Green Valley Ranch
November 18th, 2012 at 10:02:41 AM
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Not sure if this goes into Blackjack or "Stations Casinos". Mod please move if i guessed wrong.
Anyway, I was shocked to learn on my last visit that Green Valley Ranch, who to there credit has eschewed 6:5 and CSM's, added both!! They had two $5 single deck 6:5 games and a CSM game. According to a dealer, some players were asking for "Single Deck" so they re-introduced it. THere were still plenty of 5 and $10 Double deck seats, yet the 6:5 single deck was seeing action, so I guess they were right!
Anyway, I was shocked to learn on my last visit that Green Valley Ranch, who to there credit has eschewed 6:5 and CSM's, added both!! They had two $5 single deck 6:5 games and a CSM game. According to a dealer, some players were asking for "Single Deck" so they re-introduced it. THere were still plenty of 5 and $10 Double deck seats, yet the 6:5 single deck was seeing action, so I guess they were right!
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
November 18th, 2012 at 11:37:57 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 18th, 2012 at 1:32:54 PM
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Not that surprising, Red Rock has had single deck 6-5 for years.
November 18th, 2012 at 2:30:12 PM
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Whaaat?!? Shame on them. The Wizard should update my review to reflect this unwelcome information.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
November 18th, 2012 at 3:31:04 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesJust goes to show how smart the general gaming public is. Obviously not much so.
Thank God we're so brilliant here.
And GVR does well themselves.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:00:19 PM
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GVR is a nice place. It is also my de facto local casino since it is five minutes from my office and I don't have a place to live yet. I like their Guinness.
That said, you would have to be an idiot to play the single deck game there when one of the best double deck games in town is one table over. Even the laziest bastard in the world could count down that game. Of course, I usually just play craps :)
That said, you would have to be an idiot to play the single deck game there when one of the best double deck games in town is one table over. Even the laziest bastard in the world could count down that game. Of course, I usually just play craps :)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
November 18th, 2012 at 8:54:00 PM
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Quote: teddysEven the laziest bastard in the world could count down that game
challenge accepted! Of course, since I'm too lazy to practice counting first, things are looking good for me:-)
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
November 18th, 2012 at 10:03:01 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 1:46:16 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesSure they do well when you have so many suckers playing lousy games.
Oh....absolutely correct. If you want to look at it that way, then every gambler is a either a sucker - or a person enjoying entertainment.
There is NO other scenario.
AP is dead, a phantasm, an illusion - as every act of AP closes the door, as no one gives away free money for long. AP's have to continuously run and run some more to stay ahead, as the door is closing. Many washed up AP players end up as pitchmen for casino operators or distributors, or back at their day jobs, like Nathaniel Tilton.
It becomes a chase for those who chase it, like Salmon. If your chasing easy money, which isn't at a casino, then you're a salmon. If you're chasing entertainment and accept the action, which is indeed at the casino, then you're a winner.
I know who wins in the end, and I chose the correct side very early on. I chose to be a fisherman instead of a salmon.
I will knock on doors with Bagels and cream cheese. It's a feast day.
place your bets.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:15:38 AM
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Quote: rdw4potuschallenge accepted! Of course, since I'm too lazy to practice counting first, things are looking good for me:-)
One of my biggest pet peeves is the 'announcing' of favorable games and/or games with favorable rules and conditions on public message boards. So many times, I have witnessed conditions change almost overnight after such announcements, but since such an announcement has already been made, I will just add that GVR is not the best place for a "lazy" type counter. Their decent doubledeck games are 'hawked' very closely. If you are not going to play short sessions there, you are not going to last and I assume a "lazy" counter doesn't want to play short sessions and keep moving around.
It's a shame. GVR and their henderson neighbor to the west on far south LVB, (the place that goes by a single letter...lol) used to be two of the best opportunities in the Vegas Valley. They still offer some of the better games, but their over-protection attitudes, which force extremely short sessions, make a southern valley rotation strategy not nearly as benefitial. :(
November 19th, 2012 at 6:17:42 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 6:37:56 AM
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What's next for Paigowdan?
Will he label someone playing 3/2 blackjack instead of a 6/5 game a cheater?
Will he label someone playing 3/2 blackjack instead of a 6/5 game a cheater?
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
November 19th, 2012 at 7:06:13 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 7:25:43 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIts getting rediculous. I understand his position but he is obsessed with it.
I hear people rank on GVR, and use this board to chase the "next hottest card counting opportunity."
It's like chasing something that you won't get to in the end - just like a salmon - and that's what's ridiculous.
Seldom do I witness here discussions about honing your skills for poker room play, or for the race or sports book - where you are playing against other people, and where you CAN legitimately go +EV and be legit at the same time.
I think it is this board that is obsessed with finding the "next opportunity" that doesn't really exist, and not with developing poker room skills, race and sports book skills enough, in search of +EV play.
Quote: MakingBookWhat's next for Paigowdan?
Will he label someone playing 3/2 blackjack instead of a 6/5 game a cheater?
Nope. I'm perfectly fine with 3:2BJ, and for that matter any good EV play that's on the level, and won't get you backed off. In other words, I'm 100% fine with anything that is 100% fine to do in the casino, and to say otherwise is a crock.
Play best legit strategy on house-banked games? check, A-okay.
Study lines in the race and sports book looking for +EV opportunities? check - A-okay.
Improving your poker game? check - A-okay.
Anything that risks getting you thrown off a game, or out of a casino? A no go.
As gamblers what do we discuss here? Finding a casino you can get over on - hopefully without getting thrown the hell out. Now That's ridiculous.
And calling casino patrons "knuckleheads" for playing legit play, at a casino of their choice?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:53:36 AM
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Quote: Paigowdan
Nope. I'm perfectly fine with 3:2BJ, and for that matter any good EV play that's on the level, and won't get you backed off. In other words, I'm 100% fine with anything that is 100% fine to do in the casino, and to say otherwise is a crock.
And calling casino patrons "knuckleheads" for playing legit play, at a casino of their choice?
OK. Well, what the rest of us were saying is that the patrons playing 6/5 when a 3/2 table is 10 feet away are foolish - "knuckleheaded," I guess. Do you disagree with that assessment of the player who chooses a sub-optimal game?
On a different note - this board is not going to change. The proprietor agrees with and participates in the gaming practices that you do not like. Rather than try to tell everyone else what is "ok" to discuss, maybe you should consider removing yourself from these conversations if you do not like them. We're certainly going to continue to have these conversations whether you like it or not.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
November 19th, 2012 at 8:03:46 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanAs gamblers what do we discuss here? Finding a casino you can get over on - hopefully without getting thrown the hell out. Now That's ridiculous.
At the same time, you probably realize for the great majority of people who think they can benefit from actions you don't approve of, that in the long-run, they are still valuable patrons to the casinos. If everyone truly accepted that they will never win, the gaming industry would be in great trouble!
And not to rehash an old conversation, but patrons who "take advantage" of the system are many times just pointing out weaknesses that a well-run casino wouldn't have. Certain patrons in a sense become "consultants" for casinos that can be mismanaged. Can you imagine how poor quality control would be if there weren't certain advantage players out there?
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
November 19th, 2012 at 8:06:41 AM
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Quote: rdw4potusOK. Well, what the rest of us were saying is that the patrons playing 6/5 when a 3/2 table is 10 feet away are foolish - "knuckleheaded," I guess. Do you disagree with that assessment of the player who chooses a sub-optimal game?
On a different note - this board is not going to change. The proprietor agrees with and participates in the gaming practices that you do not like. Rather than try to tell everyone else what is "ok" to discuss, maybe you should consider removing yourself from these conversations if you do not like them. We're certainly going to continue to have these conversations whether you like it or not.
On the matter of payouts and paytables, various paytables for many games ARE adjusted by casinos, - and are usually done in order to keep a game viable and useable, -instead of killing an otherwise good game. Sometimes the game just has a "wrong" paytables were the game is struggling - hold is too high and the game gets no action, OR it is too low, and the game is dumping, just unsustainable; indeed, many 'countable' side bets get adjusted so that the game CAN be offered without it being a losing proposition for the casino to offer it. 6:5 BJ is a case in point.
If someone walks into a casino and enjoys playing Lucky Ladies (house edge 24%), or 6:5 blackjack, it's because those edges have to be that to offer the game. So, if a player enjoys playing it, (and such a player may win), I see no wrong with it, and nothing derogatory about it. Casinos also offer razor-thin house edge games like 10x odds on craps, and UTH, with a near zero house edge when properly played.
As for the board, yes, it is the nature of the beast. But while I understand that the lure of "seemingly beatable games" is a marketing tool, - often abused by some operators, and is a misleading lure at times, is sometimes unnecessary. I mean why offer and advertise 90% penetration on some tables, - only to have those tables as "back-off city?" From the casino's point of view, such an ad campaign only attracts those whom they'd be forced to back off.
I also view "gambling" as an activity that is not divorced from:
1. Realistic expectations going in; (getting an edge legitimately - yes. Advocating Breaking some house rules that'll risk ejection? No.), and
2. Playing these games by the rules of the property that you are inside of.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 19th, 2012 at 9:28:42 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 9:34:46 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 9:36:22 AM
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Quote: Ibeatyouraces6:5 blackjack is not needed and is strictly placed to rip off the average gambler, period!
Well it is not quite that simple. I have buddies that will go to a casino with me twice a year and they always seem to end up at a single deck 6:5 table. I try to explain why we all avoid 6:5 games and they do understand, they just don't care. They prefer the novelty of a single deck game and are willing to pay the higher price to get it. These people would in fact have a worse gambling experience with a higher ev 3:2 shoe game than they have with the 6:5 single deck game.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
November 19th, 2012 at 9:47:00 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 1:36:28 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanAP is dead, a phantasm, an illusion
Just because you repeat the same thing over and over again, it doesn't make it true. There are many people who make very good money playing casino games, and support themselves in this way. I know some of them (I am not one of them -- I have an actual job. I continue to believe that "professional gambler" is a hard way to make an easy living). However, I can assure you that these people exist. I'm not sure why this fact bothers you so much. I believe that what you are experiencing is called "denial", though.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:42:28 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanStudy lines in the race and sports book looking for +EV opportunities? check - A-okay.
...
Anything that risks getting you thrown off a game, or out of a casino? A no go.
If you make enough money betting sports, they will stop taking your action. Or, at least, severely limit your bet size.
The casinos will not take action on any game from anyone who wins consistently. I can't blame them; they are in the business to make money.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:47:59 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 19th, 2012 at 2:00:09 PM
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" If you make enough money betting sports, they will stop taking your action."
NOT ANY BOOKIES I EVER KNEW !
NOT ANY BOOKIES I EVER KNEW !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 2:06:14 PM
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Come on Buzzard. A bookie will only take so much of a beating before he says "no more". The independent (illegal) ones will cut you off faster than the casino will.
November 19th, 2012 at 2:18:14 PM
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Quote: Buzzard" If you make enough money betting sports, they will stop taking your action."
NOT ANY BOOKIES I EVER KNEW !
I'm with Buzz. The only time you cut a guy off is when they run out of money and can't pay when they lose.
If a bookie identifies a winning player, they can/will use that information to their advantage.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
November 19th, 2012 at 2:20:52 PM
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In the 1940's Calumet Farm had a jockey who bet with Henry G. ... Calumet was the leading stable by far. When this jockey bet large, Henry laid off the action and bet VERY large.
Forget the jockey's name, but he disappeared in Everglades while fishing. SIGH
Forget the jockey's name, but he disappeared in Everglades while fishing. SIGH
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 2:26:11 PM
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Googled it
After getting Citation to the starting gate of the Kentucky Derby, Al Snider decided to go deep sea fishing with a group of friends to relax. On 6 May 1948, they chartered a yacht and went out to fish along the Florida Keys - in one of the corners of the famed Bermuda Triangle. They never returned. Subsequent searches turned up no trace of the yacht, Al Snider, or his friends.
I seem to remember it being a skiff that turned up empty days later. Rumors of foul play, etc.
After getting Citation to the starting gate of the Kentucky Derby, Al Snider decided to go deep sea fishing with a group of friends to relax. On 6 May 1948, they chartered a yacht and went out to fish along the Florida Keys - in one of the corners of the famed Bermuda Triangle. They never returned. Subsequent searches turned up no trace of the yacht, Al Snider, or his friends.
I seem to remember it being a skiff that turned up empty days later. Rumors of foul play, etc.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 3:15:53 PM
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Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.
Willy says casino in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.
Makes me wonder ? " AP is dead, a phantasm, an illusion "
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.
Willy says casino in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.
Makes me wonder ? " AP is dead, a phantasm, an illusion "
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 3:22:41 PM
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Perhaps it has something to do with the dealer's chip tray... you know.... her rack!Quote: bigfoot66I have buddies that will go to a casino with me twice a year and they always seem to end up at a single deck 6:5 table.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:25:30 PM
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It was No-Neck Louis from Cleveland who disappeared him.Quote: BuzzardForget the jockey's name, but he disappeared in Everglades while fishing. SIGH
November 19th, 2012 at 3:29:36 PM
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The Bermuda Triangle doesn't even exist. Please note: I reserve the right to alter my response if I ever start selling subscriptions to a newsletter about the Bermuda Triangle.Quote: Buzzardin one of the corners of the famed Bermuda Triangle.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:33:32 PM
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STENDEC STENDEC STENDEC
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 6:37:09 PM
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Quote: MakingBookI'm with Buzz. The only time you cut a guy off is when they run out of money and can't pay when they lose.
If a bookie identifies a winning player, they can/will use that information to their advantage.
It's hard to use the info. The good players are just getting the money in ahead of the line move. By the time the action is booked, it's too late. The line moves and the opportunity disappears very quickly. I've seen it happen.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:10:03 PM
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Send them wise guys to me. Losers are losers. Bookies never have trouble paying the rent.
I am talking about real info, not just some loser on a streak.
I am talking about real info, not just some loser on a streak.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 7:14:03 PM
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Now you're starting to sound like PaiGowDan :) No APs out there, right?
November 19th, 2012 at 7:16:28 PM
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Not unless they have enough money to move the line. I have known lots of guys who say they kill baseball, nfl, etc.
Some even try and post their picks here as proof. They don't stay long.
I will agree with Dan on one thing. Most who say there are AP are full of shit.
But they do exist !
Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.
Willy says casino in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.
Some even try and post their picks here as proof. They don't stay long.
I will agree with Dan on one thing. Most who say there are AP are full of shit.
But they do exist !
Willy Allison is a casino game protection consultant and founder of World Game Protection Inc, a company that provides casino education and consulting services.
Willy started his casino career as a trainee surveillance operator in Australia 25 years ago. His career progressed into various surveillance management roles in Australia, Asia, South America and the U.S.A.
In 2006 he created the World Game Protection Conference (WGPC), the world's first annual conference & expo dedicated to casino surveillance & game protection.
Willy published a monthly online newsletter "The Catwalk" from 2005-2012 and has written for other major casino publications.
Willy says casino in the US lose more annually to AP players than all cheating combined.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
November 19th, 2012 at 7:34:03 PM
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Quote: BuzzardNot unless they have enough money to move the line.
I never said that they didn't have enough money to move the line :) The hardest part is getting the action down. Most books have ridiculously low limits, because they know that they are vulnerable. Want to put down $100k per hand on baccarat? No problem, sir. May we get you a drink / a suite / your airfare / a limo / some food / some women as well? Want to put down $100k on a few NFL games? Good f'n luck.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:44:42 PM
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A couple times per year, I would pick up players that were "cut off" by scared bookies.
Some bookmakers don't have the bankroll to withstand a guy that gets lucky for 3 or 4 weeks.
Whenever these guys would come to me, I would always feel like I hit the lottery.
I made lots of cash from these types. Makes me wish I wasn't retired.
But I did have one new guy that crushed me for about $15k over a couple months.
He was pretty sharp. Most other players are sharp as a basketball
Some bookmakers don't have the bankroll to withstand a guy that gets lucky for 3 or 4 weeks.
Whenever these guys would come to me, I would always feel like I hit the lottery.
I made lots of cash from these types. Makes me wish I wasn't retired.
But I did have one new guy that crushed me for about $15k over a couple months.
He was pretty sharp. Most other players are sharp as a basketball
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
November 19th, 2012 at 7:55:14 PM
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Quote: MakingBookMost other players are sharp as a basketball
Hey! I'm at least as sharp as a football :)
November 19th, 2012 at 7:59:24 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWant to put down $100k on a few NFL games? Good f'n luck.
Cantor Gaming will take $100,000 bets on any NFL game. They have about 7-8 locations in Vegas.
But you are correct, getting down can be difficult/impossible at most other places.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
November 19th, 2012 at 8:02:58 PM
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Quote: MakingBookCantor Gaming will take $100,000 bets on any NFL game. They have about 7-8 locations in Vegas.
But you are correct, getting down can be difficult/impossible at most other places.
Not from just anyone, they won't. It is possible to get cut off. They are the best place in Vegas to get down big action, though, for sure.
November 19th, 2012 at 8:19:28 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot from just anyone, they won't. It is possible to get cut off. They are the best place in Vegas to get down big action, though, for sure.
They wouldn't cut me off. My picks suck!
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
