This American Life visits the casino

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/466/blackjack - they are covering various aspects of Blackjack, counting and the like. There's errors in the stories (or short cuts, if you like) but interesting stuff.

I listened to that show last week and it was very good.

Thanks for the post.

Finished the second half of the show on way into work. Very good piece about a lady who lost around a Million playing blackjack at various Harrah's/Cesars casinos, and unsuccessfully sued them for facilitating her problem gambling.

The last part of it was the most interesting :

1) Research shows that in pathological gamblers, near-misses register in the brain almost the same as wins. This creates feedback of "winning" even when they are losing. Non-pathological gamblers don't show this same reaction.

2) The judgements made in the case say there is nothing -illegal- (maybe immoral, and unethical, but not illegal) in a casino targetting and enticing known problem gamblers to play more.

It seems really silly to expect a casino to be responsible for stopping problem gamblers.

Should McDonalds be responsible for determining who is obese and not feed them?

Should drug dealers be relied on to seperate the recreational stoner from the degenerates and not serve the latter?

How about mechanics ought to determine who is a dangerous driver and not fix their cars (ok this one is a stretch) ?

The burden does not fall on these institutions, and that is a GOOD thing. Economics teaches us that people usually do that which is in their own best interest, and it is almost unfair to rely on them to police their patrons.

Quote: bigfoot66

Economics teaches us that people usually do that which is in their own best interest, and it is almost unfair to rely on them to police their patrons.

I'd say economics (especially free market economics) is predicated on the axiom that people tend to act in their own best interest. I'm not sure that is actually true. People may act in what they -think- is their own best interests, in the short term.

Not that I disagree with the idea that it's not the casino's responsibility. I just found it interesting as a flip-side to the argument about card-counting being "wrong".

Quote: bigfoot66

Should drug dealers be relied on to seperate the recreational stoner from the degenerates and not serve the latter?

While I agree with your argument in general, this particular point is very different, as drug dealing and usage is illegal. Casino gambling, McDonalds and Car mechanics are NOT illegal.

Perhaps a better example would be a liquor store refusing to sell booze to a known alcoholic.

The radio program mentioned how alcohol helped fuel Ken Watanabe's $200 million losing streak. But I wish the program had acknowledged that while Caesars was catering to him, Steve Wynn had personally barred Watanabe from his properties because he wasn't comfortable exploiting a gambler with such a serious drinking problem. I'm not suggesting that Caesars did anything illegal, but I'm impressed with Wynn's integrity in that case. Wynn missed out on a lot of revenue by doing the right thing.

This program 466 (- or an edited version of it ? ) aired again July 5th ... just heard it.

It got me interested in counting, but I am a real N00B. After reading up enough to understand that counting is doable with the right amount of practice, patience, and temperament, I was then discouraged to learn about CSM.

I asked the Internet :)) " do all casino tables use CSM? " and also " are there any casinos where dealers still hand shuffle? "

This led me here - very cool website (I love math too :).

So this thread, at least as of a year ago, mentions that there are places where Counting would still be possible, "until they politely ask you to leave". - LOL

There is a nice survey here showing casinos B.J. ranked by number of decks, betting min's / max, etc. (Sorry, I misplaced that link at the moment). It would be very nice to add a column that says number of tables not using ASM, or CSM - or, simply a yes/no as in "does casino offer hand shuffled decks" .

I guess the real question for me at least is: "considering all the 'counting counter-measures' now is it really worth it to learn and really try counting to eck out odds improvements ? "


thanks !

- CR

You have to learn counting.
You supposedly have to learn how to blend in with non-counters.
AND you still have to play black jack and win against the house.

Depending upon various parameters some of which are temporary, the player who is a solid card counter can, at most, achieve about a one percent edge over the house. This still requires a fairly large bankroll and lots of practice and even then will often result in a tap on the shoulder and a very polite "play anything you want here, but not blackjack".

Even if you maintain a one percent edge and there is no "tap" ... Lady Luck can still frown upon you and give you a bath.

If you find the notion of card counting to be entertaining, then fine: explore it further. If you plan on it for income, you might want to see how the famed MIT team lost 75 grand their first time out.

Quote: thecesspit

The last part of it was the most interesting :

1) Research shows that in pathological gamblers, near-misses register in the brain almost the same as wins. This creates feedback of "winning" even when they are losing. Non-pathological gamblers don't show this same reaction.

*Annoyingly mumbles to myself*

Thanks for the prompt reply, Flea...

Quote: FleaStiff

You have to learn counting.

yes, and it looks like a pretty steep learning curve !

Quote:

... a solid card counter can, at most, achieve about a one percent edge over the house.

Interesting - that seems like an optimistic margin to me - but like I said, I'm a noob. So if we add that %1 to the rules variation which tops out at %2 something ... then

Quote:

If you find the notion of card counting to be entertaining, then fine: explore it further.

Yes, I'm under no illusions about income potential :)) was more the math and concentration and even the 'blending in' aspects that caught my attention.

Quote:

... MIT team lost 75 grand their first time out.

And then ? ;-0


Still would like to hear some numbers / stats RE how many non-ASM and non-CSM tables are to be found.

Are retained piles and hand shuffled decks gone ?

- CR

Hand shuffled games or shoe games with only shufflers being used after the end of a shoe are still relatively plentiful in US markets.

"But in the casino industry, the more you lose, the lovelier a prospect you become. So after Bachmann lost a quarter of a million dollars in one night at the casino in Council Bluffs, the phone calls began...
It probably went from a couple of times a week to five times a week, from various casinos hosts throughout the country, really."

From all over the country. But hell no, casinos aren't
predatory, they don't want all your money. Only as
much as they can get their hands on is all..

"She says one time when she was back home, despondent after a big loss, a casino host called her and persuaded her to return to the blackjack tables, saying, you'll win it back. She didn't and in fact ended up losing hundreds of thousands more."

Swell folks. Like sharks with clothes. Always circling looking
for the blood in the water.

A high court judge said: "From a moral standpoint, Caesars' predation and prosecution of a pathological gambler is repugnant."

Predation means predatory. What a surprise.

Did you hear the Holy Rollers guy admit that stealing
was an issue on the Christian team? Even he stole.
His car got robbed of $8000 and instead of taking the
loss, he reported he lost it playing BJ for the team.
Warms my heart..

What was that about the Holy Roman Empire? It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman and it wasn't an empire.
So whats so different about the Holy Rollers. They ain't holy and a California Sushi Roll about as close as they came to being Rollers.

Quote: EvenBob

But hell no, casinos aren't
predatory, they don't want all your money. Only as
much as they can get their hands on is all..

Excellent point Bob. Casinos are the only businesses that are trying to make money. Every other business just wants to make the world a better place, money be damned! Or maybe they are just trying to get enough money to keep the lights on and meet payroll, but they certainly would never dream of maximizing revenue and profits.

Quote: bigfoot66

Excellent point Bob. Casinos are the only businesses that are trying to make money.

They aren't. But my barber and my grocery store
and my mechanic aren't calling me at home five
days a week trying to entice me back to their
businesses by any means possible so they can
pick my pockets till there's nothing left in them.

deleted