Two stories...

First one: We were staying at the Claridge in AC us and the in-laws, we'd arrived the night before and were mixing family stuff (beach, boardwalk) with some gambling for the adults. I got up early, around 6:30, and went down to the coffee shop to pick up some muffins and milks and coffees, and stopped in the casino on my way to play a little 3 Card Poker @ $25 per bet. I was playing the bonus bet (at the time the AC hotels were on the 1/4/6/30/40 bonus pay table) and was only going to play for a few minutes. There was almost no one in the casino, and the dealer was standing there rocking back and forth on her feet with her eyes closed when I sat down, but she smiled and was friendly and seemed happy to have something to do. Third hand, I picked up 7-7-7! I raised, and she revealed her cards to show 3-3-3... "Oh, I'm sorry," she said, but she smiled as she revealed my hand! Then, two hands later, I peeked at my cards and saw 4-4-4! The dealer turned over a pair qualifier then saw my trips, which brought over the table boss and some attention to what had just happened. But all was fine, I played a couple more hands and left my happy dealer a decent tip, and wound up with about $2000 in pocket before the rest of the folks had even gotten out of bed!

Last month, my sister and her husband were in town, and we had them over for dinner. I didn't feel good, so after dinner they went to check in to their hotel and I laid down for a while. They called about an hour later to see if we wanted to join them up at the local casino, Mohegan Pocono. I was feeling better, and so we decided to join them. My wife and I figured we'd play a couple hundred each in the penny machines, then go home. After about 45 minutes I cashed out $73 from an initial start of $100; I was bored, so I decided to run out the ticket in a higher stakes slot then and watch the others play for the rest of the night. So I went to a $1 Wheel of Fortune, put in the ticket and started playing. And the machine went on a death march; blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, not even a cherry. And then, with $13 remaining, I hit the button, and... click-click-click, 5x/5x/5x, and I hit for $4000! Not bad for feeling crappy all day, and then being bored and wanting to leave.

Thanks for the story. Are all the casinos is AC not 6-4-1 anymore? I seem to recall they were last time I was there. But I also recall Harrah's had the awful 50/40/30/6/3/1 bonus bet which is really a terrible thing for the player.

It makes my angry that the casinos can short a paytable like that at such an obvious disadvantage to the player and people keep merrily playing it. It's not even like 6:5 blackjack where I can see some people getting confused. Do the casinos respect their players' intelligence at all?

They're all 50/40/30/6/3/1 now, except Borgata is 100/50/40/6/3/1. For me, the downside is that I play a lot less 3 Card. Yes, the pairs-plus bet has the higher house edge, but the idea is to have fun, and there is certainly some thrill in hoping for a big hand with every deal. If all I wanted to do was make money I'd have gone to work instead, after all!

Quote: teddys

It makes my angry that the casinos can short a paytable like that at such an obvious disadvantage to the player and people keep merrily playing it. It's not even like 6:5 blackjack where I can see some people getting confused. Do the casino's respect their players' intelligence at all?

I think a decent amount of people know that bounus paytables are already a bad bet, but they're looking to get lucky despite the odds, so most go "the hell with it, it's a long shot anyway" and play on merrily. But people come to blackjack because of the small edge, the excitement of getting more money from a blackjack, and a feeling of close competition with the dealer. You take that away and you kill the game, even for people who aren't at all odds savvy.

Listen up....

Footofgod is simply right about something, and it's something we hate to hear. The house has to makes it money for all this to happen in the first place, so the pay tables have to protect the house while allowing some player windfalls. Let us dream and see us sometimes win. God help us if we complain about the house edge when we elect to gamble.

The way bonus-type bets behave, (like three-card poker's pair plus bet), if a bonus bet table goes up to over 10:1 on multiple hands, it's got to have an edge of 7% or better, with a "reduced" table. This is because windfall payouts lock in losses for houses, as players come to their senses and pocket them. This way, a casino can make enough profit to offer them, as players will still win the top payouts to pocket the money. (trips in this case.)

For that reason, bonus bets of 2% or so actually act like "negative HA" bets for the house, in spite of the nominal house edge, and in contrast to even money bets. This is because players generally - and wisely - refuse to lose back a windfall payout, locking in house losses, which are made up by a higher (and needed) house edge.
The 6/4/1 pairplus bet is a class-A example of this. 6/4/1 WAS a player-generous error that nearly killed three card poker when it was starting out.

I designed and got distributed a casino game (EZ Pai Gow Poker), and I had the "Dynasty" bet (same as the Fortune or Emperor's Treasure bonus bet) on it have a 7%+ base edge, aside from Envy. I know that the nature of the gambler is to game - as much as possible - any table or slot offering to his advantage, and to gripe if he cannot have it that way! But I also knew that if my game dumps, then it is out the door, or not even leased in the first place. So, flat bets are about 1% to 2.5%, and bonus bets with larger payouts must be 7% plus, if it contains multiple payouts greater than 5:1 or 10:1 and up to over 100:1 or better. This is because players can and do lock in windfall payouts, causing a 7% bonus bet to act like a 2% bet, - and a 2% bonus bet act live a player-positive, house-negative bet. This was EXACTLY the problem with the first release of Three Card Poker in New Jersey. You won't see 6/4/1 Pair Plus anymore, and it really doesn't matter because it allows the game we love to be offered by casinos in the first place, griping notwithstanding.

I can't gripe what casinos do, which is to reasonably and mathematically protect themselves - because they're not in the business of paying our bills - they're in the business of paying their bills. Their bills include my salary as a casino dealer, and then pay me (and my distributor) royalties as a game designer from my Pai Gow game.

Even Mike the Wizard himself gets his money from casino profits as an industry worker/supplier - which would NOT be there if it were loses. This is true even thought he and I (like ALL the rest of us) want to also WIN whenever we do PLAY, and oftentimes we do. Both Mike S. and I have to "straddle the fence" between our gaming work income, and our off-work "gambling play income" when it happens. But for myself, I have to side with the fact that casinos need to make money to pay their bills in the end for it to all happen, and that includes my salary and the wizard's income too, yet allowing for good and fine nights through fair odds for players who play wisely or get lucky. The griping from advantage players about the gaming industry simply protecting themselves and their (our) industry income irks me to death, as both a gaming industry supplier (my job) and as a gambler (my pasttime). Mike, don't you agree?

It would also be REAL interesting, on the topic of bonus bet edge, if the Wizard would come up with a "bonus bet equivelant" to a flat bet house edge equivelant, as complex as that is, because of the effect of larger payout windfall bets - e.g.:

a bonus bet with a uniform 2:1 to 5:1 payout range with a 3% edge equals a flat bet with a 2% edge;
a bonus bet with a uniform 2:1 to 100:1 payout range with a 4% edge equals a flat bet with a 2% edge;
a bonus bet with a uniform 2:1 to 2000:1 payout range with a 7% edge equals a flat be with a 2% edge, etc.

Now, people, a lottery jackpot ticket has a 50% edge on it - and this is before taxes - but NO ONE who has won $100 Million ever complains about the horrible house edge!!! And the millions of people paying a dollar a shot don't either!!

Anyway, the thrust of this thread is having those Glory Days of big wins, and they happen. And they will still happen with a 7% house edge bonus bet. So, the bigger the potential loss, the bigger the house edge must be to offer it!

If you nail a 2000:1 payout on a $5 bet, it didn't matter if the house edge was 2% or 20%, as you take home the same $10,000. What mattered is that you got paid that $10,000, - but it was the higher house edge made that the bet possible for you to win in the first place.

Some Players have GOT to win and even win big, and walk out with some serious money from time to time,
yet the house has got to win overall, in order to make this all possible in the first place.

Cherish the big wins when they happen. And I understand and accept 6:5 single deck without complaint.

Quote: Paigowdan

Listen up....

After reading the next post, I kinda think this should have said:
Listen up, you whiney little ****s ....

But thanks for that. It was quite the eye-opener.



In the case of the 3 card poker (which I have never played), you'd think that before the game was introduced that the numbers would have been crunched to the point where no adjustment would have been needed.

In the case of 6:5, I really don't have a problem with it. And I suspect others don't have a problem either. We all understand that things change and that the casinos still need to make money. The complaint is, when you de-value the hand upon which the game is named, the game should be named something else. Stop calling it BlackJack. That's all.

Teddybear,

As a game designer, things are NEVER safe - no matter what the math reports say. And the appropriate numbers or game procedures can never seem to be known until a game becomes known and accepted for a while in the real world.

Yes - The error on Three card poker was costly up front, but the game made its success later on down the road. And three-card's numbers initially looked good, but were not appropriate, so were changed and adjusted at great cost and time lost to that game. This is way the its pair-plus bet is 6/3/1, and not 6/4/1, for straight/flush/pair.

a new game's numbers can sadly never be fully crunched or finalized until a game is out for a long while, because of some learning curve or some other factors that the numbers may have to adjust to, becuase pit and dealing procedure that affect the numbers need to be worked out, once the game goes live.

For all the math work to be done up front on table games, even NASA with the Space shuttle sometimes makes mistakes, with things ending up in pieces on the ground to great national shame, and loss of life.

A new table game has even a lesser chance. There's about one good game released per year that'll still be around five years down the road.

Number crunching means a lot, but is NO guarantee!!

It actually takes seeing our games on the floor surviving its black eyes and making adjustments, because of some procedural mistake, or some marketing mistake that says a "game may be played as such" when it cannot, and it trashes the math and/or performance of the game.

"Opps City" doesn't even describe it.

-- Just tonight at the Fiesta Henderson, a new player tried my EZ Pai Gow, but had placed a bonus bet on the Pai Gow insurance bet by mistake, and realized he meant to bet the bonus bet - but it was after the saw his hand. The floor supervisor denied him a small payout, and said it had to play as he bet it as is, because he had already seen the hand. Even though he had a Full house and won the hand, he had no bonus bet to win, and he threw his cards at the dealer and said, "This f*CKING game sucks!" - and walked off.

This was a player error that trashed my game in front of other new players. IT WAS ALSO A SITUATION WHERE THE FLOOR SUPERVISOR COULD HAVE SAID: "NO PROBLEM, PAY THE PLAYER, IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE." I was heart-broken. (I was dealing a Pai Gow table next to my game, and it was a dead game, so I was able to watch this proceeding.)

It didn't matter that the math on the game was perfect, it mattered that the floor supervisor was in a bad mood, and pissed off a player on MY brand-new game, making it look bad. There was nothing I could do but wash my face in cold water in the bathroom, on my next break.

Thanks for the insight, Paigowdan. I've stopped playing 3 Card, maybe I'll start back again; but the cards have been absolutely horrible for me at that game for a couple years now. No 'splainin it.

I agree with you assessment of what people do with big hits; some keep playing but more than half of them cash out and walk. I recall buying in with $500 once at the Claridge and hitting a straight flush on my first or second hand, 25/25/25; I then proceeded to lose every hand, until I'd lost $500; at which point I cashed out $1175, the amount that I'd won on the one hand I'd won.

There is a real paradox in that the house always wins, but casinos are going broke and folding. We want and expect a high level of service, and a good game. I've written here a number of times, I love exciting, high volatility play. At the same time, I REALLY love winning, and I would absolutely ensure that I walked out a winner after a big hit. The few times I haven't, I've felt really dirty and stupid, and I didn't like that.

Quote: Mosca

There is a real paradox in that the house always wins, but casinos are going broke and folding.

The casino business is largely driven by the staggering price of real estate. It overpowers the house advantage in gaming. In Las Vegas construction costs are very high.

Quote: Paigowdan

As a game designer, things are NEVER safe - no matter what the math reports say. And the appropriate numbers or game procedures can never seem to be known until a game becomes known and accepted for a while in the real world.

...

Number crunching means a lot, but is NO guarantee!!

Yeah, I guess I was a little presumtious.

Sorry about that.

Quote: Mosca

There is a real paradox in that the house always wins, but casinos are going broke and folding.

That's the difference between gross profit and net profit.

All businesses sell a product for more than it cost. In the case of a casino, more money goes into the drop, than comes out of the cage. But then you start adding the little things like payroll, morgtgage, utilities, insurance, etc., and even a casino that plays a game where it always wins, can lose.

Quote: Mosca

I REALLY love winning, and I would absolutely ensure that I walked out a winner after a big hit. The few times I haven't, I've felt really dirty and stupid, and I didn't like that.

Welcome to the club.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Welcome to the club.

Hehe, I like to reduce things to the simple and obvious! :)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

All businesses sell a product for more than it cost. you start adding the little things like payroll, mortgage, utilities, insurance, etc., and even a casino that plays a game where it always wins, can lose.

So its either More Players, Players with More Money, Players willing to lose it faster, Better (ie, worse) players, or else a higher house edge. Its not the shearing rate that is vital, its the rate at which the sheep are led into the shearing shed. So is it too many shearing sheds or not enough sheep?