Most common mistake players make that deviate from Basic Strategy
#1 Taking even money on a blackjack. This is by far the most common error I see players making at the table. I would say more than 95% of players maybe even higher take even money with a BJ and a dealer ace showing. Have had many discussions with players and dealers about this and almost everyone thinks its stupid not to take even money. It's such simple math too. 4/13 chance of blackjack with dealer ace, yet a payout of 3/2. Even money is one of the worst sucker plays in the casino (7.47% house edge with 8 decks). I find it hilarious that many of these same players will never take insurance and say its a sucker bet, yet always take even money, when in reality it's the exact same thing as taking insurance.
#2 Not hitting soft 18 against a dealer 9, 10 or A. This is another play that I rarely if ever see players do. Always get funny looks when I hit my soft 18, especially against a 9.
#3 Not hitting 12 against a dealer 3. I would say this is another play I rarely see players make. Against a dealer 2 I do see a fair amount of players hit, but against a 3 almost never. Always get strange looks when I hit against a 3. Players saying 3 is a bust card, why would you hit ect.....
#4 Players incorrectly doubling or not doubling on soft hand totals. Most players that think they have decent knowledge of Basic strategy don't ever seem to know what soft totals to hit or double on correctly. Often see players doubling on soft 13's and 14's against dealer 2's and 3's, yet won't double soft 17's or 18's against the same upcards.
#5 Players standing on 16 against a dealer 7. This is another play that often baffles me. These same players will always hit 16 against a face or Ace, but yet won't hit against a 7. Standing against a face card makes alot more sense and is often even the right play depending on the count, yet standing against a 7 is almost always incorrect regardless of the count.
The even money proposition must be one of the biggest money makers in the casino and it seems like everyone is brainwashed into thinking this is the right play. Even alot of dealers that I converse with while playing and have a pretty good understanding of basic strategy can't seem to grasp the concept of even money and insurance being the exact same thing. Most people use the logic of it being a guaranteed win and only think of the current hand and don't see that they will lose money in the long run. I have actually stopped trying to convince people that even money is a bad play because everyone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about, saying that not taking even money is being greedy. Often get looks from dealers too, when I decline even money.
Quote: aceofspadesIf you had a pumpkin up and got a blackjack with a dealer Ace - would you take even money?
Hell no. Why would I? The only possible way I might ever comtemplate taking even money would be for some odd reason I had a life changing amount of money on a single bet, let's say $1 Million. Even though its still the wrong play, the benefits of winning 1 Million over say taking the chance of winning $1.5 million or pushing are far outweighed by a guaranteed Million. Only in life changing circumstances could I see making the mathematically wrong move. In this scenario the chance of winning an extra $500,000 would not be worth risking $1 Million.
Quote: aceofspadesIt is amazing to see how many forum embers do not see $1k as a substantial sum of money...
The bigger the bet, the more costly the error.
I've seen otherwise knowledgeable dealers advise it.
>#2 Not hitting soft 18 against a dealer 9, 10 or A.
Understandable.
>#3 Not hitting 12 against a dealer 3.
I hit 12 against dealers 2 but not against dealers 3.
Always thought that was right... but I usually play where dealers hit on a sot 17.
>#4 Players incorrectly doubling or not doubling on soft hand totals.
Yeah, if you deal me an Ace today I will realize its a soft hand tomorrow.
>5 Players standing on 16 against a dealer 7.
Yep, ... again. I probably would too.
Quote: aceofspadesIt is amazing to see how many forum embers do not see $1k as a substantial sum of money...
Never said 1K is not a substantial amount of money, because it is, but it's not a life changing amount. I usually play in the $25-50$ a hand range and though i'm not a card counter. I do use the Ace-five strategy and will somtimes bet $200-$300 a hand if things are going really well and there are alot of aces left in the deck.
Another error you see alot of players making is over betting their bankroll and when they are down to their last chip, the have a perfect opportunity to double or split, but can't because they have no money left. I always make sure I have enough left on me to always make sure i'm able to double or split when needed. If I don't have enough left on me, Ill leave the table.
The other 98.9% of the time, never.
Quote: teddysWhen I had my $150 bet up at Bally's, had I gotten a A-10 with a dealer A, I would have taken even money in a heartbeat. I don't care what anyone says. If you have a big bet out and are just looking to get out with a win, even money is the best option. (Not card counting, of course).
The other 98.9% of the time, never.
This logic makes absolutely no sense. Your thinking way too much in the short term. Over your lifetime how many times have you taken even money on big bets because you were scared of pushing the hand. Take all those times you took even money and multiply that by 7.5% and that is the expected amount of money you have given up. So lets say during your life you have had 10 bets of $150 where you took even money instead of playing it out. Thats $1500 worth of bets x 7.5% which = $112.50 in expected loss that you have given up by taking even money.
Exactly zero.Quote: harvey16Over your lifetime how many times have you taken even money on big bets because you were scared of pushing the hand.
Zero times zero = $0, if my math is correct :PQuote:Take all those times you took even money and multiply that by 7.5% and that is the expected amount of money you have given up. So lets say during your life you have had 10 bets of $150 where you took even money instead of playing it out. That's $1500 worth of bets x 7.5% which = $112.50 in expected loss that you have given up by taking even money.
I'm not really arguing with you. I'm making my own, slightly tangential point. Insurance is never a good bet, unless the true count is +3 or higher. That said, even without card counting, in bizarre situations even money can be an okay bet.
Even Arnold Snyder has said he has taken even money in sub-optimal counts when he had a big bet out and just wanted to get out with a win (heat, made a win goal, etc.). It's a variance-reducing play that you could make, but only rarely.
Quote: teddysExactly zero.
Zero times zero = $0, if my math is correct :P
I'm not really arguing with you. I'm making my own, slightly tangential point. Insurance is never a good bet, unless the true count is +3 or higher. That said, even without card counting, in bizarre situations even money can be an okay bet.
Even Arnold Snyder has said he has taken even money in sub-optimal counts when he had a big bet out and just wanted to get out with a win (heat, made a win goal, etc.). It's a variance-reducing play that you could make, but only rarely.
Knowing what I know now from this website, I will never take even money again. This has a huge house advantage as you have stated. That being said, look around the next time you are at the casino at how many people are playing games with high HA for a long period of time. They will all lose much more than the blackjack player who otherwise plays basic strategy but makes this mistake, especially given how infrequent the situation arises. For every time this happens there are thousands of spins being played on slot machines all throughout the casino with significantly higher house advantages.
Doubling 9 and 10 against an Ace. Gamblers like to send their money to die. Wong says double 10 against the A at +3 or better, but most just do it everytime. Alot of people double every 11 against the Ace. In positive counts they're right, but they're just positive they wanna do it everytime.
Splitting 6s against a 2. People dont realize how often that deuce gets made. Gamblers never seem to do the right thing against that deuce. Players often double everything soft up to soft 17. Most of the misplays I see are on the 2. Alot of gamblers that preach the book stay on their 12s. A good amount of times that's the right play, but they dont know when those times are.
Doubling 4s against a 2-6. Supposed to double 8 against 6 if it's +1 or higher and against 5 if it's +3. Someone that isn't counting should never consider that move. That old phrase "never split anything that starts with an F" pisses me off.
Doubling 7. Idiotic. Usually a gambler thats on a heater.
There's a few more, can't think of them right now; I really see too much blackjack. And we hit soft 17, if you were wondering.
Quote: EazyMoneyI deal only blackjack and see about 40+ hours of it a week. Some of the gross misplays i see every day that weren't mentioned....
Doubling 9 and 10 against an Ace. Gamblers like to send their money to die. Wong says double 10 against the A at +3 or better, but most just do it everytime. Alot of people double every 11 against the Ace. In positive counts they're right, but they're just positive they wanna do it everytime.
Splitting 6s against a 2. People dont realize how often that deuce gets made. Gamblers never seem to do the right thing against that deuce. Players often double everything soft up to soft 17. Most of the misplays I see are on the 2. Alot of gamblers that preach the book stay on their 12s. A good amount of times that's the right play, but they dont know when those times are.
Doubling 4s against a 2-6. Supposed to double 8 against 6 if it's +1 or higher and against 5 if it's +3. Someone that isn't counting should never consider that move. That old phrase "never split anything that starts with an F" pisses me off.
Doubling 7. Idiotic. Usually a gambler thats on a heater.
There's a few more, can't think of them right now; I really see too much blackjack. And we hit soft 17, if you were wondering.
If you play or deal long enough, you will have seen everything. I've seen a guy double a hard 6 against a 10 and win. This is why I don't understand why some casino's are so paranoid about counters. They made so much money off players that make idiotic moves, the amount of money they lose to a very small percentage of players that can actually count properly is a drop in the bucket. I would be curious to know what the HA is against the average player playing blackjack. I would say less than 10% of players play basic strategy properly. I'm a recreational gambler and while I don't count cards, I do play perfect basic strategy which is rare for most players.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNo, unless, the true count is +3 or higher or I knew 100% there is a 10 in the hole.
60% should be enough
Quote: EazyMoneyI deal only blackjack and see about 40+ hours of it a week. Some of the gross misplays i see every day that weren't mentioned....
Those are gross misplays only because you know the correct strategy. 80% of dealers only know the absolute easiest strategy (stand 12-16 against 2-6, hit against 7-A). 4% of dealers probably know most of the rules, while <1% know perfect strategy for the game they are dealing.
What about the other 15%? These dealers are the ones who are convinced Basic Strategy was written by the house to make players lose more money. They will ENCOURAGE players to make bad plays, sometimes SCOLDING those who make the correct ones (especially if the person "took the bust card"). Casinos don't require their dealers to know the rules, and probably want the ones who promote side bets, even money on BJ and make stupid plays on those games as much as possible.
Both the OP and EazyMoney seem really surprised by these mistakes, but truth is, even a perfect BS player may make the wrong move if they are not counting. I agree a lot of what has been addressed are truly bonehead moves, but if everybody played perfect BJ, then all the games would pay 6:5, since the casino wouldn't be making much money on them.
Only a couple of times have I ever played at a table where everybody was playing perfect strategy. It's nice to have it that way, since you feel more like a team, but I've played a lot of BJ (though I've taken a moratorium on the game) and both times I can think of were at the Par-a-dice in East Peoria.
Quote: EazyMoney
Splitting 6s against a 2. People dont realize how often that deuce gets made.
yet ANOTHER BJ dealer unaware of basic:
splitting 6's against 2 always in single and double deck,
splitting 6's against 2 if DAS, multi-deck
Quote: EazyMoneyI deal only blackjack and see about 40+ hours of it a week. Some of the gross misplays i see every day that weren't mentioned....
Doubling 9 and 10 against an Ace. Gamblers like to send their money to die. Wong says double 10 against the A at +3 or better, but most just do it everytime. Alot of people double every 11 against the Ace. In positive counts they're right, but they're just positive they wanna do it everytime.
Splitting 6s against a 2. People dont realize how often that deuce gets made. Gamblers never seem to do the right thing against that deuce. Players often double everything soft up to soft 17. Most of the misplays I see are on the 2. Alot of gamblers that preach the book stay on their 12s. A good amount of times that's the right play, but they dont know when those times are.
Doubling 4s against a 2-6. Supposed to double 8 against 6 if it's +1 or higher and against 5 if it's +3. Someone that isn't counting should never consider that move. That old phrase "never split anything that starts with an F" pisses me off.
Doubling 7. Idiotic. Usually a gambler thats on a heater.
There's a few more, can't think of them right now; I really see too much blackjack. And we hit soft 17, if you were wondering.
EasyMoney called these misplays, but they are correct Basic Strategy:
Double 11 vs Ace, in a H17 game
Split 6's vs 2
Quote: aceofspadesIf you had a pumpkin up and got a blackjack with a dealer Ace - would you take even money?
If I am betting $X on a hand of blackjack, there is an implicit understanding that this is not so life altering an amount of money that winning $X will impact my lifestyle less positively than losing $X will impact my lifestyle negatively. In other words, $X has to be so small an amount that the utility of winning or losing it is virtually identical; otherwise, I wouldn't be gambling with $X, I'd be paying bills with it.
The only time I would ever happily hedge against a risk I couldn't afford to take in the long run is if I was betting so substantial an amount of money on one hand that it would devastate me to lose, but would be merely "cool" to win.
Note that contests where you win "one hand at $X at blackjack" fit into that category. If I won a "we'll supply $100,000 for one hand at blackjack, you get it all if you win and get nothing if you lose" contest, you bet your ass I'd take even money on a blackjack. Hell, I'd probably surrender any hard 12-16 or soft 12-16 and get my lawyer on the speed dial to make sure I get the other $50k, and if I had a doubling or splitting hand, I'd be pulling out the briefcase of paper I loaned from the bank ("I'll only invest this if I can guarantee a 10%+ ROI, here's how I can guranatee the ROI) and demanding I get to double. But this is a rare, fringe, extreme case.
In the general case, I stand by what I said above: if I can afford to bed $X on a hand, I can afford to make the strategy choice that's 7% better on a hand I literally can not lose on.
Quote: WongBoyet ANOTHER BJ dealer unaware of basic:
splitting 6's against 2 always in single and double deck,
splitting 6's against 2 if DAS, multi-deck
Thank you.
Quote: WupperEasyMoney called these misplays, but they are correct Basic Strategy:
Double 11 vs Ace, in a H17 game
Split 6's vs 2
And you.
Quote: harvey16If you play or deal long enough, you will have seen everything. I've seen a guy double a hard 6 against a 10 and win. This is why I don't understand why some casino's are so paranoid about counters. They made so much money off players that make idiotic moves, the amount of money they lose to a very small percentage of players that can actually count properly is a drop in the bucket. I would be curious to know what the HA is against the average player playing blackjack. I would say less than 10% of players play basic strategy properly. I'm a recreational gambler and while I don't count cards, I do play perfect basic strategy which is rare for most players.
Where I work, the six deck games have about a .6% house edge, but I was talking to my boss, and they said they think actual loss by players is about 1.5%, so nearly 3X more! Yeah bad play counts for alot. Even money on BJ is probably the largest contributing factor.
I love hearing "the pros" trying to teach a kid how they should play. "Never take insurance, that's a sucker bet" .. a few hands later.. "BLACKJACK! ALRIGHT! Ah, shit, an Ace. Give me even money."
I think most people don't realize it's the same thing as insurance. But the even money plays perfectly into the gambling mentality. Instance gratification. They want their money right now, rather than losing less over the course of a year.
Quote: aceofspadesIt is amazing to see how many forum embers do not see $1k as a substantial sum of money...
When $1000 means that much, you don't bet $500 on one hand.
The two most common ones I've seen are special cases:
Doubling on 11 against a dealer's ace on a S17 table
Standing on hard 16 against a dealer's 10 on a three-deck or larger table
They finally relented as he still demanded his one card for a double. The Dealer turned the card and it was an ACE.
The guy collected, got up and left. I merely said "looks like the guy knew what he was doing".
I believe basic strategy is intended to be the correct play only when NOT counting !
I can understand it when the 3/2 game is $10 or $15. It's not the 6 that draws such players, it's the $5
Hell, lets say 10 dollars table. Full 7 players table. For simplicity sakes , lets say 52 hands an hours and I play for 5 hours.
260 decisons. BJ I in 20, dealer Ace, 1 in 13. 13X20 =260
Even Money = 3.9%HE $10 bet = 39 cents or 8 cents per hour played.
Hell give me my $10 and let me get on with my life !!!!!
Quote: buzzpaffWhy all thevfuss about taking even money? Most players are just playing a few hours at $5 table when then can find one.
Hell, lets say 10 dollars table. Full 7 players table. For simplicity sakes , lets say 52 hands an hours and I play for 5 hours.
260 decisons. BJ I in 20, dealer Ace, 1 in 13. 13X20 =260
Even Money = 3.9%HE $10 bet = 39 cents or 8 cents per hour played.
Hell give me my $10 and let me get on with my life !!!!!
actually even money = approx 7.5% HE in a 6 or 8 deck game. If you only play blackjack maybe once or twice a year, over your lifetime it won't cost you much, especially if you are making $5 bets, but you see players that play all the time and with fairly big money $25/$50 a hand that always take even money. Over the course of their lifetime this likely costs them thousands of $'s in expected returns.
P.S. I am no math genius and these numbers are just a close approximation as I have rounded. Please let me know if this is correct. Wizard, you can feel free to chime in.
Quote: aceofspadesIf you had a pumpkin up and got a blackjack with a dealer Ace - would you take even money?
Many times I have, yes.
While you can make the argument that over the long run, it's not the correct play to make, there are times when you're more focused on the short-term and taking even money to help avoid a total bust-out may be what's needed to give you a chance for a comeback- a chance you may not have had if you didn't take insurance.
If you are a dedicated, disciplined AP with the bankroll and have a long-term perspective, probably not the best thing to do.
If you sometimes aggressively bet higher stakes, I can see taking the more "conservative" approach. People may scoff, but I've had a few great comebacks that may not have occurred if I strictly followed what I was "supposed" to do.
You win for now. I mentioned to the Wizard when we met for dinner last trip, as I was walking to meet him at the Venetian I passed through Caesars Palace and the Palace Court table games area. Their blackjack games are not spectacular, so I just passed through to watch the tables. I watched one player playing two hands for a while. She was not a good player, but not terrible either. Maybe $25-$200 average bet. All of a sudden she was dealt A-9 and asked to double! The dealer did it without trying to talk her out of it for a second. Of course, she lost. And this is how they keep the fountains on, people.Quote: duffytootxI have the ALL TIME bad play. Years ago when I played 3 hands per game, I was playing at the Union Plaza and over the course of 3 to 4 hours I doubled, split , split, doubled many, many times. The gentleman playing at first base was quite under the influence. It didn't seem like he could catch a decent hand as I best recall and he was strictly making flat bets. All of the sudden he caught two face cards ( I don't remember what the dealer had). He ask to double this hand. Everyone tried to discourage him. The dealer, pit boss and one other player at the table. I rarely offer advice at a table (unless it's my wife).
They finally relented as he still demanded his one card for a double. The Dealer turned the card and it was an ACE.
The guy collected, got up and left. I merely said "looks like the guy knew what he was doing".
Quote: buzzpaffIt's not the 6 that draws such players, it's the $5
Very well put. I recall the jam packed 6:5 pit with low minimum tables and the 3:2 pit with signs galore about no mid shoe entry and seats galore available at I think it was 25 or 50 minimum.
At five or ten dollars, I'd choose 6:5 too. Even in a casino without free cocktails.
Those fountains run on the booze she consumed that made her think she had TEN instead of TWENTY. She probably knew she should double on 10 as long as the dealer's card is less than 10.Quote: teddysAll of a sudden she was dealt A-9 and asked to double! The dealer did it without trying to talk her out of it for a second. Of course, she lost. And this is how they keep the fountains on, people.
Its like that dealer's memoirs from eons ago when the Mob ran Vegas. Wife sent Rich Drunk Husband to the Craps Table while she played Blackjack with Dealer eventually managing to schedule the Dealer for a Quickie up in her room at the end of which she announced she was a rich wife who wanted to become a widow and would Dealer use is Vegas connections to send a hitman to Texas for her. Over the years things may have changed alot but its still a world where the Players have expectations that are totally different from the reality of what really happens in Vegas.
Quote: FleaStiff6 deck at Indian casinos... but it really doesn't matter if its six or eight decks... if its 6:5 that's an insurmountable hurdle.
The difference in HE by the number of decks is less with 6:5 than 3:2, since a good part of the advantage with SD is an increased chance in getting a blackjack (and the dealer being less likely to have one at the same time). Most of the rest of the advantage comes from the fact that many double-down hands consist of smaller cards, and thus you are more likely to get a good big card after doubling with SD.
Quote: harvey16#1 Taking even money on a blackjack.
I don't play BJ often and don't know what this is...but reading this thread I can guess. Let me know if there is more to it.
I get dealt a BJ, the dealer is showing an ACE - I have the option to ask for even money rather than the 3:2 payout? And the risk is that if the dealer also has blackjack, it will be a push right?
it seems to my feeble memory, that often a blackjack gets paid before the dealer flips? Is that not the case if an ACE is showing?
Quote: slackyhackyI don't play BJ often and don't know what this is...but reading this thread I can guess. Let me know if there is more to it.
I get dealt a BJ, the dealer is showing an ACE - I have the option to ask for even money rather than the 3:2 payout? And the risk is that if the dealer also has blackjack, it will be a push right?
it seems to my feeble memory, that often a blackjack gets paid before the dealer flips? Is that not the case if an ACE is showing?
That is exactly right. If the dealer has as Ace or Face showing they will always check to see if they have blackjack before any payouts are made. If they have a blackjack and you do too, the hand is a push. With an Ace showing the dealer will always ask players that have a BJ already if they want even money and mos t players take it thinking it's a good move when in actuality you are giving up almost 7.5% to the house (8 decks, slightly less if fewer decks) by doing this. Anytime the dealer has an ace showing you have the option to take insurance which is only a good bet if you count cards and have a true count of +3 or higher.
