The house not letting someone buy in
I have formed the impression that as part of rating one's play, the supervisor (or box man at craps) tries to note how much is colored up at the end of a session compared to the total buy in. This would give them an estimate of the player's win or drop without having to track transactions at the cage (other than if it's someone who is playing with enough dough to have a CTR issued). This would be additional info on top of rating your average wager and duration of play, and tracking individual's play would have a different importance than just knowing where the chips are.
Can anyone tell me whether this impression is correct? If so, a player who pockets chips and also buys in for more would be distorting the tracking of win/drop, and that could be the reason for the incident in the original question.
Quote: DocIf so, a player who pockets chips and also buys in for more would be distorting the tracking of win/drop, and that could be the reason for the incident in the original question.
The boss knows how much is in the bank and how much is in play. If you are pocketing more than a couple of nickels, they are going to know. Remember, whether you win or lose, the chips will either be in the bank or in front of the players. If the total value changes, someone has either left the game with chips (a winner, hopefully) or has brought chips from another game, or is putting them someplace else. The boss will be able to tell which of the three it is.
I have heard some say to pocket chips as you play to make it look as if your loss is larger or your win not quite as big; I hadn't heard of anyone making an issue of it like in this case. I have heard that dealers will notice if you do too much of it or do it too obviously (which means an amount that they think you took off the table will likely be added to the info; this could be good or bad).
The other case is that I always pocket a $1 chip as a souvenir the first time I play in a casino. At home I just add it to my collection. Yes, I am too cheap to collect anything except $1 chips, and no, I don't focus on any type of specialty or "collector" chips, just one memento from each casino. It's a fun side hobby to the gambling.
Quote: DocFor my own, low-roller play, there are only two situations in which I may move chips out of sight before leaving the table. First, if I am having a particularly good session, I may take the equivalent of my buy-in out of play so that I am "playing with house money" for the rest of the session. I might put this in a separate pile on the table or in the rack, or I might actually put it in my pocket to remind myself not to put it back in play. I suspect a number of players may handle good sessions in a similar manner.
The other case is that I always pocket a $1 chip as a souvenir the first time I play in a casino. At home I just add it to my collection. Yes, I am too cheap to collect anything except $1 chips, and no, I don't focus on any type of specialty or "collector" chips, just one memento from each casino. It's a fun side hobby to the gambling.
As I reread my post, I didn't want to suggest that you aren't ALLOWED to do either of the above things, just that it is usually noticed by a dealer and/or boss. If you were pocketing blacks and then asking to buy in for more, it very well could be denied.
Quote: RonC
I have heard some say to pocket chips as you play to make it look as if your loss is larger or your win not quite as big; I hadn't heard of anyone making an issue of it like in this case. I have heard that dealers will notice if you do too much of it or do it too obviously (which means an amount that they think you took off the table will likely be added to the info; this could be good or bad).
"Casino Player" had an article about this a few months back. It is called "ratholing." The article said casinos didn't like it becaues it foils their ability to foil counters or worse yet cheaters. Remember, the best way to find cheaters is look for winners. So if you are ratholing it makes it harder for the casino to see you are winning.
At most poker rooms ratholing is reason to get booted. For table games it seemed to say they would give you heat but not a reason for ejection. And yes, it also said people do it to improve their comps.
I'm suprised they wouldn't let the person buy in. I thought you could just say, "money plays" in this situation.
Personally, I frown upon rat-holing chips, as well as card pulling in video poker, and don't do it on principle. I think is deceptive, and not fair play. If done to exploit a loss rebate, I would call it cheating (morally, but not legally).
Regarding the situation in question, maybe they were questioning him why he was doubling with cash, when they knew he had chips in his pocket. Whatever the details, I wouldn't blame the casino for making the player feel unwelcome if they felt he was trying to trick them by rat-holing chips.
Not because you're hiding money from the casino, but because you're pocketing winnings - money that used to belong to other players.Quote: AZDuffmanAt most poker rooms ratholing is reason to get booted.
As long as you're sitting there, the other players have a right to be able to win it back, so it has to stay in play.
Quote: WizardI frown upon...card pulling in video poker, and don't do it on principle. I think is deceptive, and not fair play. If done to exploit a loss rebate, I would call it cheating (morally, but not legally).
What is card pulling, how do you do it and how is it like cheating? I don't play vp, I have no idea what this is.
I have never seen an additional buy in refused, but I have refused access to a marker when a player has chips stashed.
Quote: WizardCard pulling in video poker is also often done when dealt four to a royal. A motive to do this, besides the appearance to the casino that you're a loser, is showing a bigger than actual loss on a profit/loss statement for tax purposes.
So casinos actually look at your skill level on VP? I was under the impression you mostly earned comps based on credits played. I guess I am wrong.
As to P&L, don't you have to fill out the W2G anyways?
But it would be VERY easy to program the slot machines to continue to record action to the last card inserted - at least until the machine was cashed out. I would be surprised to learn that a casino is NOT doing just that.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the system were designed to specifically recognize and record card-pulling, and comp you less. After all, if they recognize an activity designed to 'beat the system', they'll just program the system to beat you back!
Quote: DJTeddyBearInteresting.
But it would be VERY easy to program the slot machines to continue to record action to the last card inserted - at least until the machine was cashed out. I would be surprised to learn that a casino is NOT doing just that.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the system were designed to specifically recognize and record card-pulling, and comp you less. After all, if they recognize an activity designed to 'beat the system', they'll just program the system to beat you back!
Good point, but I've also had stupid malfunctions with the readers (I think the Wizard spoke of them too) so they probably don't want to get punitive with them when an error could seriously hurt the player (Especially when they are generating W/L statements for tax purposes). But I would think they could continue the action on THAT hand, spin, or deal to its conclusion. I always figured it did that anyway.
Quote: DocI guess this is more a side question than offering input toward an answer to the original question.
I have formed the impression that as part of rating one's play, the supervisor (or box man at craps) tries to note how much is colored up at the end of a session compared to the total buy in. This would give them an estimate of the player's win or drop without having to track transactions at the cage (other than if it's someone who is playing with enough dough to have a CTR issued). This would be additional info on top of rating your average wager and duration of play, and tracking individual's play would have a different importance than just knowing where the chips are.
Can anyone tell me whether this impression is correct? If so, a player who pockets chips and also buys in for more would be distorting the tracking of win/drop, and that could be the reason for the incident in the original question.
I am positive they try and track win/loss too, but I also know their numbers can get WAY OFF, at least on the craps tables. I deposit front money with the cage, then take a marker at the craps table. When I get done, I will color up, so they SHOULD know how much I made/lost. I used to pull chips off the table, but what's the point? My last trip I was up 1g at the end, but when I visited with my host to get my spending comp'd, he showed me being up over 8g. I have no clue how they got so far off. I wish they had been right.
Quote: AZDuffman
So casinos actually look at your skill level on VP? I was under the impression you mostly earned comps based on credits played. I guess I am wrong.
As to P&L, don't you have to fill out the W2G anyways?
At high levels, they look at skill level in every game. It is good business to get the biggest losers, whether actual or theoretical, through the door. At low levels, they tend to not give it the personal touch, and just go by points. If you want to know how casinos really think, I highly recommend Whale Hunt in the Desert.
W2G forms only show winnings. If you want to claim offsetting losses, you'll need evidence, and some gamblers use end of the year profit/loss statements, although the IRS knows these are very subject to error, but are better than nothing.
I've heard card pulling no longer works at some casinos. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you pull your card, and the display says "active session in progress" or something like that, then it will attribute all play to the last card entered, until the cash out button is hit. I've also heard that some readers now record mid-hand card pulling, and players have been punished for doing so.
Quote: cclub79
Good point, but I've also had stupid malfunctions with the readers (I think the Wizard spoke of them too) so they probably don't want to get punitive with them when an error could seriously hurt the player (Especially when they are generating W/L statements for tax purposes).
Those Win/Loss statements are not really legitimate Tax documents, are they? I don't see how they could be, as they are not at all accurate. Why should I have to spend hours trying to prove the numbers are wrong? I have only seen 1 accurate statement in my Win/Loss. I stopped in Harrah's Vegas as we were walking down the strip, and decided to buy in for $100. Stupid move, might just as well hand the hundred to the dealer and keep walking. Oh wait, that is about how it went. Anyway, my win/loss statement had me down for (100) at Harrah's, which was spot on.
And it is not just the amounts I contest. They have shown me with wins, when I actually had losses, and even more incredible, they have shown me with a loss, when I have had a nice win.
Let's say I hit the symbols that trigger free spins and pull my card before starting the spins. On almost every machine I've ever seen, a message pops up that says 'card session in progress' or something like that.
I just found one bank of machines that do not display this message.
Is this machine letting me get away with dodging the win? How would I verify?
One other interesting feature on this bank is it will not allow the use of free play. Don't know if that is relevant or not. Also, I think this is a leased machine.
Quote: cclub79I admit I'd done the card pulling a few times on Video Blackjack (a long time ago). You pull your player's card out of the reader on your initial hand if it has a good expected value. Let's say you get dealt 3 Aces on VP. You know you are going to win on that hand, so you pull your card out, draw your cards, win, and then that win is not credited to your card. If you leave it in on bad hands, and pull it out on good ones, then it will appear that you lost a lot and barely won at all. This can affect your comps. Watch a bank of Wheel of Fortune Slots. I always see players yank their card quick at the instant they earn a spin, so it will not be credited. Then they can go complain and say "I played all day and didn't get one spin! Can't you give me a room?!?"
I remember a poster on this very website saying something like,"I pull out my Player's Club card when I get bonuses, so that if I won big money like a jackpot during the bonus I can avoid getting a W2G form and not have to pay taxes."
I got the last quote wrong. I knew something was off with that quote, but I was posting by memory. I visited that thread and the poster actually said something like,"If I pull my card before the bonus can I make it look like I LOST money instead since the Player's Club card wouldn't register the bonus win?
Quote: NathanI remember a poster on this very website saying something like,"I pull out my Player's Club card when I get bonuses, so that if I won big money like a jackpot during the bonus I can avoid getting a W2G form and not have to pay taxes."
Quote: NathanI remember a poster on this very website saying something like,"I pull out my Player's Club card when I get bonuses, so that if I won big money like a jackpot during the bonus I can avoid getting a W2G form and not have to pay taxes."
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Quote: prozemaOld thread back from the dead.... But I have a general question about card pulling and it seemed relevant to this conversation.
Let's say I hit the symbols that trigger free spins and pull my card before starting the spins. On almost every machine I've ever seen, a message pops up that says 'card session in progress' or something like that.
I just found one bank of machines that do not display this message.
Is this machine letting me get away with dodging the win? How would I verify?
One other interesting feature on this bank is it will not allow the use of free play. Don't know if that is relevant or not. Also, I think this is a leased machine.
What is you are trying to do?
You cant dodge jackpot wins as you need to show ID to get paid
If you are using another persons players card the wager and outcome most likely are still recorded on that card but you would still be the one credited with the jackpot for tax purposes
So if you can clarify what it is you are trying to avoid maybe I can give a more definitive answer
Quote: billryanWhen you repeat stupid things you have heard others say, you run the risk of the statements being attributed to you.
I knew something sounded stupid about the last part of that quote, so I visited the thread and turns out I actually got the quote wrong. I was posting it by memory and although he did talk about pulling his Player's Club card before a bonus he was actually talking about making it look more like he LOST money since he assumed the card couldn't possibly know he won big on the bonus since he pulled it out before the bonus started.
Quote: darkoz
If you are using another persons players card the wager and outcome most likely are still recorded on that card but you would still be the one credited with the jackpot for tax purposes
You got me. This is exactly what I am doing.
You think the card is recording the win even though the machine does not say 'card session in progress' through the bonus like every other machine in the joint?
Quote: NathanI knew something sounded stupid about the last part of that quote, so I visited the thread and turns out I actually got the quote wrong. I was posting it by memory and although he did talk about pulling his Player's Club card before a bonus he was actually talking about making it look more like he LOST money since he assumed the card couldn't possibly know he won big on the bonus since he pulled it out before the bonus started.
Truthfully everything you say has the same flaw in it you either remember wrong or had details wrong THINK ABOUT IT
Quote: Observer1Truthfully everything you say has the same flaw in it you either remember wrong or had details wrong THINK ABOUT IT
In hindsight, I should have visited the thread before posting the first time. Would have been a lot better.
Also WHO WANTS TO see six paragraphs on your signature line . It’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen on here
Quote: Observer1Just like the promo you spoke about which wasn’t accurate either
Also WHO WANTS TO see six paragraphs on your signature line . It’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen on here
Jokes on you. I edited my signature by about half!
Quote: Observer1Still just as stupid
Not really. I made it clear that I am a woman who chose the name Nathan because I like the name Nathaniel and Nathan is a nickname of Nathaniel. The slot telling a guy who lost money on a bet that he got a big win was pure stupidity and the Nintendo cartridge being so much better than the console was something my friends' older sister told us when we were kids.
Quote: prozemaWelcome back WON.
Very interesting that Observer has already been banned the same day he joined. ;)
