Just hit Royal playing UTH
Quote: VegasriderLast night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.
If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.
Quote: mrsuit31If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.
congrats Vegasrider.
and you should have at least gotten a W2-G form.
Quote: VegasriderLast night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.
Wow. Mega congrats on the Royal. The big pay is on the Blind for that, anyway.
Also, good job correcting them on the tax requirements. Have to agree about the withholding - but it should have been a W2G, and optional whether they withhold federal at that time.
Terribly jealous. I've had a half-dozen SF and several 4toaRF, but never completed it.
Quote: VegasriderLast night at the Nugget (Sparks NV) I hit my first Royal playing UTH after hitting a straight flush the previous night. I had $10 out which paid 500:1 or $5k plus my other bets, but no trips, I refuse to play that. Then the casino floor wanted to tax me on the win and I argued that it's not taxable since they are paying me in chips and it's technically not a progressive or a jackpot. After 10 minutes they came back and agreed. I rivered it, with a Jack Four off suit. I tried to take a picture but they didn't allow it, but I still took one when they weren't looking but it was not a clear picture. Oh well.
Congratulations on the Royal Flush. Any gambling wins are offset by gambling losses on your taxes. If you can, try to find a way to document your losses. I know how to do this but it might run afoul of the forum rules.
Quote: LovecompsCongratulations on the Royal Flush. Any gambling wins are offset by gambling losses on your taxes. If you can, try to find a way to document your losses. I know how to do this but it might run afoul of the forum rules.
Can't think of anything you would say about documenting losses that would run afoul of the forum rules. So if you have advice to offer, feel free, cite any quotes, etc.
This has been discussed and lots of advice given in other threads, fwiw. You might Google the archives, see what we have, too.
Quote: beachbumbabs
Also, good job correcting them on the tax requirements. Have to agree about the withholding - but it should have been a W2G, and optional whether they withhold federal at that time.
For whatever reasons, most table games are exempt from W2G, unless it's an envy bet, some sort of progressive or jackpot. Trust me, it took them a good ten minutes to verify with whoever they needed to verify with. I think I'm the first player to hit a non paying jackpot that paid $5k so they were puzzled when I explained. I've played again last night sitting down at the same table with the same floor staff and it's not like they came up to me and said we made a mistake, we need some of the chips back to withhold federal taxes. Poker tournaments at the Bellagiio use to pay you in chips with zero paper work but I believe they have incorporated the W2Gs into all the poker tournaments whether the prize money is paid in chips or cash.
Quote: VegasriderFor whatever reasons, most table games are exempt from W2G, unless it's an envy bet, some sort of progressive or jackpot. Trust me, it took them a good ten minutes to verify with whoever they needed to verify with. I think I'm the first player to hit a non paying jackpot that paid $5k so they were puzzled when I explained. I've played again last night sitting down at the same table with the same floor staff and it's not like they came up to me and said we made a mistake, we need some of the chips back to withhold federal taxes. Poker tournaments at the Bellagiio use to pay you in chips with zero paper work but I believe they have incorporated the W2Gs into all the poker tournaments whether the prize money is paid in chips or cash.
I doubt it was your explanation that made the difference because your information is incorrect.
Any table games wager that wins a payout of over $600 and odds of at least 300-1 receives a W2G. Any payout of over $5,000 is taxable. Doesn't matter if it's a progressive or not. But, in your case, your payout on a single bet did not exceed $5,000. That is why you were not taxed. Had your payout been anything over $5,000, they would have withheld 24% no matter what you said.
ZCore13
They may then chip up and leave. Whether they go to the cage and cash out all the chips is a different story as a CTR must be filed. But most people know not to cash all the chips out at once if they want to fly under the radar. .
Chips are not classified as currency so their is some valid reasoning on why no forms are required at the table game whenever their is a payout over $5k . But to turn cash into chips or chips into cash, depending on the amount, that must be reported by law.
Quote: VegasriderAny payout over $5k does not constitute a federal witholding at a non progressive table game or jackpot. Slots, video poker yes. Table games you have players betting and winning more that 5k at a time. They may not be winning 500 times their but their winning bet is over $5k as you say.
They may then chip up and leave. Whether they go to the cage and cash out all the chips is a different story as a CTR must be filed. But most people know not to cash all the chips out at once if they want to fly under the radar. .
Chips are not classified as currency so their is some valid reasoning on why no forms are required at the table game whenever their is a payout over $5k . But to turn cash into chips or chips into cash, depending on the amount, that must be reported by law.
Nobody is talking about large even money bets. 300-1 payout and over $5,000 gets taxes withheld. Read the IRS W2G regulations online at the IRS website. Very specific on the rules.
ZCore13
Still had to report it on my 1040, so the IRS got what was due.
BTW, nice hit OP!
Quote: JoemanOK, now I'm confused. When I hit a $10K VP payout at Harrah's NO, there was no federal withholding. The state of Louisiana did take out 6% (most of which I got back by filing my state income tax). Did they screw up? Maybe the law was different in 2016?
Still had to report it on my 1040, so the IRS got what was due.
BTW, nice hit OP!
The Federal Withholding is not mandatory, (at that time with appropriate identification-SSN) but the W2G is. You may opt to have Federal Taxes deducted from what you are paid at the time, and if so, the W2G will then reflect that.
Louisiana and Ohio are two examples of states that deduct a state income tax from the winnings prior to them being paid to you. I don't know about Louisiana, but in the State of Ohio, there is also no way for you to use gambling losses to offset gambling wins in order to recover those funds. They're gone.
In my case, I had a total of $12k in W2Gs form Louisiana. They withheld 6% ($720). I had my tax preparer file a Louisiana state return. I don't think she was able to write off any losses, but the fact that my total income in Louisiana for the year was $12k put me in a much lower tax bracket. So I was able to get a $600+ refund.Quote: Mission146Louisiana and Ohio are two examples of states that deduct a state income tax from the winnings prior to them being paid to you. I don't know about Louisiana, but in the State of Ohio, there is also no way for you to use gambling losses to offset gambling wins in order to recover those funds. They're gone.
The slot attendant was the one who told me that I could get most of the withhholdings back if I filed. So, she definitely earned her tip!
Mississippi is another state that withholds state taxes on W2Gs. They take out 3%. I don't know if you can get any of it back by filing a state return. The most I've had withheld from a hand pay in MS is $60, and the slot attendant didn't say anything about filing to get it back.
I also got a hand pay in IL last year. They did not withhold anything, but that's the only time when the attendant asked me if I wanted any taken out. (No, thanks, I'll take the whole amount!)
I guess it's something good for people to know if they are worried about it or need to use that information in figuring out the value of an advantage play (such as a must-hit) for example. I might do a write-up down the road that lists how it works in every state if there is some interest, probably in a month or two.
Different casinos may have different policies in place for whether attendants have to ask, or not, but as far as Federal Taxes are concerned, I believe it is something you could always request. I certainly wouldn't ask you were I an attendant because it would create more work for me.
Quote: mrsuit31If you win over 299-1 on a table game, it's a taxable event. You got away with one here if they didn't tax you. Even if you're paid in chips, the tax should have been withheld.
Federal Tax rules for Table Games:
1) Anything paying 300:1 AND over $600 is reportable.
2) Anything that is reportable (see #1) AND over $5000 must have taxes withheld.
Please note the AND in both statements.
This is directly from the instructions on the W2-G and can be found at IRS website.
You must withhold federal income tax from the winnings if the winnings minus the wager exceed $5,000 and the winnings are at least 300 times the wager. Withhold 24% of the proceeds (the winnings minus the wager). This is regular gambling withholding.
Quote: VegasriderFactoring my wager of $10 came into play by not breaking that $5k net payoff.
No it didn't. You weren't paid over $5,000 either way.
ZCore13
Quote: FCBLComishFederal Tax rules for Table Games:
1) Anything paying 300:1 AND over $600 is reportable.
2) Anything that is reportable (see #1) AND over $5000 must have taxes withheld.
Please note the AND in both statements.
This is directly from the instructions on the W2-G and can be found at IRS website.
Clearly my initial response was incomplete and therefore incorrect. Zcore and FCBLComish know what that are talking about.
Sorry for my incomplete misstatement.
Nice hit, I haven’t hit one to date. My best has been a straight flush.
Nice hit.
But if I win a $1000 pass line with 5X odds, there's no paperwork except for the internal casino MTL (fixed letters) when I go to the cage; if I had 10X odds then they'd skip the MTL (fixed letters) and go straight to the CTR, unless I lost that bet again thrice before I got to the cage when I've got less than a $1000. They won't throw a CTR at me at the table would they?
Quote: ChumpChangeSo even a Fire Bet that pays 1000 for 1 on a $1 bet (or higher) is reportable and if the bet was $6 it'd be subject to withholding.
But if I win a $1000 pass line with 5X odds, there's no paperwork except for the internal casino SAR when I go to the cage; if I had 10X odds then they'd skip the SAR and go straight to the CTR, unless I lost that bet again thrice before I got to the cage when I've got less than a $1000. They won't throw a CTR at me at the table would they?
Why do you think the casino would file a Suspicious Activity Report simply because you are cashing chips in? Chips for legitimate winnings that they can easily verify.
Edit: should have wrote MTL instead of SARs. Thanks.
@ChumpChange — I don’t think that’s how SARs work. I think you’re thinking of an internal system (MTL?).
http://www.indiangaming.com/istore/Sep10_Maddocks.pdf
Quote: ChumpChangeI'm thinking that the best way for a high roller to document their wins and losses is to buy in for $20,000+ and cash out over $10,000 so the difference is obvious on the CTR form. But I wouldn't get a copy of that filled out form would I?
No, you wouldn’t get it. At least not normally.
I’m not sure if you can request a copy of it or not — I know some stuff is very “secretive”.
Quote: BTLWIFor poker tournaments it has to be $5000 over the buy in. I won $5115 but the buy in was $365 so there was no W2-G. Not sure why everyone is arguing that anything over $5000 is a W2-G, that's certainly not true for poker.
I don't think.everyone IS arguing that. It's as single bet better than 1:300 odds AND over whatever. I don't think it's simply $5000 anywhere for a W2G.
