Buzzard
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
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November 19th, 2012 at 7:12:57 PM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

No need to worry about counters though.
Paigowdan said AP is dead, a phantasm, or something like that?





Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.

Willy says casinos in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
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November 19th, 2012 at 7:28:40 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

IMHO the easiest to spot play is 2-card 16 vs. a 10-value, especially if NO surrender.



How is this easy to spot? The BS play is to hit it. Most people know this, but they don't play consistently. They think for a while, and then do something random depending on how they are feeling. They usually say some incomprehensible nonsense about 3rd base, saving the table, and/or the dealer's bust card while they are doing it.

So, what are you looking for? A counter will vary this play based on the count. Once you are keeping track of the count, wouldn't it be easier / quicker to see if they vary their bets with this count, rather than waiting for the 16v10 play? If you're not keeping track of the count, I don't see how you can tell the difference between the counter and the random civilian play. Gotta save the table, you know.
CRMousseau
CRMousseau
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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November 19th, 2012 at 10:39:02 PM permalink
Besides the obvious ones covered here (bet variation being big, 95%+ of gamblers don't spread more than 4:1) I'd say the single biggest issue one is this:

Losing blackjack players bet reflexively but struggle to play 'difficult' hands (multi-card stiffs vs 10, etc.) Card counters tend to the opposite; play variations are as simple as looking up a number in your brain you've seen 10,000 times before but trying to figure out whether +11 divided by 7 quarter decks is a table max bet or not? Needs some long division, not easy to do quickly. The only real antidote to that, having predetermined or "round" bet numbers in your head, is another large giveaway.

If you're going to vary your bet as if you're someone who "really don't give a damn", then you need to do it as sloppily as such a person would.
PlayHunter
PlayHunter
Joined: Sep 16, 2011
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November 20th, 2012 at 12:36:02 AM permalink
AxiomOfChoice I think you are right, if casinos want to get rid of AP as quickly as they can, and to lower their loses to the maximum, then why they do not keep the TC of each running shoe in their back end with surveillance cameras which record all blackjack tables ?

That way they can be also able to see who is rising bets when the count is getting good, if they play deviations accordingly. - Kick out !
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
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November 20th, 2012 at 1:20:44 PM permalink
If you want a decent baseline idea of what a particular casino is looking for to spot AP spend some time near the tables and listen to what the dealers are calling out (i.e. cheques play, black in action, splitting 10's, doubling a hard 12, etc.).
kewlj
kewlj
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November 20th, 2012 at 2:24:23 PM permalink
I have a casual friend who works the pits at one of the strip casinos, who has told me, there are 5 things he looks for in identifying a counter.

1.) hitting 16 vs 10 sometimes, while standing other times.
2.) Taking insurance some times while not other times.
3.) bet spread
4.) spreading to multiple hands.
5.) splitting 10's

16 vs 10 was at the top of his list because of the frequency of the play. His thought was that none of these plays alone identifies a counter, as many players make some of these plays, but when he sees two or three, he knows to take a closer look.
kewlj
kewlj
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November 20th, 2012 at 2:25:07 PM permalink
duplicate post
bigplayer
bigplayer
Joined: Nov 19, 2012
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November 20th, 2012 at 10:38:18 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.

Willy says casinos in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.



Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.
GH
GH
Joined: Oct 21, 2012
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November 21st, 2012 at 8:20:39 PM permalink
Quote: bigplayer

Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.



The topic of "game protection" parallels my experience with "information assurance/security." Companies & casinos are concentrating too much on "risk aversion" rather than "risk management."
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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November 24th, 2012 at 3:59:39 AM permalink
Quote: bigplayer

Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.

Quote: GH

The topic of "game protection" parallels my experience with "information assurance/security." Companies & casinos are concentrating too much on "risk aversion" rather than "risk management."



This question is more for bigplayer, but since GH essentially agreed I wouldn't mind hearing his/her take on this as well...

bigplayer, what is the source of your information for your statement above?

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