Bigsooner
Joined: Feb 8, 2010
• Posts: 21
February 8th, 2010 at 6:37:58 PM permalink
IF you can control the dice to roll certian numbers more than others wouldnt a flat betting system be best?

a pro gambler with a edge wants to reduce varaice, drasticly changing bet size is no way to do that

of course if you can control the dice (not saying it cont be done) any bet system will win
sevenshooter
Joined: Dec 26, 2009
• Posts: 78
February 8th, 2010 at 6:52:22 PM permalink
The most popular way to play would be Pass Line (All Sevens Comeout Preset). Take full odds and use either "Flying V" or "Mini-V" presets depending on the point.

Others use a classic regression such as \$110 inside then to \$22 across.
Or you could use a regression for 6/8 place bets, say, \$24 six and eight and regress to \$6 six and eight after one hit.

Still, others prefer the dark side and use the Straight Sixes preset to seven-out after the point has been made.

Dice setting in combination with the right throw can give the Don't bettor 4-1 against points of 6/8 instead of 6-5; or make the roll of points 5/9 theoretically impossible using Straight Sixes.

Mini-V for point of 5/9 and 4/10 when betting the right side.
Flying V for points of 6/8.

Crossed Sixes for Don't Comeout.

As you can see, there's a variety of bets or combinations of bets that can be made and wagered upon. Even Field betting can become a bet with positive EV with the right preset.
Bigsooner
Joined: Feb 8, 2010
• Posts: 21
February 8th, 2010 at 7:10:07 PM permalink
I understand the concept of dice control and betting on certian things

If you have dice control why dont you bet the same "unit" on every throw?
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
• Posts: 5994
February 8th, 2010 at 7:46:05 PM permalink
Not that the Wizard is god, but even he believes that dice control is possible.

That said, let's take a good look at a craps table. The dice have to hit the back wall. You have to throw the dice perfectly. The dice bounce. There are chips and other things that interfere with the throw. There are waitresses, stickmen, alcohol, and other distractions. So, while dice control is possible to change the odds in the game, I feel that very very few people can do it and prove that they have an advantage. The person who has the craps record for not sevening out is not a controlled shooter -- it is a lady in New Jersey who didn't know anything about the game.

You can analyze your throws using software called WinCraps. The software can tell you what your dice set is for throwing and the best bets you can make based on your throws. If you invest in this software, you also would invest in a dice control class and a semi-professional craps table. With the software and your practice throws, in theory, you can throw more number with higher and or lower probabilities than random. This changes the way you play the game because you can calculate your best throws against the house offerings. For example, if you can reliably throw (and prove) that you can throw a 6 or 8 as often as you throw a 7, it gives you a 8.333% HA on the 6 and 8.

Anyway, I don't want to open a debate about whether it's possible or not possible, or that one person has this particular talent.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Bigsooner
Joined: Feb 8, 2010
• Posts: 21
February 8th, 2010 at 7:51:24 PM permalink
ok so clearly

1. If "dice control" is possible it would be +ev
2. While theoreticly possible it is unlikely anyone can do it given the chanenges

the pointI am making is if we assume you have dice control, why do you need a betting system?
just bet 1 unit all the time on the numbers you plan to throw.

dice control is something a pro gambler would use (if he could)
craps betting systems are not

ps. also this assumes you are not betting when others are throwing
sevenshooter
Joined: Dec 26, 2009
• Posts: 78
February 8th, 2010 at 8:07:17 PM permalink
Quote: Bigsooner

I understand the concept of dice control and betting on certian things

If you have dice control why dont you bet the same "unit" on every throw?

Oh -- I see where you're coming from.

You're right: there's no need to use a progression when your edge is that strong.

Simply betting one unit on the Don't and shooting to seven-out will suffice.

Precision shooters often just place the six and eight and then either reduce or take both bets down immediately after hitting one or the other.

Or use an inside regression, lock up a small win and then attempt to build from there.

It's always wise to bet your advantage in proportion to bankroll. I favor using the half-Kelly approach over full-Kelly and adjust bets as bankroll grows.
Bigsooner
Joined: Feb 8, 2010
• Posts: 21
February 8th, 2010 at 8:52:29 PM permalink
are you not betting when others are throwing
sevenshooter
Joined: Dec 26, 2009
• Posts: 78
February 8th, 2010 at 9:16:56 PM permalink
Quote: Bigsooner

are you not betting when others are throwing

Okay: it's been quite a day -- off to bed soon.

In response to the question above, I never bet on other shooters unless I recognize them to be able precision shooters. This is relatively easy to do: 1) Make sure the bets they're making correspond to the preset used. 2) Watch the dice after they are launched and ensure they rotate together in unison and remain on axis. Proper landing is critical, too. Having said that, it its not often when I encounter another shooter whom I can bet on.

Here in Vancouver, I have only been "backed off" once before. The boxman informed me that if I were to continue playing I would have to change my throwing style from underhand to the more conventional, 3 finger grip. Not a problem. For the most part, the crews here are very relaxed and often aren't even concerned when one or both dice don't make it all the way to the back wall. A good rapport with the crew always helps, as does tipping a little, now and then.
odiousgambit

Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8409
February 9th, 2010 at 3:30:59 AM permalink
Quote: sevenshooter

Here in Vancouver, I have only been "backed off" once before. The boxman informed me that if I were to continue playing I would have to change my throwing style from underhand to the more conventional, 3 finger grip.

This is the first I've heard of anything but an extended welcome to any dice setters, except for the thing about hitting the back wall.

Quote: sevenshooter

Not a problem.

Seems like it *would* be a problem unless you are just as good with the other grip.

Regarding your contributions, you clearly are taking time and effort to compose your posts, and that deserves at least the benefit of the doubt... just speaking for myself.

If you want some advice (perhaps you don't), you need to observe Sun Tzu's advice and "Pick the Time and Place of your Battles". If you'll notice, the Wizard is good at that. So far every jab at you by anybody has caused a General Engagement [g].

In other words, you need to let some criticisms go, especially predicable ones, and let your posts speak for themselves.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
sevenshooter
Joined: Dec 26, 2009
• Posts: 78
February 9th, 2010 at 2:20:26 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: sevenshooter

Here in Vancouver, I have only been "backed off" once before. The boxman informed me that if I were to continue playing I would have to change my throwing style from underhand to the more conventional, 3 finger grip.

This is the first I've heard of anything but an extended welcome to any dice setters, except for the thing about hitting the back wall.

Quote: sevenshooter

Not a problem.

Seems like it *would* be a problem unless you are just as good with the other grip.

Regarding your contributions, you clearly are taking time and effort to compose your posts, and that deserves at least the benefit of the doubt... just speaking for myself.

If you want some advice (perhaps you don't), you need to observe Sun Tzu's advice and "Pick the Time and Place of your Battles". If you'll notice, the Wizard is good at that. So far every jab at you by anybody has caused a General Engagement [g].

In other words, you need to let some criticisms go, especially predicable ones, and let your posts speak for themselves.

Very sound advice -- point taken. :)