Hedging in Craps for Casino Rating and Comps

Anyone tried partnering with someone and betting pass and don't pass line with offsetting odds for tier rating and comps? For example:

Patron #1 Passline: $25 base, $100 odds

Patron #2 Don't Pass: $25 base, lay $200 (4 & 10), lay $150 (5 & 9), lay $120 (6 & 8)

Only stand to lose $25 on roll of 12 ( 1 in 36 odds). Do casino's pick up on it at a crowded table? Any experience on this?

Thanks

I thought that casinos didn't include odds bets in bet tracking for comps. Am I mistaken about this?

If odds are not included, then each patron is, in effect, betting 25 on each comeout. Is that going to generate much toward tier rating or comps?

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I thought that casinos didn't include odds bets in bet tracking for comps. Am I mistaken about this?

If odds are not included, then each patron is, in effect, betting 25 on each comeout. Is that going to generate much toward tier rating or comps?
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There are always exceptions to rules but that was always the default procedure yes.

Cancelling bets certainly are a thing... Whether or not it's actually worthwhile is often highly situational though.

Might get $25 of comps per 4 hours per player, idk.

I don't know anything about comps but I know casinos would LOVE if you play that way. It guarantees that you'll never win even a single bet and reduces a best case 1.41% vig down to zero for all intents and purposes.

If it was my casino, I'd happily rebate you 50% of your hourly loss expectation if you'd commit to play that way 24/7. I'd calculate comps such that you were effectively paying $20 per drink or $100 per meal and keep you there as long as possible. And I'd guess that if I comped both players intelligently, not knowing of the teamwork, the result would be even better if they were hedging each other secretly. But I'll leave that for a dealer to answer.

But I'd think the secrecy lwould not be worthwhile. Not only is it in the casino's favor, provided they don't overcomp foolishly, but I can imagine no way it wouldn't be obvious. The behavior would stand out like a sore thumb. There'd be hundreds and hundreds of wins, one on almost every hand, with no tipping and presumably near table-minimum bets. And you just don't often see that much consistent don't betting anyway.

I'd love to see an experiment where one team does that and another person at another table just makes a pass and a don't pass bet on every come-out, and see who gets more comps. I suspect the comps would be super low, but once they were convinced you'd stick around a long time, the open hedger might get better treatment.

...just my two cents. I don't know anything real world. I just find the scenario interesting to consider. My gut says that in craps casinos know that the hedging aspects of the game (generally unintentional) are a big part of why a table takes in far far
more than 1% of wagered money, and much more even than the combined vig of all bets made, including all the high vig bets. ...to be clear, if you are a typical pass/odds bettor and occasionally add a 7 bet to hedge, you'll most certainly lose more than the combined -EV of all your bets - in other words anytime multiple bets work against each other in a hedging scenario, intentionally or unintentionally, it effectively increases the house advantage on the aggregate.

As an aside, does anyone here know empirically how much an average craps table profits above and beyond the combined expectation of all bets, as a result from hedging? I suspect it's significant and I suspect the casinos are very aware of the effect.

Betting both sides doesn't cancel each other out perfectly, and violates the basic principle that combining bets that all have a house edge cannot result in an overall bet with no house edge

and ............................. you are no longer betting $25 each hand, now it's $50

expected value = amount of bet times edge, and the house edge is unchanged
50*1.4% = 70 cents loss per hand
25*1.4% = 35c per hand

lastly, if the casino pays you normal comps even knowing you and your buddy are teaming up, you are getting exactly what you are supposed to get. Yes, they may cut off comps if they suspect it, even though you are earning them ... you are totally risking that

sure, if you are getting overcomped by getting paid comps on free odds, go for that, but you don't need to be betting $50 per hand against an edge

I look at it as straight up buying points/comps by reducing (eliminating if they bet 12) variance.

It's mathematically an inferior bet by accepting a 'fee' larger than the edge, but if you're getting enough out of it, knowing that you're collecting a guaranteed amount does do wonders with sleeping better at night.

If you're playing Bubble Craps and getting $.01 for $6 of play (odds not counted) you'd have to make 5,000 X 2 $18 bets on the PB 6 & 8 to earn $300 in comps to pay for a $300 hotel room. It's more likely you'd make 500 X 2 $180 bets on both numbers instead for one day to get that $180K total bet for 30K points. If you were at a table you might get a $300 point credit for betting $150 X 2 on the PB 6 & 8 for 4 hours, but idk.
I'd personally have a buy-in of over $10K to be betting that high for that long. The comps seem insignificant and only value to 1 bet per 4 hours. Don't chase the comps and pay for the hotel room yourself if you reach your win goal ahead of time that includes $300 for the room.