Question About Counting System

Hello, new to this forum. Anyway, I saw on YouTube there was an account by someone named John Stathis talking (angrily) about how flawed the Hi/Lo system. He had a lot of videos showing how a card counting system works, which is called JSTAT. I have never heard of this and I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about it. If I remember correctly, in it ten-value cards are -2, everything else is +1, while Aces are only side counted. Why exactly is this better??

First of all, there is no "unflawed" card counting system which yields mathematically perfect play.

There is always a tradeoff between "playing efficiency" (how well are your decisions during play), "betting efficiency" (how well are your betting decisions), "insurance efficiency" (how well do you play insurance bets) and of course the "complexity" (how many different card values, how many side counts) of the counting system.

An Ace side count will obviously give you perfect insurance efficiency, but it is as it is - you need to remember an additional number, and make more calculations steps for index play.

Generaly, with a more complex system you get better efficiencies, but you need to apply more complex counting rules, index tables etc.
If that's okay for you, just use a more complex system. But you need to tradeoff the additional monetary gain with possible counting errors due to speed issues, fatique. Can you naturally keep up a conversation while summing a 4 level count, adjust 3 side counts, while you just glance at the cards ?

Quote: MangoJ

First of all, there is no "unflawed" card counting system which yields mathematically perfect play.

Unless you're Rain Man, who can keep track of every single card.

Quote: FreddyMac

Hello, new to this forum. Anyway, I saw on YouTube there was an account by someone named John Stathis talking (angrily) about how flawed the Hi/Lo system. He had a lot of videos showing how a card counting system works, which is called JSTAT. I have never heard of this and I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about it. If I remember correctly, in it ten-value cards are -2, everything else is +1, while Aces are only side counted. Why exactly is this better??

I can't see it as better. I use a -2, -1, +1, +2, +3 with an ace side count.

And by the way, I find it easy it hold a conversation while doing so. But I guess that is what 35 + counting years will do for you.

Yes, JStat seems to have a bug up his a**. He frequently make statements about how hi-lo is a scam and doesn't work. I say frequently because he used to be pushing his agenda on many different blackjack and gambling message board communities, but because of his preposterous claims which can not be back up by math, and the tone, insistence and frequency that he would make these claims, he has been banned by most sites. One of his favorite antics is to point out a error that was made in one of the early books (maybe 'beat the dealer', I can't remember), but this minor flaw or error, just changes the math slightly, it doesn't render the whole concept incorrect as JStat likes to claim.

One thing to note about John is that he is not a professional blackjack player....he is a mailman. lol Not that there is anything wrong with that (seinfeld).

I play blackjack for a living (mid-level stakes), and I use Hi-lo. I did experiment with a higher level 2 count for a period of 18 months before reverting back to hi-lo. Hi-lo is more than adequate. There are many profession players or players that seriously supplement their incomes that use it. Although count is often debated in the blackjack community, I personally, am off the belief that what count you choose to use is one of the least important decisions you make, as long as you play it well. I also am in the camp of keeping it simple as there are many other aspects that require a card counters attention while at the table, and other opportunities that will arise, if you aren't to engrossed in your counting exercise to notice them.

deleted

Here's a chart of the efficiency of each system:

http://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/resources/card-counting-systems/

Also to echo other member's posts HiLo is still probably the best since it's less likely to make mistakes.

Wow, thanks everyone for the great responses.

@MangoJ That makes a lot of sense. I definitely see what you're saying.

@Kellynbnf Sometimes I wish I had the ability of Rain Man, then I watched that clip and realized I don't want to act like that :P

@duffytootx What system is that called?

@kewlj Yes, he did point to an error in a book in the video I saw! Wow, I never knew all that, thank you so much. I was looking some stuff up and I could not find too much about him, especially since I am so new to all this. I can be very gullible sometimes, I guess. I should have realized something was up when I saw his count system was pretty much named after himself.

@Ibeatyouraces Why a different count for those types of games?

@BigJer Thank you, that is very useful to understand what MangoJ was saying.

deleted

JSTAT is a member of this forum. Perhaps he will comment.

Quote: 1BB

JSTAT is a member of this forum. Perhaps he will comment.

The OP viewed my YouTube videos http://www.youtube.com/user/Moviemakerjjcasino and thank him for that. He referred to the "Blackjack High-Low Card Count Shattered" video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLtT8fzQsTc which contained Julian Braun's admission he made a mistake in developing the High-Low Count in the 1966 edition of Ed Thorp's "Beat The Dealer". Braun said in his 1980 book "How to Play Winning Blackjack", "Shortly after the second edition of Thorp's Beat The Dealer appeared I realized I had made a slight error in developing the system...However, in the depleted decks no 7's, 8's, or 9's were removed; the analysis was made for overly 7, 8, 9 rich decks". A major mistake IMO. I decided to read his words in the video. Might have used too much "Hollywood" expressing my displeasure towards Braun's words, for that, I apologize.

I am not the person Kewlj described and am not banned from most gambling forums. I am a member in good standing in most gambling forums. My card counting methods at blackjack and EZ Baccarat use sound mathematics. I accepted an early retirement offer from the USPS, an honorable profession, a few years ago. Made good money counting cards in the '90s as supplemental income.

I enjoy the Wizard's forum and have gained much here.

deleted

I'm not sure the best way to word this...Is JSTAT more "accurate" than High-Low?

Edit: I guess what I should be asking is, how does it compare to High-Low's playing efficiency, betting efficiency, and insurance efficiency?

Quote: FreddyMac

I'm not sure the best way to word this...Is JSTAT more "accurate" than High-Low?

I was a single deck specialist in the '90s and know for a fact that utilizing perfect insurance and blackjack frequency prediction from the JSTAT Count (2-9=+1, 10-K=-2, aces are side counted) is superior to the hi-lo count. The hi-lo count works fine with 6/8 deck shoes, but it lacks strength at handheld games, due to its counting the aces as high cards for insurance purposes. Accurate insurance betting is vital at single deck blackjack.

Quote: JSTAT

The hi-lo count works fine with 6/8 deck shoes, but it lacks strength at handheld games, due to its counting the aces as high cards for insurance purposes. Accurate insurance betting is vital at single deck blackjack.

This is a fair statement, JSTAT. I guess, if you are playing exclusively good, single deck games, there is some advantage to a stronger count than hi-lo. But it's kind of hard to play exclusively good single or even double deck games. There just aren't that many around and the ones that are still around are usually pretty strongly 'protected'. Almost anyone that makes a living from BJ play, has to branch out to a variety of games.

It seems you have mellowed in both tone and substance from when I first encountered you, on BJinfo. At the time, if you remember, you continued to spout that hi-lo was a scam actually perpetrated by the casino industry. lol I think THAT is what many folks, especially those of us that were and still are using hi-lo successfully, objected to. It's ok to have a preference in count and even point out what you think are the advantages. Those debates actually are quite common in the BJ community. But to state that hi-lo was a scam and did not work, as you were at the time, made no sense.

Anyway as we discussed last year, on another site, even though I personally had a problem with your statements at the time, I did object to your banning from the site, both publicly and in private to the owner.

I did not mean to imply that a career in the postal service was not an honorable career. (although there have been a number of 'incidents' with postal employees or former postal employees...lol.)

Good to see you still alive and well, and hope your JSTAT count is treating you well. :)

Now all these 'niceties' aside, I still recommend Hi-lo for any players starting out. It's more than adequate. I won't argue that their is some slight advantage to playing stronger counts especially in certain situations. Simulations bear this out. Especially if you are cherry-picking games and conditions as proponents of different counts often do. But when you leave the world of simulation and play in the real world, with a variety of conditions and games, these slight advantages often disappear or shrink to next to nothing. As I said, earlier, not all, but many professional players use hi-lo. That should speak volumes. Again, there are more important aspects to playing a strong game than what count you use. And there are better ways to improve your game and opportunities to be had, than playing a stronger count. What count a player chooses and uses is really not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Several long-time players such as Don Schlesinger, have told me that although they still use a higher level count that they learned many years ago (in Don's case, Revere Point Count), if they had it to do over again, they would play a level one count like hi-lo or K-O.

Quote: BigJer

Here's a chart of the efficiency of each system:

http://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/resources/card-counting-systems/

Also to echo other member's posts HiLo is still probably the best since it's less likely to make mistakes.

Here's another comparison list that adds in several more counting systems.