Team Play Idea
I have a team play idea of playing with my fiance- with whom I have joint finances. Background info- ROR is not really an issue as our bankroll is replenishable (within reason lol). Typically I spread 25-300 or 2x 150. My fiance has an amazing memory and has played BS with me on many previous Vegas trips. What's nice is that I would imagine that women are not typically "profiled" as counters, especially b/c in this case, she can play the ditz role perfectly.
So there are two ways that I am thinking of approaching this-
Scenario #1- We both play separate tables. We would have a text that is all ready to go, just push send, and we would be able to do send it too each other unnoticed when the count gets good at our table. Then the other player could come in immediately at higher stakes, which would eliminate scrutiny likely to come with large bet increases and also eliminate the scrutiny that comes with back counting, I would think. The casino is large enough that a player could get up and leave their table for another table without the original dealer even realizing we were leaving for another table.
Scenario #2- One of us plays, the other notes where they are and hangs out at the quarter slots until we get that text that says to come over and play. Of course in both scenarios we would pretend we didn't know each other.
My first question is which approach is better, the second player coming in fresh or from another table? My thoughts were that Scenario #1 was better b/c it doubles the likelihood of one of us sitting at a hot table.
The second question I have is whether such a strategy gave us a substantial edge over counting alone? Again, if exposure to the most highly positive counts is the goal, then the answer would seem to be "yes". I realize that an additional player means that the 10's and Aces Rich part of the deck would be shared with that player, but a higher percentage of that cluster would be going to "us" as opposed to the dealer if we had an additional player.
Finally, the part of the plan that worries me is that since the count can change quickly, excessive table hopping might draw more attention to us, especially since we are both betting large sums at the same time. I'd assume that anyone expected of team play is going to be looked at much worse by the pit than a solo counter. There is a casino that is just 15 minutes away from us and then about a half dozen that are roughly two hours away, so perhaps the analysis is different if we are playing at the local store as opposed to the more distant ones, which wouldn't hurt as much to get "backed off" at?
Oddly enough, with all the discussion of many useful topics I have noted little discussion of team play so any insight is much appreciated!
Quote: rainmanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXR5sKR3f-E
Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to watch it.
Quote: AZDuffmanSending a text from the table could at the least get you 86ed from the casino and possibly arrested. This could fall under "using a device" to beat the game. IMHO if you want to count, just count and play. The big-player thing doesn't work like you see in the movies. And when it did work it did not work nearly as well, and the life of the people was not one of staying in fancy rooms and having lobster for breakfast on the house because the pit boss could not figure out what was going on.
AZ I realize from reading these threads that there is a natural instinct to what to bring the newbie expectations into line, but let me clarify that I am not influenced by the ridiculous things you see in movies nor do I have illusions of becoming the next BJ Millionaire with comped luxury suites and lobster for breakfast. Rather, I am just looking for every slight advantage that I can find.
And with all due respect, I definitely have to disagree that sending a two word text which says "come play" qualifies as cheating. Using a mirror to see the dealer's upcard, that's cheating. The text is no different than any other signal. If it makes you feel better, an alternative strategy might simply be that as I "wong out" of a table with a negative count, I could then stroll by her table to see what count is there- would be able to tell just by how many chips she is betting. And vice versa. When you're lookig at all of these tables and trying to randomly pick one- how nice would it be to already know the count of one table at a glance? The job of back counting is done for you...... it's not the path to being the next Stanford Wong, but it would have to help, would it not?
Quote: IbeatyouracesSending a text to have someone join you is not cheating and alone will not get anyone 86'ed.
If you plan on having your fiancee be your BP, it's best that when she joins, for you to make an excuse and NOT play. You can give the good ploppie excuse of someone jumping in messing up the "flow" of the cards. This was one of the mistakes in the movie 21.
Interesting- with the count high, why not BOTH play though? Are you thinking that two people betting big draws too much attention?
Quote: NewAPAZ I realize from reading these threads that there is a natural instinct to what to bring the newbie expectations into line, but let me clarify that I am not influenced by the ridiculous things you see in movies nor do I have illusions of becoming the next BJ Millionaire with comped luxury suites and lobster for breakfast. Rather, I am just looking for every slight advantage that I can find.
Point made and taken on both sides.
Quote:And with all due respect, I definitely have to disagree that sending a two word text which says "come play" qualifies as cheating. Using a mirror to see the dealer's upcard, that's cheating. The text is no different than any other signal. If it makes you feel better, an alternative strategy might simply be that as I "wong out" of a table with a negative count, I could then stroll by her table to see what count is there- would be able to tell just by how many chips she is betting. And vice versa. When you're lookig at all of these tables and trying to randomly pick one- how nice would it be to already know the count of one table at a glance? The job of back counting is done for you...... it's not the path to being the next Stanford Wong, but it would have to help, would it not?
Sorry, but while I have no problem with counting this could cause problems. Breaking it down:
"Is it using a 'device?'" Yes, a c-phone is clearly and electronic device. Many casinos will not allow them nor their use at the table.
"Is it using a 'devivce to gain an advantage?'" Yes. You want to enter when a count is in your favor. You are using a device to signal yoruself to do so.
If I were the judge or on the jury, I would have to side with the casino. And one reason I would is suppose you get caught. (and I think you will fast if you do this) Security brings you both to the back-room. Suits say, "please tell us who else you have in on this?" Suit is going to assume, as I would if I caught you, that you have people strung at 3-4 tables at the lease since you need that many to make it worth the while to do this plan.
The other issue is practical. By the time you get the message and get over there the good count will probably no longer be playable. If you are going to signal, just use good ol hand signs. Leave the phones in your pocket.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBack away from the table to text. And the phone does NOT help you gain the advantage. That said, the courts could argue that your brain is in fact a "device."
I think this has already been settled. They can or cannot ban counters based on jurisdiction, but counters cannot be arrested for cheating anywhere.
Quote:I do agree tha body gestures or hand signals are better and faster.
We are so fast to use something electronic--just because you can does not mean you should.
Pretending you don't know her is only going to work a couple times at most anyway.
Quote: AZDuffmanPoint made and taken on both sides.
Sorry, but while I have no problem with counting this could cause problems. Breaking it down:
"Is it using a 'device?'" Yes, a c-phone is clearly and electronic device. Many casinos will not allow them nor their use at the table.
"Is it using a 'devivce to gain an advantage?'" Yes. You want to enter when a count is in your favor. You are using a device to signal yoruself to do so.
If I were the judge or on the jury, I would have to side with the casino. And one reason I would is suppose you get caught. (and I think you will fast if you do this) Security brings you both to the back-room. Suits say, "please tell us who else you have in on this?" Suit is going to assume, as I would if I caught you, that you have people strung at 3-4 tables at the lease since you need that many to make it worth the while to do this plan.
The other issue is practical. By the time you get the message and get over there the good count will probably no longer be playable. If you are going to signal, just use good ol hand signs. Leave the phones in your pocket.
Let me first acknowlege that my views come from a whopping one month of AP experience- you could be totally right and I am wrong, I am just trying to debate this as a means of getting to the truth.....my point isn't too be argumentative or the smartest guy in the room, it's to figure out for certain what the best strategy is.....
That said, there are several holes in your legal theories here imho. First of all, if a casino detains me in the back room under their flimsy allegations of card counting, they have no legal right to take my cell phone out of my pocket. These are not the police and while they can ask me to leave as the owner of the premise, I can absolutely refuse to give them my cell phone. and if they did do so illegally such evidence is inadmissible in court under the poisonous fruits doctrine. Even the police themselves cannot take your phone or other belongings until you have been arrested for a crime. Sending a text is not a crime, I see people taking phone calls and texting by the table all the time.
Second of all, lets suppose for a second that my phone could be confiscated by the casino. Good luck to that prosecutor who want s to prove that the text which I send my fiance that just says "love you" constitutes cheating in Blackjack. I won't text- "the count is high, come and play my table" or something similarly incriminating.
Third of all, if I said to another player walking by, "the count is high, come and play" it's not cheating, so communicating that message via cell phone isn't either imo. Having someone positioned to see a dealer hole card at another table and texting, that would be cheating. Agree to disagree on that point.
Fourth, I wouldn't stop and type the message at the table. I'd have it all ready to send and never take my phone in my pocket- I can literally send this message then just by pressing against my leg with some practice (just did it to prove to myself it can be done), there is no way that anyone could even know that I sent a text message, much less prove the meaning of said message.
All in all I have to think I am pretty safe but by all means I'd like to hear as many opinions of experienced AP's as possible.
To me, it's going to be much more conspicuous to have someone hanging around doing nothing for a lengthy period of time who then swoops in and plays big money suddenly than someone who just walks up and plays. You know how it is- it could be 30 minutes before you get a count worth swooping in for on a shoe game (I'd think +3 would be the minimum to want to do this). I know that when I just stand for more than ten minutes back counting I feel like I look suspicious as hell.
I do get your point about possibly getting their before the count is too late, but the thing is that if we play late you wouldn't even have to check your phone when you get the text just get up and leave and head directly to the table. Should only miss one hand at most. I think this is offset by the fact that by having two players going at a time, our chances of getting a great count are doubled. Also the BP could miss a hand anyway unless they are hovering over the table not playing, which would seem to be more conspicuous than anything.
Definitely appreciate anyone giving their thoughts on these complicated issues.....
Quote: FinsRuleHonestly, why are you pretending you don't know your fiance? It's the perfect cover. She plays slots, and every once in a while she randomly plays a little blackjack. She's a woman, and doesn't know much, just comes over drunk and plays $100 a hand a few times a night.
Pretending you don't know her is only going to work a couple times at most anyway.
Well you don't know my fiance, lol. I think I can get her to play disciplined at the tables, but if she has to come out to the casinos and hang out by herself and only play a few hands a night she will be bored out of her skull and want to leave in like an hour.
Just curious, what are your thoughts about us not being able to pretend not to know each other? There's got to be 30-40 BJ tables and thus probably 50 dealers on any given night. If we don't talk to each other, unless I am always playing with the same dealer who is going to see that its too much of a coincidence for us to be at the same table, how would they make the connection? Again not trying to be argumentative here just really trying to flush out the best strategy possible.......
I would probably rank scenario one as the worst team play plan I have ever heard, slightly better than yelling, “Come on in, the water's fine,” across the floor.
You have Player B at one table presumably grinding away betting the minimum, then she comes over plunking down Black late in the shoe...obvious.
It's just a matter of figuring out who the signal is, I know, how about the guy who started increasing his bets and reached into his pocket right before she came over? Further, if the count turns in the interim, then you have to have a signal for that! She comes over, count turns, she bets minimum or leaves. The same thing two or three shoes later, you go to the pocket, count does not turn, she plunks down black. She's been minimum betting for an hour at this point!
I just don't see it working for any length of time, and they're not just going to back her off, they'll want to find the signal lest he try the same thing with a different teammate.
The second plan is not as bad, but I do not see it working more than a few times. You're increasing your bets, and how is it she just HAPPENS to come over during advantageous counts?
It would be better just to play seperate tables and count. I imagine one of the only things the house likes less than counters is counters who think they are cute...
Quote: NewAPLet me throw out this question to all the readers of this site- so far I've gotten a lot of resistance to this plan in general which tells me that maybe it wasn't a great plan to begin with. Is there anyone who thinks that it IS a good plan? I've always gathered that one of the biggest drawbacks for team play was trust and thought that since this wasn't an issue with us having combined finances that there could be significant advantages if played correctly.
What the hell- go for it. While it's not a great advantage, it IS an advantage.
I'll agree with Fins that it may not be necessary for you and your fiance to act like strangers.
I often play while my wife is elsewhere in the casino. I have always told her, if she sees me
betting black, that she should automatically jump in and match my bets for a few hands.
We don't have any signaling system, an act, or anything. It's just an understanding.
I'm a just recreational/amateur KO counter, so my opinion should probably be discounted.
Quote: Mission146Quick post, mobile.
I would probably rank scenario one as the worst team play plan I have ever heard, slightly better than yelling, “Come on in, the water's fine,” across the floor.
You have Player B at one table presumably grinding away betting the minimum, then she comes over plunking down Black late in the shoe...obvious.
It's just a matter of figuring out who the signal is, I know, how about the guy who started increasing his bets and reached into his pocket right before she came over? Further, if the count turns in the interim, then you have to have a signal for that! She comes over, count turns, she bets minimum or leaves. The same thing two or three shoes later, you go to the pocket, count does not turn, she plunks down black. She's been minimum betting for an hour at this point!
I just don't see it working for any length of time, and they're not just going to back her off, they'll want to find the signal lest he try the same thing with a different teammate.
The second plan is not as bad, but I do not see it working more than a few times. You're increasing your bets, and how is it she just HAPPENS to come over during advantageous counts?
It would be better just to play seperate tables and count. I imagine one of the only things the house likes less than counters is counters who think they are cute]
A simple "wrong" would have been just fine (I am awarded zero points and may god have mercy on my soul). Ok that's fine, better for me to find out a plan is half baked on this forum than on the casino floor.
However, the part that I don't follow about your rationale is why it's so "obvious" what we are doing just because she's been betting minimum her table and then comes over and bets black at mine at the end of the shoe. How is that any different than a counter who bets the miminum and then bets black at the end of his own shoe? Isn't that equally obvious? To me, the player who bets all at one table is actually more obvious because the dealer can see what they've been betting the whole time, whereas a dealer has no idea the new player was playing table minimum at his old table. I understand that the cameras can capture all that this but at least you don't have to worry so much about the dealer busting you, for lack of a better word. Please set me straight if I am going wrong here.
Quote: NewAP
That said, there are several holes in your legal theories here imho. First of all, if a casino detains me in the back room under their flimsy allegations of card counting, they have no legal right to take my cell phone out of my pocket. These are not the police and while they can ask me to leave as the owner of the premise, I can absolutely refuse to give them my cell phone. and if they did do so illegally such evidence is inadmissible in court under the poisonous fruits doctrine. Even the police themselves cannot take your phone or other belongings until you have been arrested for a crime. Sending a text is not a crime, I see people taking phone calls and texting by the table all the time.
My and the board's points are not the "legal limbo" but practicality. Here is how it can really work.
The casino does have the right ask you to empty your pockets. Same as if security at JCPenny thinks you stole something. To get really legal, they might be supposed to wait for the cops. How long that will take and what happens will matter where you play. Here in PA there is a gaming control person and state police onsite 24/7/365 so it would take no time at all in our casinos. All they have to do is say you were suspected of cheating. You will be on tape and if they show you signaling that is realistically going to do it.
Next, you can try to say they need a warrant to search you. They would have several people watching you in a room if they had to wait the few minutes for the cops. Now comes your choice. You can show the phone and explain everything OR you can be placed under official arrest, in which case you will have your pockets emptied. And you will be a "guest of the county" until booked and released or offered bail. Then all the fun of defending yourself begins.
"Sending a text" is not a crime? Depends on the text. If the text is for commiting a crime, then yes, you could argue it is a crime. BTW: because you are using a telephone to transmit information about making/taking bets it could be a federal wire crime!
Now that the worst-case has been explained, lets talk about how it would really go down. My opinion is you have a good chance of getting caught. Woman gets asked not to use phone by dealer; guy walks up and bets big. All they need to do is run the tape and see you look at your phone and that is enough. At that point you would both be back-roomed. In the security office they will tell you what they know and they will tell you they catch people doing this all the time. Then they will ask you to come clean. Most people will be in such fear that they will. If they don't what I wrote above is possibly your fate. Then you will be read the tresspass act and told if and when you may set foot on the property. You might be allowed to go to the restaurant to get one of the sandwiches you like, you might not be allowed in the parking lot. It might be for a year, it might be forever. Then you will be escorted to the cage to cash-out and another escort to your car.
IOW, please do not try this. It is good to be thinking of advantage play, but there are better ways.
To me the advantage of acting like strangers is that we can both bet big in situations like this without drawing attention to ourselves as being in collaboration. And I still think there is no way for them to tie us together at a casino this large, so long as we aren't playing together multiple times a week or anything.
1) your a rookie and you want to make a team with your fiance who is not even a rookie? This has disaster written all over it.
2)If you can't produce results by yourself your not gonna do it with a partner.
3)exposure is the biggest problem for a counter, you must limit it. How long do you expect to last at the same casino going a couple times a week? Ill tell you, if your loosing you will last a long time. If you are winning consistantly not very long. especially if lady variance
is on your side and your winning big.
Quote: AZDuffmanMy and the board's points are not the "legal limbo" but practicality. Here is how it can really work.
The casino does have the right ask you to empty your pockets. Same as if security at JCPenny thinks you stole something. To get really legal, they might be supposed to wait for the cops. How long that will take and what happens will matter where you play. Here in PA there is a gaming control person and state police onsite 24/7/365 so it would take no time at all in our casinos. All they have to do is say you were suspected of cheating. You will be on tape and if they show you signaling that is realistically going to do it.
Next, you can try to say they need a warrant to search you. They would have several people watching you in a room if they had to wait the few minutes for the cops. Now comes your choice. You can show the phone and explain everything OR you can be placed under official arrest, in which case you will have your pockets emptied. And you will be a "guest of the county" until booked and released or offered bail. Then all the fun of defending yourself begins.
"Sending a text" is not a crime? Depends on the text. If the text is for commiting a crime, then yes, you could argue it is a crime. BTW: because you are using a telephone to transmit information about making/taking bets it could be a federal wire crime!
Now that the worst-case has been explained, lets talk about how it would really go down. My opinion is you have a good chance of getting caught. Woman gets asked not to use phone by dealer; guy walks up and bets big. All they need to do is run the tape and see you look at your phone and that is enough. At that point you would both be back-roomed. In the security office they will tell you what they know and they will tell you they catch people doing this all the time. Then they will ask you to come clean. Most people will be in such fear that they will. If they don't what I wrote above is possibly your fate. Then you will be read the tresspass act and told if and when you may set foot on the property. You might be allowed to go to the restaurant to get one of the sandwiches you like, you might not be allowed in the parking lot. It might be for a year, it might be forever. Then you will be escorted to the cage to cash-out and another escort to your car.
IOW, please do not try this. It is good to be thinking of advantage play, but there are better ways.
AZ with all due respect you have just made a damn good description of the Iraqi Justice system in the Saddam Hussein era. In your world of the all-powerful casino, I could literally scratch my nuts, someone I don't know could come over and play a few hands, Pit Boss Uday Hussein would realize that my itchy testes indicated a positive count and next thing you know I've got Bubba scratching my nuts in Maximum Security.
Just as an isolated nut scratch cannot yet be criminalized here in the USA, neither can a text to my girl that says "I love you". I wish they would backroom me, send me to jail, confiscate my property, and beat me down under these circumstances, would make for a hell of a lawsuit. The other part you are missing is that card counting just isn't illegal, so communicating about it isn't whether by cell phone, conversation, email, tweet, whatever. If you want to say you risk getting barred from the casino, sure I agree, but no hard time for keeping a count. Agree to disagree I guess.
Quote: rainmanPlease dont take this the wrong way but i have the flew it might come across a little harsh.
1) your a rookie and you want to make a team with your fiance who is not even a rookie? This has disaster written all over it.
2)If you can't produce results by yourself your not gonna do it with a partner.
3)exposure is the biggest problem for a counter, you must limit it. How long do you expect to last at the same casino going a couple times a week? Ill tell you, if your loosing you will last a long time. If you are winning consistantly not very long. especially if lady variance
is on your side and your winning big.
Ugggh...... u know I am beginning to think that card counters are the most "glass is half empty" people on earth. All of those thing are true to some extent that you said, but you can balance that out with the fact that I've played 15 years, I have played about 30-40 hours of AP with excellent results (yes, variance, I get it), so who is to say that I can't produce results by myself or with partner. I didn't say that we were going to head down to the casino tomorrow obviously much practice is needed. And she has a memory that is second to none- I won't list her academic credentials so as not to put out too much info about ourselves but they are VERY impressive. I just don't follow why our chances would be WORSE. To me your response is more about chavunism possibly. Everyone had to start somewhere.
I guess my response to you is that there are two types of people in this world- those who sit around and think of why things can't be done, and those who go out and get it done.
Quote: NewAPAZ with all due respect you have just made a damn good description of the Iraqi Justice system in the Saddam Hussein era. In your world of the all-powerful casino, I could literally scratch my nuts, someone I don't know could come over and play a few hands, Pit Boss Uday Hussein would realize that my itchy testes indicated a positive count and next thing you know I've got Bubba scratching my nuts in Maximum Security.
This is how casino-justice operates, they are private entities, not the government bound by the constitution. Welcome to the group, BTW.
Quote:The other part you are missing is that card counting just isn't illegal, so communicating about it isn't whether by cell phone, conversation, email, tweet, whatever. If you want to say you risk getting barred from the casino, sure I agree, but no hard time for keeping a count. Agree to disagree I guess.
You are missing the point. Counting is not illegal anywhere in the USA. It might get you barred, but you cannot be arrested for counting and moving your bet with the count. But you are talking about "transmitting information about a game electronically" also "using an electronic device to gain an advantage" and that IS illegal in any USA casino AFIK. You are also talking about collusion in a game, also (probably) violates some laws almost anywhere.
Please don't assume communicating about a legal activity is not illegal. When you communicate to collude it can be. American Airlinnes and United have every legal right to set their prices. If they communicate to each other about setting them to each other then it is a crime.
Quote: AZDuffmanThis is how casino-justice operates, they are private entities, not the government bound by the constitution. Welcome to the group, BTW.
You are missing the point. Counting is not illegal anywhere in the USA. It might get you barred, but you cannot be arrested for counting and moving your bet with the count. But you are talking about "transmitting information about a game electronically" also "using an electronic device to gain an advantage" and that IS illegal in any USA casino AFIK. You are also talking about collusion in a game, also (probably) violates some laws almost anywhere.
.
Show me the statute. I still believe that your paranoia has run amuck. One thing you have never explained is how the text message that says "I love you" can be to my fiance could be argued by anyone to be a signal, even if the rest of what you say was correct which I don't believe it to be.
Quote: NewAPShow me the statute. I still believe that your paranoia has run amuck. One thing you have never explained is how the text message that says "I love you" can be to my fiance could be argued by anyone to be a signal, even if the rest of what you say was correct which I don't believe it to be.
It can be constituted as a signal by conditions before and your actions after it was sent. Just like a dope dealer might say, "I have to take the dog to the vet at 2:00, it will cost me $2000" might be connected to mean, "2 Kilos, and I will pay $20,000." If they can break the code you are done for. And again, you do not have to be convicvted for them to make this cost a multitude of times what you might make.
It is not paranoia if it is true. Read around the site and see where people have been hassled for even taking a picture. I'm not pulling legal statutes and giving a detailed opinion on a chat board. I am telling you what can and might happen when you get caught.
"hey i am over here at so and so a table" would be upheld as criminal act.
i do think it is pointless to go through with a charade of not knowing each other,
as that would require staying apart the entire time, arriving and leaving separately and playing without players' cards.
i have often done the exact thing you described over the course of 25+ years and have never had much of a problem.
the worst thing likely to happen is that they will try controlling your bet level or shuffle up early.
at the same level as the "pros" roaming this forum, that DOESN'T mean
he (and his fiance) cannot have an edge.
It's been interesting joining this forum today. Threw out a few questions about blackjack tactics that I thought were well thought out after doing about as much research before playing AP as I could possibly do, and half the folks think I should try flipping burgers instead, and the other half is taking up a collection to buy me soap-on-a-roap.
Quote: NewAP
It's been interesting joining this forum today. Threw out a few questions about blackjack tactics that I thought were well thought out after doing about as much research before playing AP as I could possibly do, and half the folks think I should try flipping burgers instead, and the other half is taking up a collection to buy me soap-on-a-roap.
We are an interesting crew, you have to give us that.
Quote: NewAPUgggh...... u know I am beginning to think that card counters are the most "glass is half empty" people on earth.
You said it yourself: variance and heat. It makes people cynical.
Like somebody once said, figuring out how to win is the
easy part. Figuring out how to get them to let you get away
with winning, not so easy.
Quote: NewAPAZ with all due respect you have just made a damn good description of the Iraqi Justice system in the Saddam Hussein era. In your world of the all-powerful casino, I could literally scratch my nuts, someone I don't know could come over and play a few hands, Pit Boss Uday Hussein would realize that my itchy testes indicated a positive count and next thing you know I've got Bubba scratching my nuts in Maximum Security.
Just as an isolated nut scratch cannot yet be criminalized here in the USA, neither can a text to my girl that says "I love you". I wish they would backroom me, send me to jail, confiscate my property, and beat me down under these circumstances, would make for a hell of a lawsuit. The other part you are missing is that card counting just isn't illegal, so communicating about it isn't whether by cell phone, conversation, email, tweet, whatever. If you want to say you risk getting barred from the casino, sure I agree, but no hard time for keeping a count. Agree to disagree I guess.
No backrooming nowadays. Just a back-off, expulsion, or if really cheating, being detained for the cops. Boring!
It seems part of the "juice" or illicit excitement of gambling for many people comes not from the game itself, but from trying to break the rules, or pull some shenanigans, which will be appropriately handled to the casino operator's guidelines. Good.
The concept of using a casino or gambling Hall for recreation or for clean gambling is the correct posture. Using a casino to "perpetrate some sort of Murphy or AP scam" is really not going to avail anyone very well in the long haul.
Calling in via text message is extremely unlikely to cause you any problems from a legal perspective. While a very bored lawyer may try to look at angles here, no casino would try this because their lawyers are not bored (and thus, very expensive), and those lawyers know that there's approximately a 0% chance of a successful prosecution here. It's seriously a non-issue. However, I agree with the posters who said that it is impractical. Counts are less volatile in multi-deck games than they are in single and even double-deck games, but you are still putting a huge gap between your call-in and the arrival at the table. There's some published work on this, but the bottom line is that you need your BP to get to the table as soon as possible. Sending a text is inefficient and obvious.
Not knowing your fiancée is going to look weird when you're the person always at the table with her when she makes big bets! Having a fiancée as a playing partner is one of the strongest positions you can be in if you're willing to brainstorm. You're on your own here, but spend some time thinking about it and maybe reading a few books that talk in detail about team play. I do also agree with the thought that it would be unwise to try this approach before even establishing a winning record as a solo player. Team play is much harder than it seems, and the type of team play you describe has fewer benefits than you may think. Don't rule it out completely, but also don't jump into anything without adequate preparation.
False. Backrooming happens all the time, and even in cases where APs are smart enough to know that they don't have to follow casino personnel anywhere, the "we need to talk to you, can you follow us please?" line is used frequently. I've even heard, "we need to speak with you in the back room for a moment!" It's certainly less common (and more costly for casinos, hence the less common) than it was fifteen years ago, but it happens somewhat regularly nonetheless.Quote: PaigowdanNo backrooming nowadays. Just a back-off, expulsion, or if really cheating, being detained for the cops. Boring!
Quote: LonesomeGamblerFalse. Backrooming happens all the time, and even in cases where APs are smart enough to know that they don't have to follow casino personnel anywhere
At least you would hope they're that smart. A casino
can't force you into a back room anymore than my
barber or my grocery store could. Just because security
guards look like the police, they're not.
Oh, no! Another law student slash lawyer! AZDuffman is by and large correct: the 4th amendment does not apply in casinos. They can and will take your shit, and judges will back them up (especially in Nevada). AQuote: NewAPThese are not the police and while they can ask me to leave as the owner of the premise, I can absolutely refuse to give them my cell phone. and if they did do so illegally such evidence is inadmissible in court under the poisonous fruits doctrine. Even the police themselves cannot take your phone or other belongings until you have been arrested for a crime.
Also, poisonous fruits requires another level of evidentiary gathering (e.g., they took the cell phone illegally and used the text messages in the phone to find your stash). Simple exclusionary rule would suffice. (I do remember a bit of Crim. Pro.)
Quote: NewAP
A simple "wrong" would have been just fine (I am awarded zero points and may god have mercy on my soul). Ok that's fine, better for me to find out a plan is half baked on this forum than on the casino floor.
However, the part that I don't follow about your rationale is why it's so "obvious" what we are doing just because she's been betting minimum her table and then comes over and bets black at mine at the end of the shoe. How is that any different than a counter who bets the miminum and then bets black at the end of his own shoe? Isn't that equally obvious? To me, the player who bets all at one table is actually more obvious because the dealer can see what they've been betting the whole time, whereas a dealer has no idea the new player was playing table minimum at his old table. I understand that the cameras can capture all that this but at least you don't have to worry so much about the dealer busting you, for lack of a better word. Please set me straight if I am going wrong here.
I apologize if I came off as too harsh, I'm a pretty easy-going guy, honestly. However, it's not enough for me to simply say, "That won't really work," without presenting arguments that assert my position.
The reason it's going to be obvious is because she's going to go from betting minimum to betting black while you are simultaneously increasing your bets and you have reached into your pocket. It might not be obvious the first time, I'm not saying that, but I am saying that your time is limited.
The advantage (assuming you count well and she counts as well) to just playing two separate tables, straight-up, is that if one of you gets backed off from the BJ Tables the other one can still go the casino. Did you not mention that the casino is a fifteen minute drive for you and the next nearest one is two hours?
I guess you wouldn't have to worry about the dealer busting her, so much, but you will have to still worry about the dealer busting you, and if they've got you, they've got her. The reason being is they are going to look for any activity (suspicious or not) towards the end of favorable shoes. They're also going to run a skills check on both of you because, if it turns out you suck at basic strategy (which I doubt) they won't really be too intimidated by your counting abilities.
Anyway, they're watching the end of your shoes and they see her come into the table late. She's plunking down black (and has this happened more than once already?) so they rewind the tape and see that she was plugging away at a different table betting minimum. Why did she move? Why is she now painting it black? They freeze-frame and slow motion the tables from just before she moved and your table, they see you reach into your pocket, busted!
The point is that if you insist on doing it this way, if they get one of you, they'll have both of you. If you guys enter seperately and count seperately at seperate tables, then I seriously doubt you would both be backed off simultaneously.
I think that your second idea might work a little better, but I would suggest not to try that more than once/night and have her bet HUGE! Further, you should continue to play after she leaves the table, make sure she goes back to $0.25 slots or wherever she came from. I should also make you aware that whatever EV edge you hope to gain may well be eaten up by your negative EV during bad/neutral counts as well as the negative ER on her slots play. The positive EV you are going to get from the counting is going to be mitigated even more than usual, so keep that in mind.
When I say once/night I mean, "One shoe per night," I would try this team play twice/month at most.
Quote: NewAPIt's been interesting joining this forum today. Threw out a few questions about blackjack tactics that I thought were well thought out after doing about as much research before playing AP as I could possibly do, and half the folks think I should try flipping burgers instead, and the other half is taking up a collection to buy me soap-on-a-roap.
I'm not saying that, I say count, by all means, count. Get your girlfriend, get your friends, get your parents (apologies if either/both are no longer with us) get everyone you know and I would encourage you to count if you are trying to supplement your income. I'm saying do not try to do the team signal thing, especially not as a two-person team, if they have one of you, they have you both.
Quote: LonesomeGamblerI'll keep this one brief:
Calling in via text message is extremely unlikely to cause you any problems from a legal perspective. While a very bored lawyer may try to look at angles here, no casino would try this because their lawyers are not bored (and thus, very expensive), and those lawyers know that there's approximately a 0% chance of a successful prosecution here. It's seriously a non-issue. However, I agree with the posters who said that it is impractical. Counts are less volatile in multi-deck games than they are in single and even double-deck games, but you are still putting a huge gap between your call-in and the arrival at the table. There's some published work on this, but the bottom line is that you need your BP to get to the table as soon as possible. Sending a text is inefficient and obvious.
Not knowing your fiancée is going to look weird when you're the person always at the table with her when she makes big bets! Having a fiancée as a playing partner is one of the strongest positions you can be in if you're willing to brainstorm. You're on your own here, but spend some time thinking about it and maybe reading a few books that talk in detail about team play. I do also agree with the thought that it would be unwise to try this approach before even establishing a winning record as a solo player. Team play is much harder than it seems, and the type of team play you describe has fewer benefits than you may think. Don't rule it out completely, but also don't jump into anything without adequate preparation.
As usual, Lonesome seems to be the "wise man" of the these forums, thanks for the input. I think that at this point I am going to continue to play alone based on many reservations, and I'm not certain that she really has the time necessary to teach her.
Quote: Mission146I apologize if I came off as too harsh, I'm a pretty easy-going guy, honestly. However, it's not enough for me to simply say, "That won't really work," without presenting arguments that assert my position.
The reason it's going to be obvious is because she's going to go from betting minimum to betting black while you are simultaneously increasing your bets and you have reached into your pocket. It might not be obvious the first time, I'm not saying that, but I am saying that your time is limited.
The advantage (assuming you count well and she counts as well) to just playing two separate tables, straight-up, is that if one of you gets backed off from the BJ Tables the other one can still go the casino. Did you not mention that the casino is a fifteen minute drive for you and the next nearest one is two hours?
I guess you wouldn't have to worry about the dealer busting her, so much, but you will have to still worry about the dealer busting you, and if they've got you, they've got her. The reason being is they are going to look for any activity (suspicious or not) towards the end of favorable shoes. They're also going to run a skills check on both of you because, if it turns out you suck at basic strategy (which I doubt) they won't really be too intimidated by your counting abilities.
Anyway, they're watching the end of your shoes and they see her come into the table late. She's plunking down black (and has this happened more than once already?) so they rewind the tape and see that she was plugging away at a different table betting minimum. Why did she move? Why is she now painting it black? They freeze-frame and slow motion the tables from just before she moved and your table, they see you reach into your pocket, busted!
The point is that if you insist on doing it this way, if they get one of you, they'll have both of you. If you guys enter seperately and count seperately at seperate tables, then I seriously doubt you would both be backed off simultaneously.
I think that your second idea might work a little better, but I would suggest not to try that more than once/night and have her bet HUGE! Further, you should continue to play after she leaves the table, make sure she goes back to $0.25 slots or wherever she came from. I should also make you aware that whatever EV edge you hope to gain may well be eaten up by your negative EV during bad/neutral counts as well as the negative ER on her slots play. The positive EV you are going to get from the counting is going to be mitigated even more than usual, so keep that in mind.
When I say once/night I mean, "One shoe per night," I would try this team play twice/month at most.
No apology needed, thanks for the input. To me, with my limited experience, all AP activity seems super-obvious, I think it's just a matter of how tough the casino and/or individual dealer chooses to look at it based on monetary your level of play. Human nature is human nature, some dealers may just look the other way b/c they dislike confrontation and or out of pure apathy. Could be wrong here but that's my read on it. Now obviously, if you played the same dealer table every day using the same tactics, that would be a different story- but the sense I had from playing was that my dealers had to know but were looking the other way- at least when I played one on one. Speaking at a business owner, I can tell you the last thing you want is any drama with the public- so my gut is that many casinos tolerate this behavior since the advantage is slight and non-existent in many cases since most players can't execute it as well as they think they can, if the stakes are relatively small. Not worth the bad vibes of starting a confrontational situation with a customer for the rest of the table and other tables to go back and talk to their friends about. The last thing they want is to give the public the impression that it's like the movie Casino, you go down there and win and they are going to rough you up for it- as they said in that movie, Vegas (and other casinos) are like Disneyworld now (I realize that exceptions exist). Now if you were spreading 100-1200 per hand, different story, no doubt. But that's just an educated guess. This is where I think being liked will go a long way in terms of improving longevity.....
So if being liked is part of them looking the other way, then as someone pointed out earlier, I suppose that team play is going to be looked at as much more of a hustle and an attack on the casino, and be much harder for dealers/pit bosses to overlook.
Quote: NewAPThe last thing they want is to give the public the impression that it's like the movie Casino, you go down there and win and they are going to rough you up for it- as they said in that movie, Vegas (and other casinos) are like Disneyworld now (I realize that exceptions exist). Now if you were spreading 100-1200 per hand, different story, no doubt. But that's just an educated guess. This is where I think being liked will go a long way in terms of improving longevity.....
I agree they do not want people to think of the hammer scene in "Casino" but my take is they do not mind a certain mystique of "what if" to their back rooms. BTW: At least when I say "back-roomed" I just mean a trip to a security office, off the floor. They don't beat people there, but they do take your pic and read you the tresspass act, same as retail stores do shoplifters. I'm sure most of the others here mean the same thing.
Hope you enjoyed your first day here and hope you stay around.
Quote: LonesomeGamblerI'll keep this one brief:
Calling in via text message is extremely unlikely to cause you any problems from a legal perspective. While a very bored lawyer may try to look at angles here, no casino would try this because their lawyers are not bored (and thus, very expensive), and those lawyers know that there's approximately a 0% chance of a successful prosecution here. It's seriously a non-issue. However, I agree with the posters who said that it is impractical. Counts are less volatile in multi-deck games than they are in single and even double-deck games, but you are still putting a huge gap between your call-in and the arrival at the table. There's some published work on this, but the bottom line is that you need your BP to get to the table as soon as possible. Sending a text is inefficient and obvious.
Not knowing your fiancée is going to look weird when you're the person always at the table with her when she makes big bets! Having a fiancée as a playing partner is one of the strongest positions you can be in if you're willing to brainstorm. You're on your own here, but spend some time thinking about it and maybe reading a few books that talk in detail about team play. I do also agree with the thought that it would be unwise to try this approach before even establishing a winning record as a solo player. Team play is much harder than it seems, and the type of team play you describe has fewer benefits than you may think. Don't rule it out completely, but also don't jump into anything without adequate preparation.
I agree with LG...it's a worthwhile pursuit, but it's harder than it sounds and you will have to figure out what works for the two of you.
