What does it take to get heat?

So a question for you guys who've been playing for a while:

I'm new to counting and just getting the hang of it. I'm not looking to be a pro -- just a hobby (I like the mental workout), and I just like playing and want to minimize losses (maybe win a little), and get some comps.

I've been reading message boards for a while now, and I've read reports of people spreading their bets $10-$200 and getting no heat, and I've read reports of people doubling their $25 bet and getting backed off.

What kind of betting spread at a $10 or $25 table is likely to arouse suspicion?

I've got a vegas trip coming up and I'll be hitting some strip casinos and giving it a go with counting -- but I don't want to risk getting backed off or having my players card flagged (yeah, yeah... I know if you're counting you're *never* supposed to play with a card).

Would spreading $25-$100 at a DD game get me noticed? $10-$100 at a 6D shoe? I know this is conservative for a real AP, but like I said, this is just a hobby for me, and I want to take the first steps passed regular BS play.

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I've spread $10-$200 in Vegas often, but whenever I reach max bet of $200, I do not start another shoe at $10.
I leave; maybe come back to the same casino later.

I don't use a players card because I "wong out" often; or otherwise don't stay long enough to get rated anyway.

Like you, I'm no pro (obviously), and I'll be anxious to read any responses from the real pro's around here.

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On the radio show this week, I think it was Munchkin
who said there are Strip casinos who will back you off
now just for cruising the BJ tables in a suspicious way.

I play the remaining 3/2 games at CZR properties like Flamingo and Paris and have never had an issue at a $25 table moving as high as $200. However at Ellis Island I was made to feel like they were watching me, though not asked to leave moving from $10 to $50. But the Ellis Heffe beer is good.

Yep, there's no real answer to the question. I've spread 1:60 at notoriously sweaty properties without incident, and I've gotten heat just for walking around in the pit (applies mostly to sharper properties with good surveillance). 1:4 at DD isn't good enough to beat the game to begin with, and in the $25 Strip DD games that you're probably thinking of, even that can bring the hammer down. As a general rule, you'll start getting more attention once you cross the $100 threshold, and again when you cross the $500 threshold. Sure, the difference between your top and bottom bet is a big red flag, but anyone who thinks that a 1:10 spread is significantly less telling than a 1:20 spread is fooling themselves. If you have a positive betting correlation with the count, then you will eventually be nailed as a counter. Make it worth your time and play the game hard. Remember that wonging out can also increase your actual spread while keeping your apparent spread pretty low.

Quote: EvenBob

On the radio show this week, I think it was Munchkin
who said there are Strip casinos who will back you off
now just for cruising the BJ tables in a suspicious way.

Muchkin said he knew of players who were backed off from the El Cortez for walking around BJ tables in a suspicious way.

Quote: RogerKint

Muchkin said he knew of players who were backed off from the El Cortez for walking around BJ tables in a suspicious way.

While El Cortez has playable games, it isn't worth the trouble in my opinion. I play at Strip props at CZR and never have to deal with problems like this. I hold my own and by no means make a living at playing, but I have never felt I lost more than I get in free room comps and free food. Call me lucky, but I believe that they make enough off the poor tourist players to be worried about someone who wins a couple hundred playing the game right.

Quote: drfaust

So a question for you guys who've been playing for a while:

I'm new to counting and just getting the hang of it. I'm not looking to be a pro -- just a hobby (I like the mental workout), and I just like playing and want to minimize losses (maybe win a little), and get some comps.

I've been reading message boards for a while now, and I've read reports of people spreading their bets $10-$200 and getting no heat, and I've read reports of people doubling their $25 bet and getting backed off.

What kind of betting spread at a $10 or $25 table is likely to arouse suspicion?

I've got a vegas trip coming up and I'll be hitting some strip casinos and giving it a go with counting -- but I don't want to risk getting backed off or having my players card flagged (yeah, yeah... I know if you're counting you're *never* supposed to play with a card).

Would spreading $25-$100 at a DD game get me noticed? $10-$100 at a 6D shoe? I know this is conservative for a real AP, but like I said, this is just a hobby for me, and I want to take the first steps passed regular BS play.

Betting spread was nicely covered already. Other causes of heat could be index play, wonging, lifetime wins, playing unrated and returning to your base bet after having your max bet out.

That's funny re: getting heat for just walking around the pit. I routinely do a few rounds around the pit before I sit down, but not because I'm looking to wong-in. I'm actually looking for:

-a table that isn't overly crowded (unless the people look like they're actually having fun -- this is rare, though)
-a table where I won't get smoke blown on me (I'm still shocked that more places don't have nonsmoking pits -- I'd play a lot more if they did)
-a table with a good-looking dealer and/or good-looking players (I know this is bad strategy if I actually want to focus on the cards, but hey... I'm human) and/or a dealer who doesn't look like a zombie with a life of faded dreams


LG: good advice, but like I mentioned at the top, I'm not looking to kill the game. I'm looking for a little fun and maybe to break even, plus get some good comps. I think I'm one of the few people who actually loves his day job. This is just a little side-hobby for me. Gotta keep the mind sharp and learn new things.

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Quote: sodawater

people getting "heat" for milling about the pit are probably getting heat as potential pickpockets, not pro players.

At El Cortez, yes. At South Point, no. At South Point red chips and low minimums mean nothing, if they think you are greedy out you go.

I've noticed the quieter you are, the more "heat" you get.

Dealers constantly try and prod info from me by saying things like "Not doubling this time?" or "This guy's focused on something!"


I usually ignore it and proceed or just give some VooDoo logic of "I don't like doubling A-5, I always lose when I do!"

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The number one red flag for me is amateur counters (non wonging) pulling back big bets when they realize there is a shuffle. Having siad that, pit crews rarely seem to act on this. I would back people off the minute I saw this, just for their blatantcy.

Don't do it or at least take some cover like counting your chips.

A lot of non-counters do this too. The last shoe was lucky; not sure about this one...