california blackjack player banking how does it work?

I am a poker player. I have no real interest in playing bj as a player, but when I found out that you were allowed to bank the table I was intrigued. I am a very serious poker player, so obviously I have an understanding of odds, but really aside from that have no idea of bj strategy. I would like someone to either explain as though I was completely new to everything blackjack how playerbanking works, or provide a link that is very comprehensive for the person who doesnt want to study the game of blackjack, only the rules of player banking in california. if you have any specifics on the LA casinos that would be helpful. I do realize that some basic strategy specifics and info on pair bonuses would be nice and I will ask those questions later, for now just the basics on rules of banking tables in california. Thanks so much in advance.

I'm an AP and live in California and I'd like to know about this too.

I've never heard of such a thing, though I am from New York I am curious to know if it exists and what the catch is.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

I've never heard of such a thing, though I am from New York I am curious to know if it exists and what the catch is.

You have to paya couple bucks to bank and the bank rotates so you will be playing some hands as a player at some point. Different clubs have different rules but if you watch the tables and try to find a table full of players who are making a lot of bad plays then sit there and find out how to play the minimum number of hands as a player in order to be entitled to bank. Just try sitting at a BJ table at the card room, watch and ask the banker/dealer questions. They wont mind explaining it to you.

Here is a link to an older article on the blackjackforum.com site.

In non-tribal card rooms, I think the player banking option rotates every two hands. You can also co-bank with the house if you don't have the bankroll, but there is a minimum amount you need to cover.

I'm not sure about the other casinos in California, but at Hollywood Park Casino in Inglewood (near LAX) players can choose to bank the table. I think there is a restriction that the player can only bank the table two hands in a row, or something like that. This was part of the deal made when the "poker rooms" were allowed to offer "California games."

The casino itself doesn't really "bank" the games. A "corporation" banks the games and the casino takes a fee (usually $1 per hand) from each player to play.

What the public doesn't know is that the so-called "corporation" is actually another casino company that made a cross-deal.

I'm not sure, but I think, the corporation at Hollywood Park is actually the Commerce Casino company... and at Commerce, the casino's "bank" is actually Hollywood Park.

The rules for being the banker are actually quite favorable because you don't have to bank the entire table. You can say up-front how much you want to bank, and if there are bets over and above the amount you want to bank then the "corporation" covers the rest.

I've never done it, and this is info I just gleaned from others. I do not play the "California games," but just poker at Hollywood Park and Commerce.

Quote: bigfoot66

You have to paya couple bucks to bank and the bank rotates so you will be playing some hands as a player at some point. Different clubs have different rules but if you watch the tables and try to find a table full of players who are making a lot of bad plays then sit there and find out how to play the minimum number of hands as a player in order to be entitled to bank. Just try sitting at a BJ table at the card room, watch and ask the banker/dealer questions. They wont mind explaining it to you.

It is a flat commission or is it based on total action on the hand, win/loss, etc?

I would think the best strategy would be to find the table with the heaviest action (assuming you have the bankroll). You make 4x the EV off a $100 player vs. a $25 player, which will likely exceed the additional EV from bad play by the $25 player.

As I understand it, it is a flat amount for each position. Also, the player banker is not responsible for the "bonus" bet payouts for premium hands (suited blackjack, three sevens, etc.).

This wackiness all stems from California requiring all table games to be parimutual. It is illegal to play against the house.

Quote: Ayecarumba

As I understand it, it is a flat amount for each position. Also, the player banker is not responsible for the "bonus" bet payouts for premium hands (suited blackjack, three sevens, etc.).

This wackiness all stems from California requiring all table games to be parimutual. It is illegal to play against the house.

Except for tribal casinos right?

Table games in California tribal casinos are supposed to be parimutual too. The only house vs. player games allowed are class III slot/vp machines.

Here is a link to a more up to date article on banking California table games.


Edit: Many tribal casinos in California have been allowed to offer house banked card games if they have had their compact with the Governor renewed since 1999.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Table games in California tribal casinos are supposed to be parimutual too. The only house vs. player games allowed are class III slot/vp machines.

Here is a link to a more up to date article on banking California table games.

There's definitely not a corporate player - or an ante - at most tribal casinos in CA. I wonder how the house separates their money from the corporation's money. Maybe the games are not house-dealt, and the whole pit is rented to the corporate entity?

cool, I play there as well. I asked the floor man early this morning and he basically explained the same thing. The only thing I don't understand is how it is decided where the action button is placed. because if you do not put up the whole amount in play then you can only win or lose as much as is available from the action button clockwise. at least that is what I understand. Also if nobody else wants bank, it was my understanding that you could bank more than twice in a row, however they did mention the twice in a row thing like you did and the guy had a heavy accent. When I have a little more money I am willing to research this with i will just have to do it. plus if I have to be a player I better bone up on my bj strategy. If you werent there this morning early there was an amazing $100 table with like 3k on it cause this maniac kept re-buying. It was lovely. I didnt walk away with the lions share but did pretty good for that level.

Quote: rdw4potus

There's definitely not a corporate player - or an ante - at most tribal casinos in CA. I wonder how the house separates their money from the corporation's money. Maybe the games are not house-dealt, and the whole pit is rented to the corporate entity?

The Corporation has their own large stack of chips in front of them which they use to pay out winners and collect from losers. A large marker button says "Maximumn $50,000" referring to the amount they can cover.

I understand that the Casino also charges the Corporation a table rental fee in addition to the $3 per hand fee they charge.

A couple of weeks ago at the Bicycle Casino I saw a middle-aged Asian gentlman sitting at a BJ table by himself with an entire rack of white chips = $10,000. He had the Corporation play 3 or 4 seats each hand for $200 each. It looked like he was doing quite well. I asked the dealer at my table about this and he mentioned that the same guy was in earlier that morning and had lost $10,000.

Quote: paisiello

The Corporation has their own large stack of chips in front of them which they use to pay out winners and collect from losers. A large marker button says "Maximumn $50,000" referring to the amount they can cover.

I understand that the Casino also charges the Corporation a table rental fee in addition to the $3 per hand fee they charge.

A couple of weeks ago at the Bicycle Casino I saw a middle-aged Asian gentlman sitting at a BJ table by himself with an entire rack of white chips = $10,000. He had the Corporation play 3 or 4 seats each hand for $200 each. It looked like he was doing quite well. I asked the dealer at my table about this and he mentioned that the same guy was in earlier that morning and had lost $10,000.

Oh, no doubt that's how it looks at Bicycle and the other card clubs. But if Morongo and San Manuel are also supposed to be corporation banked, how does that work? there is no corporate player at their tables.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The rules for being the banker are actually quite favorable because you don't have to bank the entire table. You can say up-front how much you want to bank, and if there are bets over and above the amount you want to bank then the "corporation" covers the rest.

So you can just say, "I will bank up to $100" ? Of course then a partner sneaks in, bets $100 per hand - and you won't need to pay his double downs.

Quote: rdw4potus

Oh, no doubt that's how it looks at Bicycle and the other card clubs. But if Morongo and San Manuel are also supposed to be corporation banked, how does that work? there is no corporate player at their tables.

You are right. 61 tribes renegotiated their compacts with the Governor in 1999, and gained approval for house banked table games. The compacts were then ratified at various times over the next several years.

Quote: MangoJ

So you can just say, "I will bank up to $100" ? Of course then a partner sneaks in, bets $100 per hand - and you won't need to pay his double downs.

You could... but he house will charge you $2 or $3 to bank, and your buddy has to pay $1 to play, so they still make money.

Quote: winmonkeyspit3

It is a flat commission or is it based on total action on the hand, win/loss, etc?

I would think the best strategy would be to find the table with the heaviest action (assuming you have the bankroll). You make 4x the EV off a $100 player vs. a $25 player, which will likely exceed the additional EV from bad play by the $25 player.

It depends on the casino. At Oceans 11 in Oceanside the banker pays $2 every turn regardless of action. I would sometimes go up and play $10 or $15 at an empty table and ask the corporate banker why they would pay $2 for the opportunity to win $25 only, it cant be positive EV. They just smile and say good luck.
At the Lake Elsinore casino, home of the red flex bet https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/8/#redflex if I show up and play $10 at an empty table its not so bad, they only pay I think 50 cents for every $50 or $100 in action at the table before the deal.

Quote: Ayecarumba

As I understand it, it is a flat amount for each position. Also, the player banker is not responsible for the "bonus" bet payouts for premium hands (suited blackjack, three sevens, etc.).

This wackiness all stems from California requiring all table games to be parimutual. It is illegal to play against the house.

The games are not parimutual per say. They pretend it is a poker game where the house just takes a rake and facilitates the action.

Quote: bigfoot66

The games are not parimutual per say. They pretend it is a poker game where the house just takes a rake and facilitates the action.

"Technically" they are parimutuel. The "Corporate" Player/banker is, "technically" a third party, (although one with extremely deep pockets) leaving the card room operator free to deal the cards, and collect commissions, with no interest in the winner/loser of the game.

Quote: Ayecarumba

You could... but he house will charge you $2 or $3 to bank, and your buddy has to pay $1 to play, so they still make money.

With a mutual bankroll between player and banker, you could double down much more hands ....

Quote: Ayecarumba

"Technically" they are parimutuel. The "Corporate" Player/banker is, "technically" a third party, (although one with extremely deep pockets) leaving the card room operator free to deal the cards, and collect commissions, with no interest in the winner/loser of the game.

I thought that parimutuel meant that all player funds are put into a pool in order to pay odds. If texas holdem is primutual then the CA blackjack games certainly are as well.

Quote: MangoJ

With a mutual bankroll between player and banker, you could double down much more hands ....

You could. However, the Corporate banker could also place bets against the player banker, and possibly take all the players action before the partners hand(s) got paid either way. The first position to get paid (aka, "action" hand) is randomly assigned, and the corporate banker has deep pockets and probably instructions to break the player-banker. The house doesn't care since they get a commission every single hand.

Quote: bigfoot66

I thought that parimutuel meant that all player funds are put into a pool in order to pay odds. If texas holdem is primutual then the CA blackjack games certainly are as well.

The cardroom games are "Player Banked". In other words, you cannot lose more than you wagered, even as the bank. It also means that you cannot win more as the bank than what is wagered by the other players. (if the other players wagers exceed your bankroll when you play as the "banker", the corporate player covers the difference.)

I'm not certain about this part, but as I understand it, the entity (player, or corporate) who puts up the majority of the bank gets paid first, (but may not have to pay out first). Again, I am not certain of this procedure, and it may vary from card room to card room.

The house has no interest in who wins or loses since they make their money from commissions on every wager.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I'm not certain about this part, but as I understand it, the entity (player, or corporate) who puts up the majority of the bank gets paid first, (but may not have to pay out first). Again, I am not certain of this procedure, and it may vary from card room to card room.

The house has no interest in who wins or loses since they make their money from commissions on every wager.

I understand, I have played these games many times as both player and banker. They usually use some card, say, the dealers down card, can count out that many spaces from the position where the bank button is and that is the first hand to recieve action, and it goes around the table from there. If a player banks less than the full amount the corporation covers any action beyond the banks wager.

Quote: bigfoot66

If a player banks less than the full amount the corporation covers any action beyond the banks wager.

What is your understanding of the procedure for paying winners, and dividing the losing wagers, when there is a corporate cover of a player banking?

In California the rules have to be published here at http://oag.ca.gov/gambling/cardroomlist

Interesting reading.

Please contact me at if you have been personally banned, barred, asked to leave the Commerce Casino because you "tried" to be a player banker and were kicked out. If you know of someone else who has been banned or barred, please have them contact me as well. I was personally banned for player banking baccarat at the Commerce Casino.
I am in the process of filing a class action lawsuit in conjuction with members of the California Indian Tribal Council. The Commerce Casinos consistent habit of banning and barring players/customers who player bank baccarat, blackjack and other games is illegal.
I already have a dozen people who have contacted me and confirmed that they have been banned from the Commerce Casino for specifically player banking baccarat, blackjack and other games. The higher the number of people I have, the better case we have.
Anyone familiar with player banking knows that the Commerce Casino cannot ban customers who player bank. They can ban you for almost any other reason (fighting, drinking, etc), but players are protected by the D.O.J.
This post applies specifically to the Commerce Casino in Los Angeles, CA but will be applicable to other Card rooms as well. California State Law (protected by the Department of Justice) states that any individual can act as a player banker inside the Commerce casino for California card games such as Baccarat, Blackjack, Paigow, Ultimate Texas Holdem, Three Card Poker, Crazy Poker and other games. There may be new games or new versions of games by the the time you read this post.
It is illegal for the Commerce Casino to directly profit from players/gamblers in the games listed above. This is different from Las Vegas Casinos and Indian Tribal Casinos who payout out all winnings and losses directly to the player.
A third party corporation sits at every California game table and pays a collection every hand for the right to collect all winnings and payout all losses to the players who bet. The Commerce casino makes money from this collection on every hand. The collection could range from $2-$15 per hand and up. After every two hands the dealer offers every other player sitting at the table to have this same option: payout the winnings and collect the losses with their own personal money. I usually sit down to bank with $10,000-$30,000 personally, but an individual can player bank with the table minimum. Obviously if a player bets a $500 and wins and the player banker can't pay them, the player is upset, but the player banker still has this right to "bank" that hand.
I was making very good money before I was banned. The casino and third party corporation don't want any competition. However, if enough of us come together in this lawsuit, we will be able to take legal action and change these habits of banning players for "trying" to bank California Table Games.