Craps Power Betting by John Gollehon

Picked up a copy of "Conquering Casino Craps" by John Gollehon. In which he gives his, 'Power Betting' strategy. Now of course he says it's not a system, it's a strategy. (That one can be debated by diehards on both ends until the cows come home).

To sum it up, Gollehon says prop bets are for suckers. Even place bets on the six and eight are too high of HA, don't bother. (He used to play then but no longer). His advice, stay with pass line with double odds and come bets with double odds. No reason to throw money on anything else.

His 'power betting' strategy is basically progressive betting. Start at table min and enter up the progression if you win three in a row or three out of four points. If you lose three points in a row or three out of four, leave the table, don’t go back for some time.

Of course there are charts of how much to bet and it’s more detailed in the book but that’s the basic.
Personally, that’s how I play. I don’t chase C&E’s, hop bets, the field and other huge HA traps. Once awhile if I feel foggy, I might throw out two bucks two way on a hard number just for grins. Otherwise, I stick with the pass and the come and ride it up. However most times I find following Gollenhons rules the progression doesn’t get far start and I just leave a cold table, which he himself often happens following said rules. Of course if your following the method up, you will face a loss at a higher level but you will not lose all your winnings. Sure I’ve lost $10 on the line $100 on the odds with a seven out but I still had $500 net win to show for it.

Anybody else out there familiar with his work? Anybody else follow the same path on the craps table? Intelligent comments only please. No need to debate if this system, it’s clearly a progressive betting method.

Thanks!

He has you pushing with more and more come bets I assume?

The problem with come bets is that in any good roll, after making his point the shooter typically hits a natural seven on the following come out roll.

When that happens, your come bets all go down.

Me, I place six and eight, and employ various progression strategies; I also spread out to cover 5 and 9 and even 4 and 10 if the roll is shaping up nicely.

But yeah, on paper PL and Come betting w/odds has a more player-friendly HA.

MrV if you are so inclined that a shooter "typically" hits a seven following making a point, why not just take insurance by playing any seven at 5-1? The fact is the seven has the same odds of coming out during that roll when trying to get hit the point as it does after hitting a point and coming out again.

Quote: odiousgambit

He has you pushing with more and more come bets I assume?

The number come bets are up to the individual. You can play with none, one, or more come bets at a time. It depends on how you want to play it. The come bets follow the same progessive method though indepdent of what your pass line bet is doing. All of your come bets are treated independently. You can push up winning ones but you don't push up ones that are still stilling on points.

Quote: MrV

The problem with come bets is that in any good roll, after making his point the shooter typically hits a natural seven on the following come out roll.

When that happens, your come bets all go down.

Me, I place six and eight, and employ various progression strategies; I also spread out to cover 5 and 9 and even 4 and 10 if the roll is shaping up nicely.

But yeah, on paper PL and Come betting w/odds has a more player-friendly HA.

The dice don't talk to each other and decide when their going to seven out on you. But you are correct, the seven out will come sooner or later and it's going to wipe out your pass line and come bets. However, it's also going to wipe out any and all place bets on the 5, 6, 8 9, 4, and 10.

You are also correct that place bets have a higer HA. Place 5 or 9 and HA is 4%. Place 4 or 10 and HA is 6.67%. You're getting table odds not true odds.

Come bet HA is 1.41% then 1x odds is 0.848% while 2x odds is 0.606%. Considering you're getting true odds on a come bet vs. table odds on place bets.

The only bad part about a come bet, is once it's on a point, you're facing a negative HA...when it's in the COME box, you have a positive HA, HOWEVER your advantage would also be your DISADVANTAGE because your passline bet would lose...this is the main reason I never play a come bet. I simply pass PL and place the 6/8.
I full press on each hit. PL starts at $5 with 3/4/5, then goes to $10 with 3/4/5.

Gollehon is all over the place on the issue of house advantage and the best way to win at craps. I have a variety of his books. He has at various times advocated playing nothing but PL and Come bets (as in the Conquering Casino Craps work), then at other times advocated separately the notion of betting PL, in tandem with place and/or buy bets using progressions, and as well using the Hardways progressively to build 'bombs.' He calls the latter approach his 'Bomb Strategy.' Moreover, the publication dates of his books do NOT reflect an evolution in his thinking. Interesting.

All of that said, he is an engaging writer and I've enjoyed his stuff over the years. You can usually find his varied works in any Barnes & Noble, or Borders.

I sometimes bet PL and / or come bets, but not usually.

As for hedging: that ain't my cuppa joe.

Typically I won't start spreading out until I am in a true profit lock for that shooter, then I put the pedal to the metal.

I fondly recall rolls where I started with placing six and eight for six or twelve each, and wound up having the four and ten bought for fifty each, and hitting.

Ah ... down memory lane ...

Quote: midwestgb

Gollehon is all over the place on the issue of house advantage and the best way to win at craps. I have a variety of his books. He has at various times advocated playing nothing but PL and Come bets (as in the Conquering Casino Craps work), then at other times advocated separately the notion of betting PL, in tandem with place and/or buy bets using progressions, and as well using the Hardways progressively to build 'bombs.' He calls the latter approach his 'Bomb Strategy.' Moreover, the publication dates of his books do NOT reflect an evolution in his thinking. Interesting.

All of that said, he is an engaging writer and I've enjoyed his stuff over the years. You can usually find his varied works in any Barnes & Noble, or Borders.

Interesting. No suprise though. In conquering craps he himself wrote that another player met and him and found him making place and come bets. That player walked away disappointed and he claimed he was in himself too. Doesn't shock me at all that anybody selling gaming books has to rewrite or create a new 'strategy' in order to write a new book to gin up sales. Much the same as everybody has their own blackjack card counting methods they hawk.

Quote: TIMSPEED

The only bad part about a come bet, is once it's on a point, you're facing a negative HA...when it's in the COME box, you have a positive HA, HOWEVER your advantage would also be your DISADVANTAGE because your passline bet would lose...this is the main reason I never play a come bet. I simply pass PL and place the 6/8.
I full press on each hit. PL starts at $5 with 3/4/5, then goes to $10 with 3/4/5.

You make a point to a degree but I think the reasoning gets a little foggy. When your bet is on the come box you still face the risk of losing outright on a craps 2, 3, or 12. You'll get a even money on 11. A 7 will pay you even money but you'll lose your pass line, yeah but you'll also lose your place bets on 6 and 8 too.

When comes down to it, I'd rather take the risk of a come bet with odds and get the true odds instead of house odds. So on a 6 or 8, you'll getting 6 to 5 true odds vs. 7 to 6 house odds. The payout is much greater. Place bets and come bets on points both face the same risk of a seven out any roll.

Again it's just me but I'd rather get true odds then greatly reduced house odds. To anybody that wants to place bet though, your money and I'm rooting for you and that the shooter keeps making points rather then seven's out. Unless I'm on the don't of course. Then I'm not rooting and just keeping a low profile.

I think the main reason I play craps is to hope to be there when someone rolls 15 minutes or more without rolling a 7-out. I'd love to be there when it goes anything like an hour or more, something I've never witnessed and may never witness.

I don't mess with 'the don't' much anymore for this reason.

If somebody can't seem to roll a 7-out, if you have multiple come-bets going it is so sweet! Nothing like hitting your point and your next come bet goes up to take it's place with full odds *and* it happens again and again.

There are decisions to make. Generally you have to guard against having too many different points to make or you are really just figuring your luck is invincible that day, something that gets pretty clear when the 7-out does come and clears it all out and you look at your bankroll and realize even though it was a hot shooter you maybe even lost money. That's one reason it is so sweet to have a come bet replace a just-hit number rather than become a different point to have to also make.

Anyway, that's my two cents on why I play the way I do, in reply to the other posts about not doing the come bets. I don't say you don't have a point. It can be frustrating, usually I hold off on too many come bets and wait until a hunch says the time is right, often judging by the shooter [which is pure superstition].

Quote: BearCraps

Interesting. No suprise though. In conquering craps he himself wrote that another player met and him and found him making place and come bets. That player walked away disappointed and he claimed he was in himself too. Doesn't shock me at all that anybody selling gaming books has to rewrite or create a new 'strategy' in order to write a new book to gin up sales. Much the same as everybody has their own blackjack card counting methods they hawk.

I remember that story in his book too.

The things I find valuable in Gollehon's books are his general philosophy of keeping your play in the short-term and quitting quickly before losing one's bankroll at a cold table, regardless of the game. His progression formulas have proven useful to me as well. The fact he has varied recommendations as to Craps does not bother me either. He is trying to sell books after all.

BTW, his commentary in Conquering Casino Craps as to dice setting is both enjoyable and a bit odd inasmuch as he plainly sees value in dice-setting while protesting that it takes away from the game in a philosophical sense.

Quote:

BTW, his commentary in Conquering Casino Craps as to dice setting is both enjoyable and a bit odd inasmuch as he plainly sees value in dice-setting while protesting that it takes away from the game in a philosophical sense.

I bet it is a direct relationship between how much money he is making ; )

I have played his strategy before and as Murphy would have it no table ever made more than two or three points in a row. Soon as we gave up on the system of course we came across tables with hot shooters and the whole while only having a PL with 2X odds... In my opinion it is a valid strategy if you like to go for the big win, but you will be surprised how many tables don't "qualify". Also, where we live there were not a lot of casinos at the time so just going to another table / casino was not an option. I would like to try it again though in Vegas or AC.

Quote: wrongway

I have played his strategy before and as Murphy would have it no table ever made more than two or three points in a row. Soon as we gave up on the system of course we came across tables with hot shooters and the whole while only having a PL with 2X odds... In my opinion it is a valid strategy if you like to go for the big win, but you will be surprised how many tables don't "qualify". Also, where we live there were not a lot of casinos at the time so just going to another table / casino was not an option. I would like to try it again though in Vegas or AC.

You're right on wrongway. He even wrote himself that it's not often you'll get out of "pre play" pharse to moving into the progression. Which is what I've found most times probably just the same as most others. It's a hunt for the hot table. All said and done though I'd rather leave a cold table up a couple dollars (have many times) hang around and cut into my orginal stake and have a net loss 'cause my lucks gotta change this next roll.....'. Some people like to play, other people are looking to take wins and bank them. Rather bank a win any day but sometimes, well you'll going to lose and you'll just going to have to walk out the door at a loss.

I've just recently started playing craps, and bought Conquering Casino Craps after losing all of my stake at an extremely Cold Table on a Cruise Ship. If I'd have known about walking away earlier.....

Anyway, one thing that I either overlooked or isn't mentioned in his book is the recommended timing of when you start to place bets on the Come.

Can I "Assume" that I should do so after two successful PL bets in a row?

What if there's a Craps right after a point is made and I lose my bet on the Come? Should I follow it up?

What about which #'s I should take odds on after the dealers place my chips on the Come Point? All of them? Including the 4 & 10?

If I have a "Bad Feeling" about a given roll, would you recommend taking off my Odds for the Come Points? Or just leave them up there, as we can't know what the Dice are feeling at any given time.

How many Come Bets should I make? Until all of the possible point #'s are covered? Should I still make them to cover myself in case that there's a 7-Out?

Would anyone have a way to e-mail or contact Gollehon directly with these kinds of questions?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can give.

Gollehon has in the last year or two switched his publishing over from doing so on his own to the Cardoza gambling/publishing empire. I once emailed him and he did email me back though.

BTW, I would never have more than a PL and two Come bets working. Except on a very, very hot table of course ... ;-)