Card counting most common red flags ?

Just want to ask experienced counters what are the most common red flags for a HI-Lo or Red7 count in eyes of a pitboss/supervisor ?

(- I am asking because I was buying insurance and I had the impression that the dealer was looking suspiciously at my increased bet..)

There are actually only three or so tell tail signs. One is bet spreading. That's probably how most counters are caught. Second - I believe anyways - is facial countenance. That is many counters have a thinking expression and looking at everyone else's cards too much. Third is deviations. Especially the 16 vs 10 and splitting tens. Another one that doesn't come up so much is the 12 vs 4. There are a couple of more that I can't think of off hand.

So buying insurance only at times when my bet was increased should not worry me for rising a red flag ? (I was spreading 1 to 5)

Quote: PlayHunter

So buying insurance only at times when my bet was increased should not worry me for rising a red flag ? (I was spreading 1 to 5)

That's another one. Buying insurance only at certain times AND when your bet is larger is a small red flag. That's why I said three or so.

Thanks BigJer ! And how should I avoid these suspicions, especially playing deviations ? (I think insurance can be done by Wonging)

BTW, about Wonging: - How do I know if a shoe have a good TC so I jump in, if I did not count that shoe from the first card dealt ?

Things supervisors and surveillance at one casino actually look for according to a friend:
-Always starting shoe with minimum bet; only playing new shoes
-Neatly stacked chips that indicate pre-decided bet amounts. For example, premade 5 and 10 unit piles of chips sitting there ready to go.
-Looking at every card. Tip: only move your eyes as you watch the cards---not your entire head.
-Quiet/focused
-Buying insurance with large bets out but not at other times
-Split 10s
-12 v 14
-Various wongings.


If somebody sees these things they are supposed to have surveillance do a skills check.

Quote: PlayHunter

Thanks BigJer ! And how should I avoid these suspicions, especially playing deviations ? (I think insurance can be done by Wonging)

You can't. You have to play the hands correctly every time.

Quote:

BTW, about Wonging: - How do I know if a shoe have a good TC so I jump in, if I did not count that shoe from the first card dealt ?

Just start counting from zero. And if there are say 3 decks in the used card tray then you calculate those as cards unseen. So, say you came into a shoe with 3 decks dealt out of an 8D shoe. You include those three decks in your decks as yet to be dealt. I hope that's clear.

Quote: BigJer

Just start counting from zero. And if there are say 3 decks in the used card tray then you calculate those as cards unseen. So, say you came into a shoe with 3 decks dealt out of an 8D shoe. You include those three decks in your decks as yet to be dealt. I hope that's clear.

Yes, it is clear, but is it accurate ? I am thinking that there may be a very huge negative TC and I start to count it from 0. If this is possible, then I will rise my bets when my TC will be +2, but in fact, there is still a negative TC. If so, I am not betting on a -EV ?

Makes sense to me. It's like when they take a single deck from an 8 deck shoe and then deal pitch with that single deck/ I mean it's single deck for sure !

The best way to win at a casino game is to cheat. Find a dealer who is willing to split the profits.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shufflemaster/8068467149/in/set-72157631724361831

Quote: PlayHunter

Yes, it is clear, but is it accurate ? I am thinking that there may be a very huge negative TC and I start to count it from 0. If this is possible, then I will rise my bets when my TC will be +2, but in fact, there is still a negative TC. If so, I am not betting on a -EV ?

True but you can also have EV+. However the best thing to do is wait for a new shoe.

Thank you so much guys, very helpful info and much appreciated ! Surely I have learned something good from this thread. :-)

Scouting tables for the purpose of wonging in, wonging out, abstaining from alcohol, spreading to two hands, sitting at third base, not tipping, not using a players card and starting a new shoe at your base bet after they've seen your top bet. The last one is important and you really have to leave after that.

There is one thing I've always wondered. How much can you get away with if you're drinking?

I can hold my alcohol pretty well, and counting is not really all that hard. (I've never understood why everyone says that it is. I find remembering BS a lot harder than keeping an accurate count)

I'm not saying that I am going to pound them back, but if I am having, say, two drinks an hour, it is not going to affect my ability to count. It might affect my ability to remember BS, but I'm not too proud to use a BS card (and, I doubt that this can be considered a "giveaway" since every single person I've ever seen use one of those things plays absolutely terribly)

I continue to find it odd that people use drinking as some sort of measuring stick. Like a drink is a cover, a drinker couldn't possibly count, or a counter couldn't possibly drink? It makes no sense to me.

Pretty much all I look for is bet fluctuations and deviations from strategy. I don't care if you look at every card, if you concentrate enough to set a fire, if you want to see the burn card, whether you have a tonic sans gin or straight vodka, or whether your "phone call" has someone on the other end or not. Clues? Pfft. What are the cards and money doing, that's all that matters.

It seems, as it does with all too many things, that people are making the game too complicated, and wasting 90% of their time, not being productive, but chasing ghosts and creating suspicion. I'm glad I'm not a Vegan, I couldn't handle all the sweat.

OT, but what the hell does one from Vegas call oneself? A Las Vegan? Las Vegonian? Las Vegonite?

Quote: Face

Pretty much all I look for is bet fluctuations and deviations from strategy.

Isn't this what all civilians do?

Fluctuate bets- playing their progression systems, martingale systems, etc.

Deviate from strategy- because they do not know basic strategy.

No need to worry about counters though.
Paigowdan said AP is dead, a phantasm, or something like that?

Quote: MakingBook

Isn't this what all civilians do?

Fluctuate bets- playing their progression systems, martingale systems, etc.

Deviate from strategy- because they do not know basic strategy.

This is what I was thinking. If you kicked out everyone who deviated from basic strategy you would have some pretty empty tables.

And, as far as I can tell, almost no one flat-bets at the higher-limit tables (people do flat bet at the lower-limit tables though -- presumably they just want to have some fun with minimum losses).

Quote: MakingBook

Isn't this what all civilians do?

Fluctuate bets- playing their progression systems, martingale systems, etc.

Deviate from strategy- because they do not know basic strategy.

Wait, so there's more to it?

Just kidding, of course. I get jokes. I just assumed I didn't need to insult the intelligence of my counting couterparts by spelling it out.

This was asked 7-8 years ago at H/S Forums. IMHO the easiest to spot play is 2-card 16 vs. a 10-value, especially if NO surrender.
Varying bets... I guess so. But some folks add a chip after the second consecutive win. Thats not counting per se.

Quote: MakingBook

No need to worry about counters though.
Paigowdan said AP is dead, a phantasm, or something like that?

Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.

Willy says casinos in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.

Quote: 98Clubs

IMHO the easiest to spot play is 2-card 16 vs. a 10-value, especially if NO surrender.

How is this easy to spot? The BS play is to hit it. Most people know this, but they don't play consistently. They think for a while, and then do something random depending on how they are feeling. They usually say some incomprehensible nonsense about 3rd base, saving the table, and/or the dealer's bust card while they are doing it.

So, what are you looking for? A counter will vary this play based on the count. Once you are keeping track of the count, wouldn't it be easier / quicker to see if they vary their bets with this count, rather than waiting for the 16v10 play? If you're not keeping track of the count, I don't see how you can tell the difference between the counter and the random civilian play. Gotta save the table, you know.

Besides the obvious ones covered here (bet variation being big, 95%+ of gamblers don't spread more than 4:1) I'd say the single biggest issue one is this:

Losing blackjack players bet reflexively but struggle to play 'difficult' hands (multi-card stiffs vs 10, etc.) Card counters tend to the opposite; play variations are as simple as looking up a number in your brain you've seen 10,000 times before but trying to figure out whether +11 divided by 7 quarter decks is a table max bet or not? Needs some long division, not easy to do quickly. The only real antidote to that, having predetermined or "round" bet numbers in your head, is another large giveaway.

If you're going to vary your bet as if you're someone who "really don't give a damn", then you need to do it as sloppily as such a person would.

AxiomOfChoice I think you are right, if casinos want to get rid of AP as quickly as they can, and to lower their loses to the maximum, then why they do not keep the TC of each running shoe in their back end with surveillance cameras which record all blackjack tables ?

That way they can be also able to see who is rising bets when the count is getting good, if they play deviations accordingly. - Kick out !

If you want a decent baseline idea of what a particular casino is looking for to spot AP spend some time near the tables and listen to what the dealers are calling out (i.e. cheques play, black in action, splitting 10's, doubling a hard 12, etc.).

I have a casual friend who works the pits at one of the strip casinos, who has told me, there are 5 things he looks for in identifying a counter.

1.) hitting 16 vs 10 sometimes, while standing other times.
2.) Taking insurance some times while not other times.
3.) bet spread
4.) spreading to multiple hands.
5.) splitting 10's

16 vs 10 was at the top of his list because of the frequency of the play. His thought was that none of these plays alone identifies a counter, as many players make some of these plays, but when he sees two or three, he knows to take a closer look.

duplicate post

Quote: Buzzard

Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.

Willy says casinos in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.

Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.

Quote: bigplayer

Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.

The topic of "game protection" parallels my experience with "information assurance/security." Companies & casinos are concentrating too much on "risk aversion" rather than "risk management."

Quote: bigplayer

Willy may be correct on this but Card Counting in today's casino environment makes up a very small portion of this. A greater amount of money is lost by casinos simply due to their paranoia about card counters blinding them to the other forms of advantage play and outright theft and actual cheating that is really wrecking their bottom line.

Quote: GH

The topic of "game protection" parallels my experience with "information assurance/security." Companies & casinos are concentrating too much on "risk aversion" rather than "risk management."

This question is more for bigplayer, but since GH essentially agreed I wouldn't mind hearing his/her take on this as well...

bigplayer, what is the source of your information for your statement above?

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

This question is more for bigplayer, but since GH essentially agreed I wouldn't mind hearing his/her take on this as well...

...what is the source of your information for your statement above?

I've been an information assurance/security practitioner for more than 30 years; in the Government, IT and retail industries. Philosophically, my skillset should easily transfer into gaming as well. But enough about me...

In any industry, there are 2 kinds of security practitioners; the "superstars" and the "pragmatists." The superstar leans towards "risk aversion" and "world class excellence," without much consideration for cost and the bottom line. The pragmatist leans towards "risk management" and "good enough" to protect the bottom line. Security is viewed by management, in any industry, as a "cost center." It does not generate profit, or increase profit. If ever security was a "profit center," you'd see them listed in a company's annual report.

Now, I'm going to give some examples and commentary, of real life risk management, with respect to security...

Walmart will not prosecute shoplifters for values of under $25.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/13/news/companies/walmart_shoplifters/index.htm
This is the best publicly acknowledged form of risk management. Notice the last paragraph though, in the article. Obviously, the unhappy employee is a security "superstar" who is unhappy about the company's move away from security excellence.

Anonymous declares 'cyberwar' on Israel...
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/19/tech/web/cyber-attack-israel-anonymous/index.html
The government is doing a good job of managing risk. They haven't overreacted to the "attacks," because no critical systems are being affected. Strategically, I'd say let the script kiddies think they are doing harm.

On a weekly basis, I rotate through certain casinos. I sit down, play for just a bit; utter "BINGO!" to the dealer when I reach a certain dollar amount, and then walk away. I'm probably part of what Arnold Snyder calls the "counter subculture" that knows where every free hotdog in town is. The floor critters know who I am, no actions are ever taken against me; because I do not put them at risk.

Gambling makes up smallest chunk ever of casino revenue...
http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/jan/06/shift-spending-gambling-continues-state-reports
With bigger profit centers, casinos will be directing security to concentrate their limited resources on other tasks. They now have surveillance cameras in the buffet areas. They won't stop me from AP, but they once stopped me because surveillance saw me put food in my fanny pack!

Willy is a security superstar. Casino managers who attend his seminars will pick and choose what to do based primarily on the bottom line.

How does this affect the average AP personally? I think that if you use your head, and don't act greedy, you have nothing to worry about. Emphasis on the word "greedy."