Local Casino and Heat

As I mentioned in my previous thread and as my name suggests, I am a new Advantage Player after 15 years of playing BS. I have a local casino about 15 minutes from my house, and then a half dozen or so that are roughly two hours away. I run a seasonal business that is very busy in the fall and winter but very slow in the late spring and summer, and as such, my intention is to play about three times a week and hopefully make a supplemental income (and frankly, I need to overcome boredom this time of year lol so it's win-win). I am seeking advice as to how to do this from the highly knowledgeable members of this site without getting backed off from my local casino. In other words, I need to walk the line between making a decent wage (I realize there is variance at work, I've read this site and blackjackinfo extensively) without getting backed off.

Here's some background info which may be useful. I am spreading 25-300 or 2x 150. Typically I play three to four hours at a time, and have been playing three nites a week. The casino ranges from fairly crowded to very crowded. Bankroll is pretty much replenishable so now ROR for the most part. The store is not a small one by any means, very comparable to Vegas casinos in terms of size, betting limits, etc. Again, my issues are with not getting banned since it's the only one that's close I really want to avoid that.

1. Am I playing too much? I.E. is three times a week going to put a big red flag on me? My thoughts were that if I play once a week they are still going to recognize me in time, so I may as well just play and keep as low a profile as I can and see what happens.

2. They are super aggressive about asking for player's cards, I mean I can't sit down for a table without a dealer or pitboss asking me about it. My gut (and this is a 60-40 thing) is that it's more about pushing this for marketing purposes than to catch counters. FWIW, I haven't noticed that I am playing with a single counter yet (i.e. I'd think I'd recognize them based on bet fluctuation being in sync with mine). I have been to a lot of casinos in my lifetime but never seen a casino that was so amped about asking if you want a players card. I do find it helps to bring my chips to the table instead of cashing i there, but still, I am wondering if by playing three times a week without a card I am drawing more scrutiny rather than less. As Lonesome has pointed out, the last thing I want is to get blacklisted from multiple casinos, but with my main concern being to not get blacklisted here, maybe I should just take the plunge? Thoughts?

3. I have found that when I suddenly up my bet dramatically the dealers sometimes call out "Checks Play". Is this altering the "eye in the sky" to analyze my play, and if so, is this a sign that I should lie low for a while? My game plan is to avoid the dealers that called out "Checks Play" and keep records of those that I greatly upped my bets that didn't say a word. I am usually good at reading people and there are some who I pick up on a certain non-confrontational personality style such that they would rather ignore it than cause controversy.

4. I realize that tipping is generally to be avoided as it cuts into EV, but if I suddenly ramp up from 25 to 300 and hit a big winning streak and win a thousand or so lets say, is it going to piss the dealer off that he allowed me to count without saying a word and then didn't tip? I.E. "one hand washes the other" and would a 5 dollar token of appreciate maybe help them look the other way? Ultimately, it seems to me that if I am playing at the same place all the time even a moron could figure out why I am ramping up my bets late in the shoe, so a little rapport will go a long way in terms of longevity.

I realize I have a lot of questions, please don't feel like you have to answer them all- if you want to pick and choose any insight is greatly appreciated!

Quote: NewAP

As I mentioned in my previous thread and as my name suggests, I am a new Advantage Player after 15 years of playing BS. I have a local casino about 15 minutes from my house, and then a half dozen or so that are roughly two hours away. I run a seasonal business that is very busy in the fall and winter but very slow in the late spring and summer, and as such, my intention is to play about three times a week and hopefully make a supplemental income (and frankly, I need to overcome boredom this time of year lol so it's win-win). I am seeking advice as to how to do this from the highly knowledgeable members of this site without getting backed off from my local casino. In other words, I need to walk the line between making a decent wage (I realize there is variance at work, I've read this site and blackjackinfo extensively) without getting backed off.

Here's some background info which may be useful. I am spreading 25-300 or 2x 150. Typically I play three to four hours at a time, and have been playing three nites a week. The casino ranges from fairly crowded to very crowded. Bankroll is pretty much replenishable so now ROR for the most part. The store is not a small one by any means, very comparable to Vegas casinos in terms of size, betting limits, etc. Again, my issues are with not getting banned since it's the only one that's close I really want to avoid that.

1. Am I playing too much? I.E. is three times a week going to put a big red flag on me? My thoughts were that if I play once a week they are still going to recognize me in time, so I may as well just play and keep as low a profile as I can and see what happens.

2. They are super aggressive about asking for player's cards, I mean I can't sit down for a table without a dealer or pitboss asking me about it. My gut (and this is a 60-40 thing) is that it's more about pushing this for marketing purposes than to catch counters. FWIW, I haven't noticed that I am playing with a single counter yet (i.e. I'd think I'd recognize them based on bet fluctuation being in sync with mine). I have been to a lot of casinos in my lifetime but never seen a casino that was so amped about asking if you want a players card. I do find it helps to bring my chips to the table instead of cashing i there, but still, I am wondering if by playing three times a week without a card I am drawing more scrutiny rather than less. As Lonesome has pointed out, the last thing I want is to get blacklisted from multiple casinos, but with my main concern being to not get blacklisted here, maybe I should just take the plunge? Thoughts?

3. I have found that when I suddenly up my bet dramatically the dealers sometimes call out "Checks Play". Is this altering the "eye in the sky" to analyze my play, and if so, is this a sign that I should lie low for a while? My game plan is to avoid the dealers that called out "Checks Play" and keep records of those that I greatly upped my bets that didn't say a word. I am usually good at reading people and there are some who I pick up on a certain non-confrontational personality style such that they would rather ignore it than cause controversy.

4. I realize that tipping is generally to be avoided as it cuts into EV, but if I suddenly ramp up from 25 to 300 and hit a big winning streak and win a thousand or so lets say, is it going to piss the dealer off that he allowed me to count without saying a word and then didn't tip? I.E. "one hand washes the other" and would a 5 dollar token of appreciate maybe help them look the other way? Ultimately, it seems to me that if I am playing at the same place all the time even a moron could figure out why I am ramping up my bets late in the shoe, so a little rapport will go a long way in terms of longevity.

I realize I have a lot of questions, please don't feel like you have to answer them all- if you want to pick and choose any insight is greatly appreciated!

1. If you are counting 3 times a week in the same casino it is way to much. Try once a week different shifts.
2. Casinos are very big on marketing. They want to know all the players and reward them for loyal play.
3. At a quarter game it is the dealers job to announce checks in play when you go to black, do not take it personally.
4. Normally tipping should be held to a minimum when counting, but if you are having a good run and you have the willpower to leave before you lose it back throw him/her a couple tokes.

You should NEVER be asked for a player's club card... have it in your hand when you approach the table or else don't approach the table. Always give the your card while you are fumbling for your money. They usually only want it for marketing purposes but they get alarmed when anyone balks at it for any reason.

Checks play is what dealers are told to say. It alerts the floor person who makes decisions, usually he just ignores it at first.

You will encounter Variance... make use of it. When you have a losing session, spend time in the casino drinking. If you are there three shifts a week they already "know" you, so make it work for you. Drink at the bar, get a bit tight, go back and play (and tip) wildly (but briefly) then leave.

If Lady Luck smiles upon you... share your good fortune with the dealers ... or they are even more likely to remember you.

Light green with a 1-12 spread is going to stay under the radar at a lot of places. If they want to know who you are, they can easily find out so get a player's card. Mix your bets with some red chips and carefully rathole a few green. Never pocket black chips.

Do these half dozen casinos two hours away have comparable rules? If so, it might be worth getting a good rotation going. It would definitely lessen your heat concerns.

I look for fast dealers with good penetration. As long as they meet those requirements they can think, say or do whatever they want. They generally will not be getting a tip from me.

Quote: 1BB

They generally will not be getting a tip from me.

They will probably remember that.

Quote: FleaStiff

You should NEVER be asked for a player's club card... have it in your hand when you approach the table or else don't approach the table.

Not sure I understand the comment......I am almost ALWAYS asked for a players card???

It seems you are saying I need to get a players card or not play at all? Why?

I play unrated. Short sessions- don't care about comps.

Quote: 1BB

I look for fast dealers with good penetration. As long as they meet those requirements they can think, say or do whatever they want.

AWESOME! That would make a great signature!

Quote: FleaStiff

You should NEVER be asked for a player's club card... have it in your hand when you approach the table or else don't approach the table. Always give the your card while you are fumbling for your money. They usually only want it for marketing purposes but they get alarmed when anyone balks at it for any reason.

Interesting perspective. I would be curious to know what others think- bearing in mind that my #1 priority is to not get 86'd from my "home base" casino. My natural instinct is that I don't want them to know anything about me, but I too have to think that someone playing several times a week but always declining the card attracts unwanted attention. So maybe I am better off having the card since my main priority is to not get bounced there more so that worrying about getting added to ban lists of other casinos. The flipside, however, is that my thoughts are that if I were backed off, maybe I let a year pass and then come back next summer? It seems like it might be easier for me to do this is there were no record of who I am. Thoughts?

Quote: 1BB

Light green with a 1-12 spread is going to stay under the radar at a lot of places. If they want to know who you are, they can easily find out so get a player's card. Mix your bets with some red chips and carefully rathole a few green. Never pocket black chips.

Do these half dozen casinos two hours away have comparable rules? If so, it might be worth getting a good rotation going. It would definitely lessen your heat concerns.

I look for fast dealers with good penetration. As long as they meet those requirements they can think, say or do whatever they want. They generally will not be getting a tip from me.

Thanks for the insights. As for rotating in other casinos- it would be nice, but from my perpective, four hours round trip is just too far. If my EV was 50/hr and I was playing four hours, you have to figure that between gas and wear and tear on your car that's another 75 dollars. Throw in parking and having to eat there and I'm down to 100 dollar projection for an eight hour day, with loads of variance and frankly I don't enjoy the drive. Doesn't seem worth it. If it was an hour away, that would work for me but not two hours. Am I going wrong somewhere in my thinking? I suppose if I were to play a full eight hours the math would look a lot better but my fiance would be very unhappy with me coming home that late..... The casinos actually have slightly better rules, no clue about penetration though (pretty good where I play now) I only played them as a BS player so I wasn't paying attention.

I was hoping you could elaborate on this cryptic remark- "If they want to know who you are, they can easily find out". How so?

Quote: only1choice

1. If you are counting 3 times a week in the same casino it is way to much. Try once a week different shifts.
2. Casinos are very big on marketing. They want to know all the players and reward them for loyal play.

Interesting perspective. So are you saying then that I should play rated, because they are pushing the players card as a means of marketing and not to track my betting habits, or are you saying that me turning down the players card won't necessarily mark me as a counter?

I would be curious to know if anyone else thinks that three times a week at the same casino is way too much- given that the other casinos are not practicalb for me to go to consistently? What if I said that I will play twice a week- but once in the day shift, and once at night? Am I doomed playing that often? Let me emphasize that the casino is absolutely huge- like just as big as any Vegas casino, which I think makes it easier to "blend in" unnoticed than if it were a smaller casino.

For those who say that I should NOT get a players card, how do you handle the constant badgering without looking suspicious? The first few times I played it off with the same joke "oh that would just encourage me to gamble more than I should" which got me a chuckle- but I can't get much more mileage out of that one. My current strategy is that I just act like I am just generally disinterested, like if someone tried to sign you up for a credit card you didn't need or something. I have found that it helps if you bring your chips to the table but still an approach to turning down the card would be helpful obviously.

Quote: NewAP

Thanks for the insights. As for rotating in other casinos- it would be nice, but from my perpective, four hours round trip is just too far. If my EV was 50/hr and I was playing four hours, you have to figure that between gas and wear and tear on your car that's another 75 dollars. Throw in parking and having to eat there and I'm down to 100 dollar projection for an eight hour day, with loads of variance and frankly I don't enjoy the drive. Doesn't seem worth it. If it was an hour away, that would work for me but not two hours. Am I going wrong somewhere in my thinking? I suppose if I were to play a full eight hours the math would look a lot better but my fiance would be very unhappy with me coming home that late..... The casinos actually have slightly better rules, no clue about penetration though (pretty good where I play now) I only played them as a BS player so I wasn't paying attention.

I was hoping you could elaborate on this cryptic remark- "If they want to know who you are, they can easily find out". How so?

Before I answer your last question, I want to commend you for staying in true AP form by not giving any details about yourself. Others could learn from this.

A certain casino in the Northeast had the State Police run my license plate. I'd rather not give any details except that it was because of card counting.

1 - I vote to get the Player's Card. I definitely think it makes you look less suspicious. I also think you need to tip. If you're playing 2-3 times a week, they're going to get to know you one way or the other.

2 - I vote for you to get a part-time job instead of playing BJ to earn supplemental income. I'm not saying you're not going to win, but playing blackjack for income seems like a real crappy job.

deleted

Quote: FinsRule

1 - I vote to get the Player's Card. I definitely think it makes you look less suspicious. I also think you need to tip. If you're playing 2-3 times a week, they're going to get to know you one way or the other.

2 - I vote for you to get a part-time job instead of playing BJ to earn supplemental income. I'm not saying you're not going to win, but playing blackjack for income seems like a real crappy job.

I tell you what, there is a ton of great info on these sites but the negativity of AP's is astounding. I mean, I bet you wouldn't go on a Motocross message board and read "our sport is a pile of dung, an even trashier form of NASCAR basically". You've got 940 posts in two and a half years, there must be something about blackjack that has kept your interest. Are the prospects that bad?

FWIW getting a part time job wouldn't make much sense- doing it for the excitement as much as the $$$$ I guess you would say- my fiance and I both have six figure incomes, I don't say that to brag b/c there are people out there making way more than we do but point being that working a menial part time job for 10 bucks an hour just isn't making sense, but I do have a lot of time on my hands in the summer, and I guess I love a good "scheme" as much as the next guy (maybe more lol).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Players Card and tipping.

When they ask me for a card, I tell them I used to have one
but the offers I got in the mail were almost non existant for
playing the table games in this casino, so I threw the card away.
Tell them your wife gets offers every week for her slot play,
and you rarely got anything.

It doesn't matter if this is true or not, they will have heard this
before from other players. Tell them its not worth your time
to get rated in this casino, why bother. The pit has no idea
what you get or don't get in the mail and I never have a problem
with this excuse. They get kind of embarrassed that the casino
they work for is cheap with comps, and they quit asking for
your card when they see you coming. I've had other players
agree with me and say "Thats true, I played 10 days last
month and didn't get jack for it." Or they'll just agree that
its a waste of time. I've even had pit people agree with me that
table games don't produce squat for comps in their casino.

Its important to say 'their casino', don't say you don't use
a card ever, in any casino. This is a discovery you made about
their specific casino, put the blame on them for why you don't
want a card.

Quote: NewAP

I tell you what, there is a ton of great info on these sites but the negativity of AP's is astounding. I mean, I bet you wouldn't go on a Motocross message board and read "our sport is a pile of dung, an even trashier form of NASCAR basically". You've got 940 posts in two and a half years, there must be something about blackjack that has kept your interest. Are the prospects that bad?

FWIW getting a part time job wouldn't make much sense- doing it for the excitement as much as the $$$$ I guess you would say- my fiance and I both have six figure incomes, I don't say that to brag b/c there are people out there making way more than we do but point being that working a menial part time job for 10 bucks an hour just isn't making sense, but I do have a lot of time on my hands in the summer, and I guess I love a good "scheme" as much as the next guy (maybe more lol).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Players Card and tipping.

A good scheme and excitement are much better reasons than "supplemental income"

I think you may win some money. But I think you're better off saying/thinking you "won" rather than you "earned". Basically, do it for the fun/thrill, not for the money. Because even when counting you can lose.

Quote: NewAP

I tell you what, there is a ton of great info on these sites but the negativity of AP's is astounding. I mean, I bet you wouldn't go on a Motocross message board and read "our sport is a pile of dung, an even trashier form of NASCAR basically". You've got 940 posts in two and a half years, there must be something about blackjack that has kept your interest. Are the prospects that bad?

To be fair, this is not an AP forum. There are a lot of knowledgable people here, but perspectives will vary wildly. The reason you read a lot of stuff about getting a part-time job, not bothering in the first place, etc. is because new players tend to have a very misinformed idea of what card counting is worth. It's easy to run some sims and get a $/h figure, but there are so many variables that are more important than this that are ignored and come back to cause trouble later. Travel, scouting, waiting, crowded tables, suboptimal conditions, heat, and a million other things will all have a negative impact on your win rate. When all is said and done, most new counters would probably be better off with a part-time job, at least in terms of hourly earnings.

This is one of the best articles I've ever read on the subject of advantage play. The message is subtle (despite how blatantly overt it seems based on the title), and I've seen many counters complain about it. In my opinion, reading and understanding the point of this article will make the aforementioned attitude toward getting started in AP a lot more clear: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html

When I started counting, I knew that it wouldn't be a huge source of supplemental income, but I was so intrigued by the subject that I had no option but to continue exploring it. I wasn't put off by the apparent negativity of other players as I was starting out, which is probably why I stuck around in the years that followed. A thick skin is important in this business, but an ability to learn from others while still coming to your own conclusions is even more so. You will be hit by negativity and roadblocks at every turn; most people give up completely or just stick around and wallow in mediocrity.

As for your questions in the OP, there are really no hard answers to any of those. Here's my take:

1. This varies quite a bit from place to place. If your local joint is as busy as you indicated, then you are in a better position to stay under the radar, in general. In general, crowded, large, busy casinos see more money come and go, and they see more action on a regular basis. Longer sessions may be tolerated. However, even large casinos do pay attention, and some have more resources at their disposal, making it tougher to play a strong game for any length of time.

You will likely run into two problems. You may arouse someone's suspicions and prompt a skills check, or you may amass a lifetime win that prompts a skills check. Your options are to avoid arousing suspicion, avoid having an apparent large win on file, and avoiding a skills check altogether. Most skills checks require 45 minutes of play or more to adequately assess the level of your play. This is one of the reasons why short sessions are strong. But if you have many sessions that a casino can pull information from, then short sessions may be better for avoiding an initial skills check than for actually beating a skills check altogether (which you won't be able to do if they have a sufficient sample size, trust me). Like I said, there's no hard answer here—you have to think about the problem and figure out the best solution for your particular situation. As for your cumulative lifetime win, put some thought into it and get creative.

2. A lot of players think this is heat, but it's almost always benign. Yes, casinos "want" to give you comps so that you'll keep coming back for more, but I'm not convinced that this is the primary reason for the move toward players card ubiquity. Casinos want to know as much as they can about their players, especially the ones who bet significant money. Your card is how a casino tracks your play. Unfortunately, playing as a refusal at your local joint may not resolve this problem, as you will become recognizable and will usually have a profile created for you in the system anyway, with you description, details, etc. At your local casino, it's probably best to play rated, but of course it does present the problem of amassing heat at sister properties, in affiliated surveillance networks, etc. I don't agree that it's easy for casinos to find out who you are, but some are willing to resort to unethical and/or outright illegal activity such as what 1BB described. Not much you can do about that.

As far as declining a card goes, don't bother with a lengthy explanation. Just smile and tell them, "no, thanks." This will seem odd for a regular, but if you don't want a card, you don't want a card!

3. Others have covered this pretty well. Most casinos call "cheques play" whenever $100 or more is being wagered. I've played in places where they called it on $25, and places where no calls were made until you got to "purple action." It's not heat, so don't worry about it. It will often prompt a visit from the floor person the first time it's called, but it won't usually prompt a call to surveillance, unless the casino you're in has a higher-than-average fear of seeing money on the premises. Betting in all one unit-size (all green, for example) may make this call more uncommon, and it may make your bet spread harder to spot. Then again, it may not.

4. Tipping is dangerous for all APs, especially counters. The bottom line is that excessive tipping can easily put you into -EV territory, and it's tough to tell what's "excessive" and what's not sometimes. I like to toke dealers because it's the custom, and because dealers depend on tokes for a consistent wage. That said, I have no illusions that this practice has resulted in anything but less money in my pocket. A lot of APs think that tokes buy them cover, or better playing conditions, or whatever, but I suspect that excessive toking is often just a result of players being self-conscious.

Pissing off dealers should not be your primary concern, as many dealers will not appreciate your tokes anyway. When you start putting out your max bets, toke a nickel and see how the dealer reacts. Unless you're toking an amount that seems "fair" to the dealer, you may just be wasting money anyway. I've gotten blatantly rude comments and talk behind my back from dealers who were unhappy with the amounts of tokes that they received from me, usually to the tune of $5+/hr added to their daily pay from my tokes alone. In these cases, they made at least $5 or more extra per hour simply by virtue of me sitting at their table. Not only did they not appreciate it, they let me know about it. I should have toked those dealers $0 instead. In other cases, I've had dealers who were very friendly and appreciative, and I will likely toke them well (but still a small fraction of my EV) in the future.

At low-medium stakes, it's tough to toke an amount that is both a small portion of your EV and an amount that is seen as acceptable by the dealer. Use your judgement. Just don't fall into the trap that many APs do, by over-toking and fooling yourself into thinking that it accomplishes anything other than lowering your win rate.

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html


"If you are anything like the masses of humanity, if you like to be rewarded
for your efforts within some reasonable time frame, you won’t be able to
take the fluctuations. Those negative downswings will be bigger, and harder,
and longer lasting, and more upsetting, and more unbelievable, than your
level of toleration. Your losses will tear at your heart, and fill you with
emptiness, and leave you in a state of quiet desperation. I hear this from
players over and over again. I hear this from players who claim to have studied
diligently, and practiced for hours on end, for weeks and months with a singular
dream—to beat the casinos."

I remember reading that article in 1997. Good stuff.

As to point #2...I think what the other poster is trying to tell you is that not having/using a players card draws way more heat than using one does. The primary purpose of the players card IS MARKETING. Yes, it can and will, be used to track your play...but betting green in a 1-12 spread shouldn't worry any decent size casino. You stand out much more by refusing to use one.

You have already gotten on their radar so to speak by being a regular player who doesn't have a card. If you act like you want to hide who you are, and you are a consistent winner, your days will be numbered at that casino for sure. I think you should take the approach of taking the card, but also making a point of asking how you go about getting qualified for their "gold" level card. I also think you should/could lower the scrutiny by playing once a week at high stakes rather than the way you have been going about it. If you insist on going with card counting as a source of income, then I think you have to come up with some cover for yourself that is believeable. Acting like you are slightly drunk when you play might work. This goes hand in hand with the occasional deliberate bonehead play. This can help convince the staff you are just lucky when you win, rather than a professional machine grinding away at them.

Personally, I think card counters are soon to be extinct because no casino wants them in their establishments, and they will collaborate with each other at every opportunity to identify counters and back them off or ban them. I agree with some previous posters that the hoops you have to jump through just to keep the heat off, coupled with variance will ultimately make card counting profitability nearly impossible. I don't play BJ anymore. I think someone in your position might be better off to take up craps. You have the kind of money to take maximum odds on the dark side and create a razor thin edge in that game. And you wouldn't have to worry about heat from anyone except other players for dark side betting.

Quote: 4andaKicker

I think someone in your position might be better off to take up craps. You have the kind of money to take maximum odds on the dark side and create a razor thin edge in that game.

Could you please expand on that comment? Probably start a new thread.

Quote: RoundMan

Could you please expand on that comment? Probably start a new thread.

I would highly recommend checking with the Wizard at the Wizard of Odds site and checking out his statements about the best strategy and his charts on how utilizing odds proportionally lower the house edge.

Quote: vendman1

As to point #2...I think what the other poster is trying to tell you is that not having/using a players card draws way more heat than using one does.

And I disagree, in local casinos. They get used to you and your reasons
for not wanting one. I get hassled far more in Vegas, a town I don't
even live in, then I do in my local casino. Of course its marketing,
thats why they always tell you that you'll miss all the special offers
that will be coming your way. Thats why I tell them I never get any
offers playing just table games, but my wife gets tons for playing the
slots.