Newbie question about counting

Hello all, as a newbie I have been studying the KO method and have a few questions right now about counting (and many more to come)and hoping this knowledgeable board can shed some light.

1.) Do you follow your bet spread religiously or parlay here and there as a form of cover. Reason I ask is I hear all sorts of things: bets become suspicious when your bet goes from one unit to 6 units back down to 3 up to 5 back down to 1 type of thing within say 5 hands, you should never reduce a big bet after a win only a loss so you look like a "gambler". I am trying to filter out the garbage from reasonable things to consider.

2.) What are people's philosophies regarding leaving after a shoe ends if a max bet is placed at some point during the shoe. I've heard some people suggest it is a good idea to avoid detection.

Thanks for help and advice from the experienced folks on the site, it is greatly appreciated. I've been lurking for a bit and finally wanted to participate to soak up some good knowledge as I have a lot to learn and eager to learn it.

No parlay, no cover bets but sometimes a cover act and I do spread with the count. A skills check will tell them how much of a threat you are. The rest is up to them but most counters are allowed to play on.

I can't stress enough the importance of short sessions. This will avoid some of those dreaded skills checks. I never begin a new shoe after having my max bet out. That's asking for trouble.

Solid, reasonable advice right there. Short sessions, no cover (super-unnecessary and wasteful for low-limit players), and play unrated. Yeah, you lose the comps, but if you ever get serious about the AP stuff, you'll be glad your name is still clean when there's real money to be made. Like 1BB said, a good act is worth considering, but be aware that many people greatly overrate their acting ability. A flimsy act can blow your cover more easily than no act at all.

Quote: IDoubleA8vs6

Hello all, as a newbie I have been studying the KO method and have a few questions right now about counting (and many more to come)and hoping this knowledgeable board can shed some light.

1.) Do you follow your bet spread religiously or parlay here and there as a form of cover. Reason I ask is I hear all sorts of things: bets become suspicious when your bet goes from one unit to 6 units back down to 3 up to 5 back down to 1 type of thing within say 5 hands, you should never reduce a big bet after a win only a loss so you look like a "gambler". I am trying to filter out the garbage from reasonable things to consider.

2.) What are people's philosophies regarding leaving after a shoe ends if a max bet is placed at some point during the shoe. I've heard some people suggest it is a good idea to avoid detection.

Thanks for help and advice from the experienced folks on the site, it is greatly appreciated. I've been lurking for a bit and finally wanted to participate to soak up some good knowledge as I have a lot to learn and eager to learn it.

Your screen name is interesting. Are you playing H17 games or are you using index play?

Quote: 1BB

Your screen name is interesting. Are you playing H17 games or are you using index play?

I assumed his name was referring to a H17 game, but your index play question caught my eye.

I use 18 index plays + insurance. Should I also use A8 vs 6? At what count?

Currently I play all soft hands according to basic strategy. Thanks.

Hi-Lo index for A8 vs 6 is 0 for H17 and 1 for S17. And in regards to your, "should I use.." question, the answer is that you should use as many index plays as you can effectively memorize and efficiently use at the table. Ideally, you would use full indices; realistically, you should probably use a few dozen if you're playing any serious volume whatsoever. There's no reason to stop at 18!

Quote: MakingBook

I assumed his name was referring to a H17 game, but your index play question caught my eye.

I use 18 index plays + insurance. Should I also use A8 vs 6? At what count?

Currently I play all soft hands according to basic strategy. Thanks.

In S17 the index for A8 v 5 OR 6 is 1. I figure that's something worth remembering because you see the count get to 1 so much. The only reason I looked it up was b/c I know you double that on single deck, and on H17, so I figured the Index play had to be real close to 0. I think it's worth it to know as many indexes close to 0 and 1 as possible, because you should always be using them in higher counts, as well. (Although my focus is on Poker now and I barely play BJ, it's interesting.)


Besides, since I assume so few people know that it may almost be like a cover play, as long as the PB isn't savvy to all the indexes and counting. It might even look like a dumb move.

Yep all H17 games unfortunately S17 games seem to be slowly but surely extinct in my price range. There are S17 games in $25 range but I won't be counting on those tables anytime soon. Games I play SD - DOA, no DAS, DD -DOA, DAS, and 6D - DOA, DAS are all H17 and basic strategy says double A8 vs. A6.

No index plays for KO for A8 vs. 6. A8 vs 6 doubling can throw people off it seems an act as an inadvertent form of cover as recently at a single deck game I doubled A7 vs. 6 on third base and people plus dealer thought I was a dumbass. "Ohh I wouldn't do that A,7 is a good hand" Dealer: "That's a risky move that is too much for my tastes". Of course the small sample size proved made them think they were correct as I ended up getting a 6 and dealer got a small card to end up with 19.

I imagine most ploppies play A,2 through A,8 incorrectly for H17 games vs dealer 2 - 6. Out of curiosity what are the rationale for indices for this play is it when count is extremely negative you'd want to double A8 vs 6 in a S17 game banking for increased odds of a a 2,3?

Thanks for prompt replies 1BB and Lonesome Gambler. Def makes sense what you are saying. What do you feel is most reasonable definition of short playing time amongst 30min, 45min, and 1 hr? I have heard arguments for all three. I can see playing more than hour if shoes one has been playing have been slightly neutral to slightly positive so you are only getting chance to bet maybe 1-5 units.

I can see if right off the bat you are hitting 1st or second shoe and count jumps up to max bet multiple times you may wanna leave by 30 mins.

So if max bet arises in first shoes you advise to leave after the shoe is dealt? Definitely seems like a good aggresive way to avoid detection. Makes sense for a place like Vegas where there are a lot of casinos to potentially rotate in and out of.

deleted

RE: short sessions, it will vary from place to place. If you're in Vegas or another destination with many games, it's probably best to keep your sessions below 45 minutes, but if you play for low stakes, you can probably play a bit longer in many cases. A good idea may be to leave after placing a max bet at the end of a shoe. You'll need to experiment to find the right degree of aggression for a particular place, but sessions of 45 minutes to an hour are usually reasonable, with some early departures predicated on heat and/or highly-conspicuous play. In locations with fewer casinos, you'll probably need to play longer sessions, so just be aware that you will be subject to more scrutiny and will not be able to fly under the radar as easily if you intend to get in any amount of volume.

I'm seeking advice regarding a single local casino-

8D, DOA, DAS, no surrender, penetration usually only 70-75%, min bet $15.
Simulation results (KO preferred)-
$15-$150 spread, +0.348%, $8.68 p/hr
$15-$300 spread, +0.698%, $22.92 p/hr

Is this game worth playing?
How long can I play and stay under the radar?

Quote: MakingBook

I'm seeking advice regarding a single local casino-

8D, DOA, DAS, no surrender, penetration usually only 70-75%, min bet $15.
Simulation results (KO preferred)-
$15-$150 spread, +0.348%, $8.68 p/hr
$15-$300 spread, +0.698%, $22.92 p/hr

Is this game worth playing?
How long can I play and stay under the radar?

Hi, I am also studying/using KO and am wondering how you got the +0.348% for 8D, DOA, NS. The book mentions for KO Preferred spreading 1-10 is 0.52% advantage. The benchmark they use is S17 and no DAS, factoring in H17 subtracts 0.20% but DAS adds back ~ 0.13%, so I thought the percentage would be about +0.45%

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

No, you double in HIGH counts as the dealer is more prone to bust and you are more likely still get a 10/Ace for a good hand.

Edit: Be careful if playing on a D9 game. If you double A,8 it is considered 9, not 9 or nineteen and if you catch a 2 it will be counted as 11 not 21.

Thanks. Wow, that D9 game sounds awful, where do they offer that kind of junk, I'll make sure to avoid those. Sounds as bad as a SD 6:5 blackjack game I passed where can only double on 10/11.

I use CVCX simulation software from Casino Verite. The canned sims are great and easy to use/understand. Our percentages are different due to (1) penetration and (2) specific betting ramps.

CVCX is an excellent product. About $85- worth every dollar.