that.

>This is for a home casino that's 5 dollars in gas away round trip.
>Win 50 bucks and go home. Go back in a day or two and do it again.
Well, I try for 55 and I try to EAT at the casino as well. So if nothing else half the gas money can be allocated to having had lunch or some afternoon sushi, which I was going to do anyway somewhere. The other advantage is that if you are away from home for a longer period you can lower the thermostat and the amount you save on electricity can go to gasoline. That way you spend a bit on gasoline, you save a bit on electricity, you get a lunch you were going to get somewhere anyway and you still have your 55 goal of if luck is with you you take the money but don't press your luck.