Patent a betting system?
January 22nd, 2012 at 9:01:07 PM
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I don't know anything about patent laws.
Is it possible to patent a betting system?
Is it possible to patent a betting system?
January 22nd, 2012 at 9:11:18 PM
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IANAL, but I'd guess no. A patented invention must be novel, non-obvious, and useful. Betting systems are not useful, at a minimum, and are probably not non-obvious either. Patent examiners have rejected patents on paytables for casino games under the theory that paying a different amount for the same outcome is obvious. By an extension of that logic, betting a different amount on the same wager is also obvious. If so, that means that all betting systems would be obvious (for patentability purposes) over flat-betting.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 22nd, 2012 at 10:54:30 PM
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Quote: slackyhacky
Is it possible to patent a betting system?
Nope. This is asked a lot on gambling forums. You can't
patent things like recipes or betting systems. Thats why
KFC and Coke are kept such big secrets.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 22nd, 2012 at 11:20:33 PM
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Quote: EvenBobNope. This is asked a lot on gambling forums. You can't
patent things like recipes or betting systems. Thats why
KFC and Coke are kept such big secrets.
How about copyright 'em?
January 22nd, 2012 at 11:38:48 PM
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Some recipes and betting systems can be patented,
but they have to be useful, novel, and non-obvious.
Most are not, and you'll play hell convincing the patent
office they are.
but they have to be useful, novel, and non-obvious.
Most are not, and you'll play hell convincing the patent
office they are.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 22nd, 2012 at 11:42:05 PM
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Quote: slackyhackyHow about copyright 'em?
It's like trying to copyright basic math. Sure certain people get credited for coming up with different theorems and solutions to different problems. But trying to patent a "betting system" is like trying to patent any basic math formula. Take the Pythagorean formula for finding the inside angles of right triangles.
So everyone knows this is a^2 + b^2 = c^2. And most people know where it comes from. You couldn't just make a variation of it, and magically call it the YoDice formula. It just doesn't work.
January 23rd, 2012 at 2:58:38 AM
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Quote: slackyhackyHow about copyright 'em?
You can only copyright a text, not an idea. For instance, a book can be copyrighted, but not the basic storyline. Generally copyright law is very inconsistent (at least to me, IANAL), it's tailored to protect particular major holders (Disney).
So anyone would be able to describe the system as well. He doesn't even need to change a lot - if there is only one sensible way to describe it, merger doctrine will apply. For instance, an equation, a sequence of numbers or a set of equations, no matter how long and complex it is, can not have copyright protection.
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January 23rd, 2012 at 3:38:29 AM
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>I don't know anything about patent laws.
I do.
>Is it possible to patent a betting system?
No.
That's it! You can have some unique betting progression at roulette known as the SlackyHacky, but aside from intellectual property protection for the name SlackyHacky and for the visual manner in which you depict that name, there are no protections wherein you could exclude others from using the betting system or exclude others from popularizing the betting system. Depending upon how unique the term SlackyHacky is you might not even get any protection for the name, but you will never get any protection for this two units, seventeen units then three units if its a Tuesday stuff.
Now if you want to write a book about the SlackyHacky betting system and how it has helped you get rich, get laid and get rid of dandruff you will be able to copyright that book but the system itself is not a protectable work.
I do.
>Is it possible to patent a betting system?
No.
That's it! You can have some unique betting progression at roulette known as the SlackyHacky, but aside from intellectual property protection for the name SlackyHacky and for the visual manner in which you depict that name, there are no protections wherein you could exclude others from using the betting system or exclude others from popularizing the betting system. Depending upon how unique the term SlackyHacky is you might not even get any protection for the name, but you will never get any protection for this two units, seventeen units then three units if its a Tuesday stuff.
Now if you want to write a book about the SlackyHacky betting system and how it has helped you get rich, get laid and get rid of dandruff you will be able to copyright that book but the system itself is not a protectable work.
January 23rd, 2012 at 3:51:14 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffThat's it! You can have some unique betting progression at roulette known as the SlackyHacky, but aside from intellectual property protection for the name SlackyHacky...
Actually names themselves are not copyrightable at all. They can be protected by a trademark, however, if you are selling books called "SlackyHacky Mega System" and making a profit (to pay the fees). Unregistered trademark ("TM" as opposed to "(R)") only prevents people from passing off books on your system as the original, but a book called "SlackyHacky System for Dummies" would be legal.
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January 23rd, 2012 at 4:28:26 AM
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First off, no, you can't patent a betting system.
But assume for a minute that you COULD patent it.
Then what?
How are you gonna prevent millions of ordinary people from using a system that happens to be the same as what you had patented?
But assume for a minute that you COULD patent it.
Then what?
How are you gonna prevent millions of ordinary people from using a system that happens to be the same as what you had patented?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:32:56 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffNow if you want to write a book about the SlackyHacky betting system and how it has helped you get rich, get laid and get rid of dandruff you will be able to copyright that book
HA!
Actually, who cares about the book, I'd rather get laid and get rid of dandruff.
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:44:20 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearFirst off, no, you can't patent a betting system.
But assume for a minute that you COULD patent it.
Then what?
How are you gonna prevent millions of ordinary people from using a system that happens to be the same as what you had patented?
That's the real question. Having a patent is only as valuable as your ability and willingness to enforce it. Patent litigation costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and often millions if you actually end up going through trial with experts and all the trappings. So suppose you had a patent on a gambling system, and Joe Blow was using it. What are your damages? A few hundred bucks? You're not going to hire a $300/hr attorney to go after someone for $300 total, are you?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 24th, 2012 at 8:56:12 AM
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Quote: MathExtremistThat's the real question. Having a patent is only as valuable as your ability and willingness to enforce it. Patent litigation costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and often millions if you actually end up going through trial with experts and all the trappings. So suppose you had a patent on a gambling system, and Joe Blow was using it. What are your damages? A few hundred bucks? You're not going to hire a $300/hr attorney to go after someone for $300 total, are you?
I think the value in getting a patent is not to prevent people from using it, but to prevent people from publishing it in case you wanted to sell it. But that would be a difficult task regardless.
It reminds me of the napster salesman on futurama. "You can't shut us down. The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. We've done nothing wrong."
January 24th, 2012 at 9:28:42 AM
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Quote: slackyhackyI think the value in getting a patent is not to prevent people from using it, but to prevent people from publishing it in case you wanted to sell it. But that would be a difficult task regardless.
I think you misunderstand what a patent is. In order to get a patent on a method, you (the inventor) must disclose that method publicly. You can't get a patent on something secret -- public disclosure is required. And your patent, if issued, would be published at the USPTO's website (patft.uspto.gov).
From 35 USC 112:
"The specification shall contain a written description of the invention, and of the manner and process of making and using it, in such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art to which it pertains, or with which it is most nearly connected, to make and use the same, and shall set forth the best mode contemplated by the inventor of carrying out his invention."
It sounds like you want a trade secret, not a patent.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 24th, 2012 at 9:44:25 AM
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You can't patent a betting system (as an obvious usage of an existing system and products) but you can patent items related to the usage of a sets of hardware and software e.g. a system to allow the sharing of a photograph from a central server to a remote user, which to me is also an obvious usage. (see : A system for creation of an image display such as an electronic postcard, patent 6,542,936).
But there we go. US patent law is kinda odd to me at least. To me, if the patent is not a precise recipe, algorithm or physical device, it's kind of weird to patent an abstract method or concept.
My favourite patent I've heard about is US 6080436 - A method of refreshening a bread product by heating the bread product to a temperature between 250 degree. F. and 450 degree. F. The bread products are maintained at this temperature range for a period of 3 to 90 seconds.
I call that toast. And as Evenbob says, we don't joke about toast.
(I realize it's a little more subtle than that... but not much).
But there we go. US patent law is kinda odd to me at least. To me, if the patent is not a precise recipe, algorithm or physical device, it's kind of weird to patent an abstract method or concept.
My favourite patent I've heard about is US 6080436 - A method of refreshening a bread product by heating the bread product to a temperature between 250 degree. F. and 450 degree. F. The bread products are maintained at this temperature range for a period of 3 to 90 seconds.
I call that toast. And as Evenbob says, we don't joke about toast.
(I realize it's a little more subtle than that... but not much).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
January 24th, 2012 at 10:09:15 AM
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It wouldn't be toast at those temperatures, just warm bread -- but the patent actually says 2500-4500 degrees, not 250-450 degrees. Toasters can't get that hot. They actually get up to about 1000 degrees, but that's different technology than specified by the patent.
More to the point, the US patent system is pretty clear on the unpatentability of abstract ideas. Just ask anyone who's tried to patent a card game lately. The PTO is currently rejecting them under 35 USC 101 for being unpatentably abstract. That wasn't always the case -- I have several card game patents -- but it just goes to show how interpretations change over time.
More to the point, the US patent system is pretty clear on the unpatentability of abstract ideas. Just ask anyone who's tried to patent a card game lately. The PTO is currently rejecting them under 35 USC 101 for being unpatentably abstract. That wasn't always the case -- I have several card game patents -- but it just goes to show how interpretations change over time.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 24th, 2012 at 10:27:48 AM
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Quote: MathExtremistIt wouldn't be toast at those temperatures, just warm bread -- but the patent actually says 2500-4500 degrees, not 250-450 degrees. Toasters can't get that hot. They actually get up to about 1000 degrees, but that's different technology than specified by the patent.
You are right, I misread the 2500F there... and even copied it wrong thinking it had copied the degree sign as a 0 ;)
Quote:More to the point, the US patent system is pretty clear on the unpatentability of abstract ideas. Just ask anyone who's tried to patent a card game lately. The PTO is currently rejecting them under 35 USC 101 for being unpatentably abstract. That wasn't always the case -- I have several card game patents -- but it just goes to show how interpretations change over time.
Sounds good to me. my (uneducated) reading of some software patents are either obvious or prior art, or slightly new usages of existing technologies, or do not detail a specific implementation of an abstract idea or concept. I'm not saying those ideas aren't good ones, but I'm not sure what's gained by the patent around them over getting them implemented and dealing with the various engineering problems they entail.
I'm all for patenting specific software algorithms, as to me they come under the same sort of area as chemical and pharma patents. You can't patent a "method for relieving pain by ingesting a variant of chemical X orally" (or can you?), but you can patent "a chemical compound X that relieves pain in a targeted area". Similarly, it makes sense to me to allow a patent for "minimizing a data file by applying compression algorithm X" but not "a method to minimize a data file by use of a compression method".
Please be all means correct me if I am talking nonsense. It's not an area I fully understand, as is clear ;)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
January 24th, 2012 at 8:13:58 PM
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Now imagine if I had asked this same question. Consistent answers or ATTACKS?
Ken
Ken
February 5th, 2012 at 6:37:09 PM
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I think that having to patent a betting system would be a nice thing to do. But in the long run, it would have been really hard but I guess it's for the better. I really just hope that it would go out well in the future.
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Bet Online Sports Betting
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Bet Online Sports Betting
February 10th, 2012 at 2:23:28 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistI think you misunderstand what a patent is. In order to get a patent on a method, you (the inventor) must disclose that method publicly. You can't get a patent on something secret -- public disclosure is required. And your patent, if issued, would be published at the USPTO's website (patft.uspto.gov).
From 35 USC 112:
"The specification shall contain a written description of the invention, and of the manner and process of making and using it, in such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art to which it pertains, or with which it is most nearly connected, to make and use the same, and shall set forth the best mode contemplated by the inventor of carrying out his invention."
It sounds like you want a trade secret, not a patent.
Maybe. But having it public knowledge isn't the point. The point is to have a way to prevent others from posting it on the website, or selling it or whatever.
Like music I guess.
February 10th, 2012 at 3:26:35 PM
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Quote: slackyhackyMaybe. But having it public knowledge isn't the point. The point is to have a way to prevent others from posting it on the website, or selling it or whatever.
Like music I guess.
That'd be a copyright, then. The laws are totally different from patents. From www.copyright.gov, "Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."
See US Copyright Office Copyright Basics PDF
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 10th, 2012 at 3:35:55 PM
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Dumb question time : I thought I read somewhere that patents can not be copyrighted. Perhaps in a NILO book. If so, could a person cut and paste
sections from a like patent, say a method for playing a casino game and use it in his patent application ?
sections from a like patent, say a method for playing a casino game and use it in his patent application ?
February 10th, 2012 at 4:31:35 PM
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Sure, but it's de facto prior art at that point. You can't get a patent on someone else's disclosure. But I use clips from other peoples' patents in my applications all the time. I do it to show that the prior art is deficient and that what I'm doing is an innovative improvement.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
