Card Counting

I realize this is a topic that has been beaten to death on here, but I am new to the site, and relatively new to blackjack. That's means I've been playing for a long time, using the basic statistics, for various shoe counts or pitch games.

I had posted here about a week ago and minutes later my computer got a very bad virus so this is my first chance back and could not find that thread.

I do fairly well, and do not bet a great deal of money, but play once a week.

I would like to get my game to the next level.

When I left last time, a gentleman was telling me that he had no problem counting on eight deck shoes. I had asked him the best way to learn, software, websites, practice methods, etc., but never got a chance to go back.

I would really appreciate any help from those of you who have mastered the ability to sit at a table, take all that is going on and maintain the count at the same time. I'm willing to put in the work, but don't want to waste my time searching around for unreliable crap on the internet.

Thanks for any help and info you can give.

John

Learn basic strategy cold and I mean cold. Learn either KO or Hi-Lo to start. Get Casino Verite. Be patient, it could take months to become proficient.

Don't go away. There will be questions that you can't find answers to and this is a great place to ask them.

Quote: 1BB

Learn basic strategy cold and I mean cold. Learn either KO or Hi-Lo to start. Get Casino Verite. Be patient, it could take months to become proficient.

Don't go away. There will be questions that you can't find answers to and this is a great place to ask them.

Thanks. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I have no problem with the months involved.

Quote: Zayla

Thanks. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. I have no problem with the months involved.

if you have an android phone type in real blackjack. Its a free app and can be configured for any type of rule set and has a basic strategy chart. Thats what I used to practice card counting. I practice once a day for an hour practicing counting.

It's often been said it takes 10,000 hours worth of study to "master" something.

http://www.bottomlineperformance.com/10000-hours-to-mastery-the-gladwell-effect-on-learning-design/

Although I don't necessarily believe that, it shows that it often takes a LOT of time and effort for many people to get good at something. You need to practice, practice, practice. And then, when you're you think you're all practiced out, you have to practice some more.

As mentioned earlier, learn basic stategy so that it becomes automatic, regardless of how fast the tempo of the game. Many years ago when I wanted to learn a simple hi-lo count, I would go to my basement room and turn on music (quite loud). I would practice playing 3 hands vs.the dealer and counting to the beat of the music. Back then, many of the casinos had loud music blaring from the lounges near the tables. It worked for me. But it will take you quite some time before you can hold a conversation and still count accurately.
Good luck.

Quote: duffytootx

As mentioned earlier, learn basic stategy so that it becomes automatic, regardless of how fast the tempo of the game. Many years ago when I wanted to learn a simple hi-lo count, I would go to my basement room and turn on music (quite loud). I would practice playing 3 hands vs.the dealer and counting to the beat of the music. Back then, many of the casinos had loud music blaring from the lounges near the tables. It worked for me. But it will take you quite some time before you can hold a conversation and still count accurately.
Good luck.

Thank you. I've been doing a lot of reading about the KO versus hi-lo count methods so far, as mentioned above. Certainly the KO method is more simple and seems like a good way to start since you have learn the skill of keeping a running count anyway.

The program he suggested, Casino Verite, I've already downloaded and so far find very confusing and hard to navigate, but have not spent a great deal of time with it. It does not seem to teach the KO, which I thought it did.

Thanks for everyone's help.

John

Casino Verite can be a bit difficult for a first-time user, but it is an excellent product. Stick with it- you'll figure it out. Practice, practice, practice. Be sure to mix in plenty of live casino play for small stakes. Good luck.

The first thread you started is here:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/11165-brand-new-here-looking-for-some-info/

I did not use much software when I got started, but there used to be a training website that quizzed you on obscure basic strategy play, index play, and even flashed a rectangle on the screen that was supposed to represent the discard pile. You must get good at estimating the number of decks in the discard pile to make the TC conversion.

I practiced by counting down a deck any time I had a few spare minutes. I kept one in my car, and counted it down when I was waiting to pick up my gf. You should be able to count a deck down while waiting for a longer stop light. Set aside 3 cards and guess at the count. Go one at a time, 2 at a time, and then try just pushing through it without dealing them. Your goal should be <20 seconds.

a) Basic Strategy should be instinct. Make yourself flash cards to test the more obscure ones.
b) Buy a book like professional blackjack. The more you appreciate how close some of the hit/stand/double plays are in terms of expectation, the easier it will be to make correct index plays.
c) Learn the index plays. Ideally get a feel for the math behind why the index plays exist.
d) Practice estimating the size of the discard pile, and doing RC to TC conversions.
e) Practice in casino. Just flat bet at the minimum, but count. Practice practice practice.
f) Eventually, design a betting strategy that you don't have to think about. +2 TC = 2-3 units, +3 TC = 3-5 units, etc.

Quote: dwheatley

The first thread you started is here:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/11165-brand-new-here-looking-for-some-info/

I did not use much software when I got started, but there used to be a training website that quizzed you on obscure basic strategy play, index play, and even flashed a rectangle on the screen that was supposed to represent the discard pile. You must get good at estimating the number of decks in the discard pile to make the TC conversion.

I practiced by counting down a deck any time I had a few spare minutes. I kept one in my car, and counted it down when I was waiting to pick up my gf. You should be able to count a deck down while waiting for a longer stop light. Set aside 3 cards and guess at the count. Go one at a time, 2 at a time, and then try just pushing through it without dealing them. Your goal should be <20 seconds.

a) Basic Strategy should be instinct. Make yourself flash cards to test the more obscure ones.
b) Buy a book like professional blackjack. The more your appreciate how close some of the hit/stand/double plays are in terms of expectation, the easier it will be to make correct index plays.
c) Learn the index plays. Ideally get a feel for the math behind why the index plays exist.
d) Practice estimating the size of the discard pile, and doing RC to TC conversions.
e) Practice in casino. Just flat bet at the minimum, but count. Practice practice practice.
f) Eventually, design a betting strategy that you don't have to think about. +2 TC = 2-3 units, +3 TC = 3-5 units, etc.

Thanks, I appreciate you finding my last thead an all this info. I actually have the basic strategy down pretty much without thinking about it, as far as I know. I've used flashcards a thousand times, had people test me, etc, and try to play about once a week in AC.

What is your opinion of the KO method versus the hi-lo? It seems a lot easier because it eliminates the task of just what you wrote about, estimating the number of cards in the discard tray.

Thank you again.

John

I don't use KO. I've always used balanced counts like Hi-Lo to play BJ, its sidebets, or S21.

Pick one count and stick with it, you're just not going to get much improvement by switching between counts. Even upgrading to lvl 2 / 3 counts will cause most people to make more errors than it's worth.

Anyone close enough to Play in AC once a week should keep in mind.
House edge in AC is about .65% and in PA it is about .36%...
I prefer the beach and ocean but .3% is too big to leave on the table...

Quote: dwheatley

I don't use KO. I've always used balanced counts like Hi-Lo to play BJ, it's sidebets, or S21.

Pick one count and stick with it, you're just not going to get much improvement by switching between counts. Even upgrading to lvl 2 / 3 counts will cause most people to make more errors than it's worth.

After reading your information, along with a lot of other info, that's what I've decided. Thanks as always.

Quote: WongBo

Anyone close enough to Play in AC once a week should keep in mind.
House edge in AC is about .65% and in PA it is about .36%...
I prefer the beach and ocean but .3% is too big to leave on the table...

I could care less about the beach and the ocean since I've lived on them all my life, but it IS where I live and it's the only place I can consistently get to. It's either that, or wait once a year or so to get to Vegas.

Thank you, however, for your help.

I've been practicing everyday and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why it will take many, many hours before I would dare step into a casino and actually apply it!

That said, I am looking for some opinions. I realize a lot of things boil down to personal preference and how one way will be easier for one person versus another.

First, if you're at a table with 6-8 decks, do you count the cards as they come out one at a time, or do you wait for the second card so you can combine them and ignore the ones that cancel out, etc.?

In a single deck game, it seems like by the time you've got a count, either way, the deck is over, or close to it??

Again, any and all opinions are appreciated.

I would suggest counting the individuals if you are at first base and counting in pairs if you are at third.
Basically, whatever works easiest for you with out losing the count.
Practice dealing at home. Everything from head to head to a full table.
Try to get a feel for a fast game, which is what you will usually be encountering.
Practice counting down a deck or two, in groups of 1,2, and 3 cards at a time.
.??? Profit!

Quote: Zayla

First, if you're at a table with 6-8 decks, do you count the cards as they come out one at a time, or do you wait for the second card so you can combine them and ignore the ones that cancel out, etc.?

In a single deck game, it seems like by the time you've got a count, either way, the deck is over, or close to it??

It comes down to preference. I'm pretty comfortable at any position on the table, but prefer third base or the spot next to it. I always count in groups, sometimes pairs and sometimes larger groups. This allows me to keep my eyes off the felt for a longer period of time. This is important to be able to make it appear as if you are a casual player.

Also, as counting becomes more natural, using cancellation is so much easier than trying to count each card as they come out, at least for me. You can cancel multiple pairs pretty quickly. For instance, using H/L if a KQ, 26, A4, and 39 are dealt, it only takes a quick glance to figure out the KQ and 26 cancel each other, the A4 cancels itself, and you are left with a positive 1 with the 39. This is where the practice comes in, to be able to quickly adjust the count with minimal effort.

Thanks, that's what I've been doing and getting pretty fast with almost 100% accuracy, but only with one deck so far.

I never thought about doing it differently depending on where you're sitting but it makes sense. Thank you.

Quote: MidwestAP

It comes down to preference. I'm pretty comfortable at any position on the table, but prefer third base or the spot next to it. I always count in groups, sometimes pairs and sometimes larger groups. This allows me to keep my eyes off the felt for a longer period of time. This is important to be able to make it appear as if you are a casual player.

Also, as counting becomes more natural, using cancellation is so much easier than trying to count each card as they come out, at least for me. You can cancel multiple pairs pretty quickly. For instance, using H/L if a KQ, 26, A4, and 39 are dealt, it only takes a quick glance to figure out the KQ and 26 cancel each other, the A4 cancels itself, and you are left with a positive 1 with the 39. This is where the practice comes in, to be able to quickly adjust the count with minimal effort.

So far, my gut is leaning toward waiting and canceling pairs as you suggest, though I do think it makes sense that it would be different depending on where I'm sitting, as WongBo suggested.

I guess it's practice, practice, practice.

Thanks to both you.

I agree with Midwest on the point about minimizing your perusl of the cards.
Try this...blindly deal out six hands and a dealer upcard,
See how well you can count with a scan of the hands.
You might also go find a $5 game and practice, so you can determine your weak points.

Quote: Zayla

I guess it's practice, practice, practice.

Practice at home will help develop your skills to a certain extent, but it's still going to be nothing like a live casino environment.

The best way I can think of to practice at home is to deal to a bunch of your friends. You can get a layout, shoe and 6 decks of cards for around $50. You may already have chips, if not add another $20.

Invite a bunch of friends (you want at least 6 or 7 players), and have their girlfriends or other buddies come along. Turn on some loud music, get a bunch of TVs in the room tuned to sports and turn down the volume, and serve them alcoholic drinks. If possible, get the girlfriends to start shedding clothes, or dancing on your coffee table.

Now deal some blackjack. As you give each player their second card announce their total. Say Steve has a '6', then you give him an '8', say '14', etc. Then when everyone has their cards, go back to first base, announce what the players total is, and wait for the signal to hit or stand (or split, or double). If they take another card announce the new total. Continue until all players have their final hands or have busted. Now, do the dealers hand. Resolve all bets. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Oh yeah, and try to keep count while you're doing it. Have a helper that isn't as distracted as you keep the count manually with paper and pencil.

If you can keep the count in an environment like this, go try a mostly empty $5 dollar table; look for a slow dealer.

And remember, just because you're counting doesn't mean you'll ever have an edge over the house, just that you'll know if it happens. Count down a full deck and the count always returns to 0.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

If possible, get the girlfriends to start shedding clothes, or dancing on your coffee table.

If the girlfriends start shedding clothes, the blackjack game is OVER.

Quote: MakingBook

If the girlfriends start shedding clothes, the blackjack game is OVER.

Perhaps. But it certainly would be a distraction, and learning to count isn't just about how fast you can do it, but how well you can do it with other distractions.

Quote: MakingBook

If the girlfriends start shedding clothes, the blackjack game is OVER.

That was one of my first thoughts.

It is great advice Monkey and I appreciate it. I've got the cards, chips just not the layout. Not sure where to get it. I guess it's easiest to order on-line. Of course, I don't have that many friends, but I'll figure it out.

Once I get "my feet under me", I will go to a $5 table in AC and just bet the minimum no matter what, to get a sense if I'm getting it.

Thank you!

Quote: Zayla

... just not the layout. Not sure where to get it.

Try a party supply store. Don't forget the shoe, they aren't that expensive and it's way easier than grabbing some off a pile.

Quote: Zayla

Of course, I don't have that many friends, but I'll figure it out.

Once you start getting the word out about the free booze and the disrobing women this problem will take care of itself.