There be spies here!
What I saw was every dealer, at a dead table (no players), practicing a new procedure for dealing hole cards on pitch games; that was implemented just last night. In this new procedure, the deck is held at about 30 degrees, with the front edge of the deck touching the felt. One hand holds the top card still, while the other hand pulls back on the rest of the deck. As the bottom cards are slid back, the top card is quickly pressed down.
While the dealers were practicing, the floor person would walk around, critiquing their practice. I overheard him explaining that all Boyd casinos will soon be using this procedure.
I think it would be more accurate to say that the casinos are good at doing their job!
They could have just looked at the surveillance footage after getting popped!
There's a number of APs who say exactly where they are. Some don't. Even the ones who don't say have given enough info that I can probably peg them within a property, and definitely within a section of a State.
Me, I don't care. Do it there, hell, do it here, I'm still not scouring this or any forum for my next big break. But don't think there might not be some big suit or guy looking to make a name that does exactly that.
That being said, I wouldn't say that this is a result of said "spies". Just looks like good game pro, and really, not rocket science. Should've been doing this a long time ago; fortunately for the APs, there's still plenty of dummies running the games out there.
And it wouldn't surprise me if they all subscribe to Google Alerts so that everytime subjects of interest are mentioned Google sends them an email with a link.
I have a Google Alert set up for "Alan Mendelson" and I know immediately what happens when the lawyer in San Francisco, the dentist in Ft Lauderdale (he went to jail), and the other Alan Mendelsons of the world make news.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI have a Google Alert set up for "Alan Mendelson" and I know immediately what happens when the lawyer in San Francisco, the dentist in Ft Lauderdale (he went to jail), and the other Alan Mendelsons of the world make news.
Ever read this book?Quote: mwalz9Since casino execs read this forum and there seems to be so many people with connections in this place, who can help a guy with degrees in both Accounting and Finance score a job in a casino doing something? LoL I love the casino and everything about it. I'd love to work in one, doing anything!
You do know that "certain restrictions apply." You can't play there, and that you, your immediate family, etc. are disqualified from any promotional offers
8)
Quote: DeMangoThat is why no advantage plays should see the light of day on this site. Idiots that come on here to brag, just blow it for themselves and everyone else. Next thing you know somebody will be live streaming a craps challenge. Nitwits.
GOLD!!!
Quote: mwalz9You can't play "there" or at any of that casino's other properties?
Can't speak for them all, but for me it's property. If it's "owned by", it's off limits. However, some within the corporation are given leeway. Generally, the more menial the task, the more freedom you get.
Quote: mwalz9You can't play "there" or at any of that casino's other properties?
I know that (in MS) Caesar's does not allow you to play at the specific property you work at. The rule may vary by location and/or corporation.
From a recent promotion at an unnamed Vegas casino: "Employees of Casino and its parent, subsidiaries, affiliates, owned, operated or managed properties, contractors hired for the operation of the Promotion or parent companies and immediate family members of such employees as determined by Casino are not eligible to participate in the Promotion, unless approved in advance by Casino. Immediate Family is defined as: mother, father, spouse, brother, sister, children, son-in-law, daughter-in-law, mother-in-law, father-in-law, step-parents, step-children, grandmother, grandfather, grandchildren and any other relative or other person residing in the employee’s place of residence."
...Which basically means, they own you :)
Or maybe it's a little lower on the chain. Maybe in this era when the casino industry has cut back on everything from cutting crucial things like surveillance to table games managers, who now are responsible for a greater number of tables, they have instead invested their resources into setting up an elaborate room in their hotel, where they employ a dozen mid-level execs to cruise the internet 24/7 to see just who is saying what about what. This makes sense to me.
Or maybe it's the pit guys and floormen themselves. After completing their work day for which they are responsible for more tables etc, as already mentioned they run home, log on and take up this spy thing on their own time, for no pay, in the hopes of catching the next MIT team members. I mean after all, these guys don't have families and personal lives. They can continue their day jobs at night after work, for no pay.
Now, I'm not saying their aren't some here from the other side that are members of the site... there are. Some are open about it. Some, whom I have had the pleasure and benefit of communicating with privately just have personal interest in this topic not related to their work. They actually play on 'our' side of the table during their own time and are out learn all they can for their own benefit.
So, I think this paranoia about spys from the other side is overrated. A bigger concern to me, is members, sometimes long standing members of the AP community that later switch sides and consult and work for the industry. The 'Max Rubins', the 'Elliots', even our own wizard, who runs the site. I don't begrude anyone making money and at least these folk are up front about it.
The bottom line for me, is I participate on a couple different sites because it is beneficial to myself in terms of info and connections made, and second, it provides an outlet to discuss and bounce things off of like-minded folks that I didn't have for most career as a solo player. I do now have a partner/associate, but frankly I already spend enough time with and talking with him. lol
Now, I am not saying, members shouldn't be cautious. I personally, try not to name casinos that I play. and when I relate stories or incidents that have happened to me, I usually invoke some sort of 'delay' period. If I mention a back-off that happened recently, you can be damn sure it didn't happen yesterday or last week, despite what I may claim. It probably happened last fall or summer.
I do worry about certain members, that post these detailed trip reports, telling where they are staying/playing/eating as it is happening in real time. They practically tell us when they take a bathroom break. I would certainly advise against this, but really not my concern. :)
Not naming anyone in particular, just trying to FACE facts.
My primary field is Computer/Information Security, so I see many parallels here.
Quote: kewljCasino Execs and spies: I have hear this mentioned on several sites that I participate on from time to time. For the most part, sounds like a lot of paranoia to me. The cat and mouse game of AP play breeds paranoia. So here's a couple questions. What level casino execs do you guys think are spying on you?...
It's going to be the self-motivated career "Superstars," looking for that next attaboy. Those who see working there as more than "a job."
Quote: kewljMaybe... they have instead invested their resources into setting up an elaborate room in their hotel, where they employ a dozen mid-level execs to cruise the internet 24/7 to see just who is saying what about what. This makes sense to me.
Having a BI (Business Intelligence) operation creates a "cost center." However, it might work as an independent research/advisement/consulting business. Thanks for the idea!
Quote: kewljNow, I'm not saying their aren't some here from the other side that are members of the site... there are. Some are open about it. Some, whom I have had the pleasure and benefit of communicating with privately just have personal interest in this topic not related to their work. They actually play on 'our' side of the table during their own time and are out learn all they can for their own benefit.
Works the same way in the security field; we mingle overtly and covertly with hackers all the time. Several hacker conventions host "Spot The Fed" contests. Outted Feds get a t-shirt.
Quote: kewljSo, I think this paranoia about spys from the other side is overrated.
An occasional helping of paranoia and good old fashioned FUD is good, because it keeps the troops in line.
Quote: kewljA bigger concern to me, is members, sometimes long standing members of the AP community that later switch sides and consult and work for the industry. The 'Max Rubins', the 'Elliots', even our own wizard, who runs the site. I don't begrude anyone making money and at least these folk are up front about it.
Ah yes, the "sellouts," those who graduated and "went on" to do bigger things in life. You can't be a hippie forever, you know :)
Quote: kewljI personally, try not to name casinos that I play. and when I relate stories or incidents that have happened to me, I usually invoke some sort of 'delay' period. If I mention a back-off that happened recently, you can be damn sure it didn't happen yesterday or last week, despite what I may claim. It probably happened last fall or summer.
Information obfuscation is a good idea. That's one component of a good OPSEC plan.
Quote: kewljI do worry about certain members, that post these detailed trip reports, telling where they are staying/playing/eating as it is happening in real time. They practically tell us when they take a bathroom break. I would certainly advise against this, but really not my concern. :)
Facebook and Twitter already has this problem, criminals who "Like" you a little too much for your own good.
When you need cover plays, camoflage and concealment concerning your actions in a casino, that makes a statement.
I look at the Boyd dealers learning to protect the hole card as a good thing. In fact, I look at casino operators who don't address game protection issues as not fully doing their job, and an accomplice in their own punishment. They're running a business.
But spies? No, not for reviewing any up to date gaming related sites. Most useful are discountgambling.net and A.P. Heat!
Quote: PaigowdanAny action that is truly "above board" or on the up and up can be done in the open, and so, it is without fear of discovery, or of spies.
When you need cover plays, camoflage and concealment concerning your actions in a casino, that makes a statement.
I look at the Boyd dealers learning to protect the hole card as a good thing. In fact, I look at casino operators who don't address game protection issues as not fully doing their job, and an accomplice in their own punishment. They're running a business.
But spies? No, not for reviewing any up to date gaming related sites. Most useful are discountgambling.net and A.P. Heat!
Okay, perhaps we should use the term "Gaming Intelligence collection," instead. It can be equally applied to both sides.
Quote: GHOkay, perhaps we should use the term "Gaming Intelligence collection," instead.
Yes.
Quote: GHIt can be equally applied to both sides.
No, it can't. Only one side here is disobeying the house rules by counting, hole carding, etc.
You can't tresspass a casino operations manager for doing his job on a property, but you can a hole carder or card counter.
Quote: PaigowdanAny action that is truly "above board" or on the up and up can be done in the open, and so, it is without fear of discovery, or of spies.
When you need cover plays, camoflage and concealment concerning your actions in a casino, that makes a statement.
Quote: Paigowdan
No, it can't. Only one side here is disobeying the house rules by counting, hole carding, etc.
Oh boy. Here we go. Disobeying house rules: I wish the casinos would just hang a sign. No thinking allowed. lol
Quote: PaigowdanNo, it can't. Only one side here is disobeying the house rules by counting, hole carding, etc.
On a national scale, intelligence collection is used by both the "good guys" and the "bad guys." But if the good guys catch you collecting your intelligence, then you get charged with "espionage."
Quote: BuzzardNot naming anyone in particular, just trying to FACE facts.
Hey, I identified myself as Game Pro in my first ever post here, been open about it ever since and always. If someone was unaware, they're either new or not paying attention.
I came because I was clueless about gaming. I stayed for the conversation and colorful cast of characters. I'm too busy talking about guns and cars and politics to worry about some off the clock holecarding...
Funny story; my first ever post was about me entering the WGPC's (that's game protection) card counting competition. The first response I ever got was from PaiGowDan telling me I was wasting my time =D
Gotta hand it to you PGD, you're nothing if not tenatious =)
Quote: kewljOh boy. Here we go. lol
Sure, okay - let's get into it.
It's about playing - or not playing - by the rules of the property you are in.
And if you post reports about dealers exposing hole cards and not protecting a game, then you will soon see reports about dealers learning and practicing new game protection skills, as a response.
Some people will say "dang!" - and others saying, "about time it was addressed."
Quote: PaigowdanAnd if you post reports about dealers exposing hole cards and not protecting a game, then you will soon see reports about dealers learning and practicing new game protection skills, as a response.
Some people will say "dang!" - and others saying, "about time it was addressed."
I think the whole thing is hilarious; I thought I was retiring from all this cloak & dagger stuff, and I find myself being drawn back into a different reality/version of it.
Quote: FaceHey, I identified myself as Game Pro in my first ever post here, been open about it ever since and always. If someone was unaware, they're either new or not paying attention.
I came because I was clueless about gaming. I stayed for the conversation and colorful cast of characters. I'm too busy talking about guns and cars and politics to worry about some off the clock holecarding...
I don't worry about it either - but I do take notes. Work isn't a worry, and neither should it be.
Quote: FaceFunny story; my first ever post was about me entering the WGPC's (that's game protection) card counting competition. The first response I ever got was from PaiGowDan telling me I was wasting my time =D
Gotta hand it to you PGD, you're nothing if not tenatious =)
Thanks. "Never sleeping" is more like it. Get lazy = Get taken. We're dealing with gamblers and less, here.
Quote: GHI think the whole thing is hilarious; I thought I was retiring from all this cloak & dagger stuff, and I find myself being drawn back into reality/version of it.
It actually isn't cloak and dagger stuff. That's a whole "21" fantasy.
Routine loss prevention. Some do better than others, some are lazier than others.
Quote: PaigowdanSure, okay - let's get into it.
It's about playing - or not playing - by the rules of the property you are in.
And if you post reports about dealers exposing hole cards and not protecting a game, then you will soon see reports about dealers learning and practicing new game protection skills, as a response.
Some people will say "dang!" - and others saying, "about time it was addressed."
Haven't we gone here before too many times? I will play along yet again, but am only willing to discuss my activities. I don't hole-card, mark cards, change the results of hands, nor cheat in any way, so please don't lump me in with those breaking the law or cheating as you seem to like to do. Your argument against thinking is weak, so you always want to include cheating.
I play the game exactly by the rules. I hit, stand, split, double, surrender exactly as the rules permit and as stated. I wager somewhere between the table minimum and table maximum exactly as required by the stated rules. I don't alter the game, nor the outcome of the game in any way. What is at issue is how and why I make my decisions of how to play the hand and/or what amount I bet. The rule that I apparently break in "Dan's world" is the unposted rule of thinking. I refuse to give up that option.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Even though you don't do it, hole-carders do exactly the same thing.
Hole-carding is a grey area to me. Players aren't cheating, but they are gaining information that they were not intended to have. I won't lump them in with cheaters, but I personally don't care for winning that way with the exception of the occasional glimpse of a card that is part of the normal process. I mean, you can't pretend you don't see the card. Well, you can actually. I remember one time, the dealer accidentally exposed the hole card. Everyone saw it, knew he has a ten under is up 10. The pit guy even announced, "looks like you have to beat 20". Several of us tried to beat 20. I hit my 19. The guy at third base stood on his hard 17. The pit guy told him he needed to hit to try to beat 20, but the guy refused. He said he never hits a hard 17. ???lol
Quote: kewljHole-carding is a grey area to me. Players aren't cheating, but they are gaining information that they were not intended to have. I won't lump them in with cheaters, but I personally don't care for winning that way with the exception of the occasional glimpse of a card that is part of the normal process. I mean, you can't pretend you don't see the card. Well, you can actually. I remember one time, the dealer accidentally exposed the hole card. Everyone saw it, knew he has a ten under is up 10. The pit guy even announced, "looks like you have to beat 20". Several of us tried to beat 20. I hit my 19. The guy at third base stood on his hard 17. The pit guy told him he needed to hit to try to beat 20, but the guy refused. He said he never hits a hard 17. ???lol
Recently while playing off comp table play, the dealer made some sort of misdeal because of the cut card (i think she forgot to deal her first hole card in proper order), the pit boss ruled we had the option to take our bets back for the hand or play the hand. I had an 18 vs 8 up, iirc and stood. The floor made sure i wanted to do that, but it looks like I was correct by about one-tenth of a unit. If she had also exposed and knew she had 19+, I'm obv taking the bet back. Only Dan would stay in that spot.
Quote: kewljI remember one time, the dealer accidentally exposed the hole card. Everyone saw it, knew he has a ten under is up 10. The pit guy even announced, "looks like you have to beat 20". Several of us tried to beat 20. I hit my 19. The guy at third base stood on his hard 17. The pit guy told him he needed to hit to try to beat 20, but the guy refused. He said he never hits a hard 17. ???lol
Was it PaigowDan that refused to hit the hard 17?
Quote: MakingBookWas it PaigowDan that refused to hit the hard 17?
No. Dan was busy on his cell phone reporting the pit boss to upper management !
Quote: kewljHaven't we gone here before too many times? I will play along yet again, but am only willing to discuss my activities. I don't hole-card, mark cards, change the results of hands, nor cheat in any way, so please don't lump me in with those breaking the law or cheating as you seem to like to do. Your argument against thinking is weak, so you always want to include cheating.
I play the game exactly by the rules. I hit, stand, split, double, surrender exactly as the rules permit and as stated. I wager somewhere between the table minimum and table maximum exactly as required by the stated rules. I don't alter the game, nor the outcome of the game in any way. What is at issue is how and why I make my decisions of how to play the hand and/or what amount I bet. The rule that I apparently break in "Dan's world" is the unposted rule of thinking. I refuse to give up that option.
Kewlj - Couldn't have been said any better! If someone's play given these set of conditions is too risky for the casino, then the casino can take actions (reduce penetration, early shuffle, back off, etc) to reduce the their risk, but please don't lump counters in the same boat as cheaters. As I've said before, the nature of the game requires decision making, so therefore expecting a player to use their brain to only make certain decisions (hit, stand, double, etc.) but not use their intellect to appropriately make bet sized decisions or index plays is ridiculous.
Quote: kewlj
Haven't we gone here before too many times? I will play along yet again, but am only willing to discuss my activities. I don't hole-card, mark cards, change the results of hands, nor cheat in any way, so please don't lump me in with those breaking the law or cheating as you seem to like to do.
I didn't lump you in there. Kewlj, you're fine, 100% Legal. But that's not the point.
All of this, "well, I didn't mark cards, did hole-card," etc. is a red herring. If card counting is is against the house rules - and you know this - then you're knowingly violating the rules, and are subject to back-offs and expulsions.
Quote: kewljYour argument against thinking is weak, so you always want to include cheating.
No. If you get backed off or expelled from a property, or end up on a "no play" list - you were NOT thinking, and not a genius. Where do you equate "I must be thinking because I deliberately did something in my favor that willfully broke a house rule."
Quote: kewljI play the game exactly by the rules.
That's a lie and you know it, as you know card counting is against the rules.
If you're subject to flat-betting, to back-offs, to expulsion ('getting 86-ed'), then you'd be hard-pressed to say with a straight face, "It's because I played by the rules...") No, all that shows it against the house rules.
Quote: kewljI hit, stand, split, double, surrender exactly as the rules permit and as stated. I wager somewhere between the table minimum and table maximum exactly as required by the stated rules. I don't alter the game, nor the outcome of the game in any way. What is at issue is how and why I make my decisions of how to play the hand and/or what amount I bet. The rule that I apparently break in "Dan's world" is the unposted rule of thinking. I refuse to give up that option.
1. The question here isn't hitting and standing. The question here also isn't table minimums and table maximums. It's about betting amount patterns rising and falling in parallel with the count. A person who denied doing a particular corporate wrong doing may also argue, "What did I do wrong? I fully followed by corproate by-laws about sexual harrasment, about attendance, about following the chain of command, etc., - all according to MY OWN ethical standards - so how did I get fired and thrown out??!!"
2. This ain't my world, it's YOUR world. I'm never subject to surveillance reviews. I never have to wear camoflage, use false ID, use cover plays, and I'm certainly not subject to being expelled from a casino. If I had to go through all that, I wouldn't claim to be using my brain.
3. Everyone knows that counting is against the house rules, and subjects you to flat-betting and expulsion and other negative results, and that's the act that gets you in noticed and in trouble with the house. Not hitting and standing issues, not marking cards as the issue, not obeying the table maximum and minimum as the issue, etc. All that is fine and not the issue. To say it's all ethical, and that "I'm a white hat - because it's okay in MY OWN book" is the argument here. For that matter, burglary is ethical, acceptable, and "using my brains" in the mind of a criminal - if it nets him some good booty. Not a question of state law, it's a question of the playing by the house rules - which we KNOW says "no card counting AP play."
Why don't you be honest. What the industry really wants is no winners. Why don't they just post a sign saying 'no winning allowed'. They want sloppy, drunk stupid losing players and will do everything in their power to insure the player is just that way, including purposely over-serving many players. Where is the honor and ethics in that?
The industry has already set the rules, to their favor. They have have a built in advantage and they win from 99.99 percent of the players. That's a pretty nice winning percent. But that's not enough.....they want 100%. And for every one of those .01 percent (and that's a generous estimate) that is able to beat the house by thinking, by doubling their 8 against the dealer 5 when they think the deck is rich, there are 100 players that stand on their 12 and 13's against the dealer 10, who don't double an 11 against a 6, who hit a 15 vs a dealer 5. So give me a break. You and your industry need to STFU, man up and play the game. You are in the business of taking action and you have a huge advantage. I am all for protecting yourself against crooks and cheats, but quit crying about the 1 in 10,000 players that wins by completely legal means by doing nothing more than thinking.
And now I am off to do some thinking. :)
Quote: PaigowdanEveryone knows that counting is against the house rules, .... ...it's a question of the playing by the house rules- which we KNOW says "no card counting AP play."
If a casino wishes for everyone to play by those "rules", then they should be willing to publish those rules openly, stating (in print and posted or distributed to the public) exactly what is allowed and what is not. Instead, they keep them hidden internally, subject to being changed on whim or to being enforced on whim. In such cases, I consider those to be "internal corporate policies", not "rules of the game". Internal corporate policies are for employees to follow; players should only be expected to follow the official rules.
Quote: kewljI am sorry Dan, but I have never seen it posted No card counting and/or no thinking. When I sit down at the table, I see the rules posted. Stand/or hit 17 and insurance on the felt. Table minimum and maximums on a sign. Surrender and splitting rules on a sign. No mid shoe entry where applicable on a sign. Where is this no thinking rule posted?
Why don't you be honest. What the industry really wants is no winners. Why don't they just post a sign saying 'no winning allowed'. They want sloppy, drunk stupid losing players and will do everything in their power to insure the player is just that way, including purposely over-serving many players. Where is the honor and ethics in that?
The industry has already set the rules, to their favor. They have have a built in advantage and they win from 99.99 percent of the players. That's a pretty nice winning percent. But that's not enough.....they want 100%. And for every one of those .01 percent (and that's a generous estimate) that is able to beat the house by thinking, by doubling their 8 against the dealer 5 when they think the deck is rich, there are 100 players that stand on their 12 and 13's against the dealer 10, who don't double an 11 against a 6, who hit a 15 vs a dealer 5. So give me a break. You and your industry need to STFU, man up and play the game. You are in the business of taking action and you have a huge advantage. I am all for protecting yourself against crooks and cheats, but quit crying about the 1 in 10,000 players that wins by completely legal means by doing nothing more than thinking.
And now I am off to do some thinking. :)
Stated as well as it can be. Good job Sir!
Quote: DocIf a casino wishes for everyone to play by those "rules", then they should be willing to publish those rules openly, stating (in print and posted or distributed to the public) exactly what is allowed and what is not. Instead, they keep them hidden internally, subject to being changed on whim or to being enforced on whim. In such cases, I consider those to be "internal corporate policies", not "rules of the game". Internal corporate policies are for employees to follow; players should only be expected to follow the official rules.
So, in an effort to straighten out our terminology:
* House Rules: Publicly posted, terms and conditions on the operation of a game.
* Cheating: Any action that, through legal precedent, that has been criminalized by a regulatory or legislative body.
* Advantage Play: Any action that does not violate house rules, and is not considered cheating; but the casino wishes it were.
* Countermeasure: Things a casino is legally allowed to do, in order to discourage excessive abuse of advantage plays; either to the game or the player in question.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSince we're getting off the subject of "spies", I'll try and steer it back on course. They are in every board. And if you think they aren't on the private or pay per sites, you're sadly mistaken.
In hacking and computer security, we call this the "Circle Of Trust" problem. Everyone has to somehow be vetted.
Quote: rainmanThe simple fact casinos implement rules that when boiled down mean don't do anything to play this game well or we will take measures against you, makes me feel good about what I do. On a side note I have been working on A new A-play. If it pans out I'm calling it the Lubin.
wow, I'd be honored, cool.... :)
Quote: GHSo, in an effort to straighten out our terminology:
The below are your terms, not any operator's terms.
[q GH]"* House Rules: Publicly posted, terms and conditions on the operation of a game." No - These are "GH" rules.
[Reality]"* House rules already publicly known, regardless of any postings, which are not a condition, even if you feel that they should be one of YOUR conditions. Violation of house rules, to include counting and using flashed information can lead to being backed off or dismissed from the property." Doesn't actually matter how AP Player 'x' feels about it, or what he thinks about it.
"* Cheating: Any action that, through legal precedent, that has been criminalized by a regulatory or legislative body." Correct here.
"* Advantage Play: Any action that does not violate house rules, and is not considered cheating; but the casino wishes it were."
No. Under this definition, card counting is not an advantage play, as it violates the house rules fully enough for a back off or expulsion. By your own definition, only Basic Strategy is an advantage play on blackjack, as counting does violate the house rules. You get backed off for exactly this reason.
* Countermeasure: Things a casino is legally allowed to do, in order to discourage excessive abuse of advantage plays; either to the game or the player in question.
Yup.
Quote: Paigowdan"* Advantage Play: Any action that does not violate house rules, and is not considered cheating; but the casino wishes it were."
No. Under this definition, card counting is not an advantage play, as it violates the house rules fully enough for a back off or expulsion. By your own definition, only Basic Strategy is an advantage play on blackjack, as counting does violate the house rules. You get backed off for exactly this reason.
But Dan, a casino can back off or expel a player for any reason. They don't need to justify it based on some nebulous, unposted "house rule" violation -- they just get to say "you're too good for us, please take your play elsewhere." Suppose the dealer forgot to shuffle a fresh deck and started dealing -- now the players know the entire sequence of cards that are coming. Are you suggesting that playing based on that knowledge somehow violates the house rules? If not, then how could playing with *less specific* knowledge of the cards that are coming do otherwise?
