The Adventures of MDawg II
Quote: MDawgQuote: DRichThe casinos in which I was in charge of compliance would run a report every 24 hours and fill out CTR's for anyone that put in over $10k in cash in the 24 hour period no matter how any different machines they played..
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That's what I figured, that whether the slots player is aware or not, if he managed to get over 10K cash into a machine that a CTR is going to be filed against him.
I assume that even if he plays unrated, that when he goes to cash out they'll ask for identification if he is cashing out a lot, and then match that identity with all his input of cash play. Or maybe the system has already been alerted that such and such TITOs belong to a player who has input a lot of cash, and they will ask for ID even if the tickets are split among different people. Tracking play at that level isn't as hard as people might think.
And if something obvious is going on to trying to divide up the cash play among different players to try to avoid coming under CTR scrutiny, then maybe even a SAR or two (or three, one for each participant) will be filed.
This also blows D.Oz's money laundering idea that he would just put 50K cash into a machine until he got enough hand pay win checks, because if a CTR is filed for the incoming cash, then the government is already alerted to cash going in, including to the fact that the cash was not recorded as going back out.
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from personal experience this is just a 100% wrong assumption.
see above!
And my knowledge of the applicable law and personal experience, coupled with DRich's inside knowledge and experience, say that a CTR (at least one, maybe more if you try to spread the laundering among different people) would be filed.
Whatever you are doing you are obviously playing with Player Cards because you want to get some kind of free play from your scheme. So they know all along who you are, and must be filing CTRs against you right and left if you're inputting that much cash.
Basically your $50K cash into a slot machine without detection to try to get $50K or more in checks is not going to work. Not without detection.
Quote: MDawgExcept that you have no idea if a CTR is being filed or not.
And my knowledge of the law and personal experienced, coupled with DRich's inside knowledge and experience, say that a CTR would be filed.
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First, I personally dont care. I have proof I pay plenty of money in taxes so not even certain what the CTR would matter. I have won over thirty grand in a day so questioning where I got thirty grand is just dumb..
But I am quite certain the casinos don't and are not filing CTR's on me for the simple fact that IF they were following me around to that extent then they would have noticed I had played on dozens of different players cards and those cards would be shut down. Trust me, they would be much more interested in my use of other players cards than on filing a CTR.
The fact that I can put thirty grand of play through in an afternoon on dozens of different players cards without security approaching me on daily and weekly schedules is proof that neither you nor DRIch have it correct.
BUT if you would like to put it to the test, stop reporting any income other than what you get from W-2Gs for five years, and let us know if the government doesn't come knocking. With a stack of CTRs (and maybe a gang of SARs too) being disclosed at your criminal trial as part of the discovery evidence.
Quote: MDawgBased on that you continually argue long dead points alone, I am discounting this scheme of yours. But besides that, all the credible evidence gainsays that your scheme would work.
BUT if you would like to put it to the test, stop reporting any income other than what you get from W-2Gs for five years, and let us know if the government doesn't come knocking. With a stack of CTRs being disclosed at your criminal trial as part of the discovery evidence.
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I've already said I report no other source of income except gambling and it's been over five years. No one has come knocking on my door.
SO test performed.
And what criminal trial? it's a crime to report winning w2-G's and paying taxes on them?
Quote: MDawgSo you don't report the money you make from your scheme? The "$20,000. a week" (but not every week)?
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I said I report nothing but gambling income.
what do you think multi-carding is?
And they would have more reason to question that as it's more on my word than the actual W2g documents.
Quote: MDawgThat makes my point then.
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the point that you don't know what you are talking about. Thanks.
Quote: MDawgThat you would think reporting the money from your scheme is the same as reporting no money from anything other than the W-2Gs, makes a great deal of sense actually.
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The point that you think the IRS discounts W2G's as not being proof you won money in a casino isn't the same as any other physical proof you earned icome says you know nothing about this subject.
You should just quit at this point.
From that point on I've simply been watching you try without success to say something relevant.
Quote: MDawgDRich already corroborated what I already suspected, which is that CTRs would be filed against someone who tries to get $50K cash into a slot machine.
From that point on I've simply been watching you try to say something relevant, without success.
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Well, I don't go by what DRich says. I go by my own experience.
I have filed nothing but gambling income for years. I have put more than fifty grand through the machines (although it wasn't actually more than thirty tops. And there hasn't been a problem.
My business (not a scheme anymore than your BJ play is a scheme) has been running for over a decade.
And I do nothing criminal since I even pay my taxes so what affect does a CTR even mean?
I've been watching these high limit players on YouTube and they don't seem to be encumbered by a $3K limit. They can take a $50K TITO from one machine and put it in another. Maybe some high limit rooms don't have the $3K limit. It probably has to do with entering a PIN number on your player's card in lieu of an attendant hand pay. I don't think >$10K TITOs count as a CTR thing until you go to the cage.
Quote: ChumpChangeOne of my early posts years ago relayed a story about a guy leaving the casino and he was chased down by security demanding his tax information. The player asked what for. Casino wouldn't tell him, If the casino is filing a CTR on a slot player for putting in more than $10K cash in a slot machine in a day, they might want his tax information. So that player never returned to that casino.
I've been watching these high limit players on YouTube and they don't seem to be encumbered by a $3K limit. They can take a $50K TITO from one machine and put it in another. Maybe some high limit rooms don't have the $3K limit. It probably has to do with entering a PIN number on your player's card in lieu of an attendant hand pay. I don't think >$10K TITOs count as a CTR thing until you go to the cage.
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Ahh, good point so let me clarify.
Most casinos won't let you put in $3000+ in cash. However I have had no problem putting in vouchers that were higher.
Let's say I put in $3000 cash and win $1000. I can now cash out that $4000 tito and place it into a different slot machine. Although I would have to go see a cashier to cash it until it dips below $3000 again.
That's not everywhere. I know a few places such as the Tropicana in AC (this was a few years ago so maybe different now) forced a hand pay. So for example Let's say I have $2800 in the slot and win $250 on a spin. The machine forces a hand pay for $50, the amount over $3000
There is no W2-G issued in that scenario obviously.
Just an FYI that could be concidered structuring. I understand you are not doing it for structuring purposes they might even know that, but whenever a casino gets pissed off you beat them, they will use just about any tactic to get you.Quote: darkoz
I have cashed out over thirty thousand dollars at redemption machines in just one afternoon at the same casino. I wouldn't do it all at once. Just walk around and cash out four or five grand at a time. But that's just an abundance of caution on my part.
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This has happened to sports bettors who weren't attempting to structure they just needed to move money around to different books. It didn't end all that well for them and they had to settle thus losing a good percentage of their money on deposit.
Yeah, they might even let those guys spread 50-1 for many hours.Quote: MDawgI imagine some are playing even worse.
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Quote: AxelWolfJust an FYI that could be concidered structuring. I understand you are not doing it for structuring purposes they might even know that, but whenever a casino gets pissed off you beat them, they will use just about any tactic to get you.Quote: darkoz
I have cashed out over thirty thousand dollars at redemption machines in just one afternoon at the same casino. I wouldn't do it all at once. Just walk around and cash out four or five grand at a time. But that's just an abundance of caution on my part.
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This has happened to sports bettors who weren't attempting to structure they just needed to move money around to different books. It didn't end all that well for them and they had to settle thus losing a good percentage of their money on deposit.
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Thanks. I could see them trying that. I don't walk around the casino cashing out at the end. I do a batch of players cards, cash out, then go back to playing then cash out what I win from that.
I believe using different banks is a bit more suspicious than cashing out at the same casino at different times of day. Ultimately it's not up to me to follow my movements. I could argue the casino is at fault for not doing their job.
In fact the CTR law stated a casino must report if the amount exceeds in aggregate for a reporting day. It is up to the casino to keep track. If I am walking around with my face in full view of 2500 cameras and the casino fails to report me that's on them. There is nothing written on the vouchers that states a patron must cash out all at once upon pain of law.
Conversely if they did notice me then why didn't they simply do their job as required by law and file a CTR(which is what MDawg is claiming they do without my knowledge). And if they did file a CTR as required by law for my aggregate cash out how did I perform structuring? I cashed out in aggregate in full view of the camera and the casino did what they were supposed to?
I don't believe they could prosecute under these circumstances and over the years I have been caught cashing out from players cards many thousands. That's never even been raised.
You proposed a hypothetical scheme to launder money successfully, with someone who reports no income otherwise (no income reported other than the W-2Gs), and sticks $50K cash into a slot machine and then hopes that the W-2Gs he gets will carry the day. DRich and I pointed out, and so did someone else over there in the other thread, that such a scheme would result in CTRs being filed against the input of currency. The combination of CTRs, maybe even SARs, and no reportable income other than the W-2Gs, would not be an effective money laundering scheme.
I can see how you'd think that a bunch of W-2Gs would be better than no record at all, but in this instance with no reportable income and CTRs and SARs on the input, it would not. If you think so, that's your opinion, and we know that you are not one to back down once you've decided what's what.
Ideally, money launderers want no record of what happens, leaving them a free hand to arrange their own version of events.
Quote: MDawgHeavier rains, intermittent gusty winds.
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There were very heavy winds at times, and heavy rainfall at times, but otherwise it just reminded me of being on say, Kauai, during a typically windy rainstorm. In fact, the winds were more intermittent than a typical tropical storm.
There were portions of southern California that were hit very hard, and that did suffer flooding.
Where we live it wasn't so bad, and it looks like even the clouds will clear later today.
Interesting that the storm was named Hilary. Maybe someday we'll get one named Donald.
Hilary leaves massive flooding, mudslides, upheaval across Southern California
Quote: MDawg
Interesting that the storm was named Hilary. Maybe someday we'll get one named Donald.
Hilary leaves massive flooding, mudslides, upheaval across Southern California
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There have been 11 storms named Hilary going back to the 1960's, and three named Don since 2011. But doesn't look like any have been named Donald. The most recent Hurricane Don was last month.
What if the storm is particularly bad, do they retire the name like a sports legend's jersey?
Quote: MDawgI did not know that. I assumed that the names could be used once only.
What if the storm is particularly bad, do they retire the name like a sports legend's jersey?
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Yes, they actually do retire the names if it's really bad. Katrina was retired, for example.
Quote: MDawgThere are others who have accused you of exaggerating income or evading taxes or structuring or whatever but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. No need to defend to me anyway, whatever it is you are actually doing as far as tax consequences.
You proposed a hypothetical scheme to launder money successfully, with someone who reports no income otherwise (no income reported other than the W-2Gs), and sticks $50K cash into a slot machine and then hopes that the W-2Gs he gets will carry the day. DRich and I pointed out, and so did someone else over there in the other thread, that such a scheme would result in CTRs being filed against the input of currency. The combination of CTRs, maybe even SARs, and no reportable income other than the W-2Gs, would not be an effective money laundering scheme.
I can see how you'd think that a bunch of W-2Gs would be better than no record at all, but in this instance with no reportable income and CTRs and SARs on the input, it would not. If you think so, that's your opinion, and we know that you are not one to back down once you've decided what's what.
Ideally, money launderers want no record of what happens, leaving them a free hand to arrange their own version of events.
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Okay let's say your claim is correct that the scheme I mentioned wouldn't work unless they list other income
The other income I list(which you say is appropriate enough)I have no proof of. It's just cash I pulled out of the casino from freeplay. I don't download other players win/loss statements, I don't list that I am using other players freeplay. It's just cash income from gambling that I report.
So ergo my scheme for money laundering would work. All they have to do is report some made up numbers and write a fake diary that they won cash at the casinos on top of the W2-G which alone you (mistakenly imo) believe aren't proof of income.
So scheme works if some money launderer wants to try it. They will just take your advice and add a few fake numbers.
If someone hasn't filed in years, and remains under the radar with no CTRs, no SARs, no W-2Gs, the government might think he's just earning under the filing threshold. Meantime he's laundering money in ways that get him checks with no reporting to the government.
But if he follows your hypothetical scheme allasudden he is filing and claiming good income out of nowhere, with CTRs, maybe SARs, plus W-2Gs. Now, I suppose in a way that's YOU going from no filing the years you were homeless, to now filing, but you also used to file under your movie business related income and from you said owed back taxes, which you eventually paid. So maybe they viewed you as a hero who made good on his back taxes and just want to leave you alone for now.
Point being that some ghost who comes out of nowhere suddenly filing returns with unexplained income and CTRs, maybe SARs, and W-2Gs, might trigger a review of his finances. Over all the goverment assumes that people cannot win at gambling.
How do you file anyway? Do you list as professional gambler? Guy who makes $20K a week (but not every week). Casino schemer?
I'm not criticizing here, but there seems to be some interweaving of what money launderers are trying to do and what professional gamblers are trying to do.Quote: MDawgI'd think that filing a falsified tax return is worse than filing no return?
If someone hasn't filed in years, and remains under the radar with no CTRs, no SARs, no W-2Gs, the government might think he's just earning under the filing threshold. Meantime he's laundering money in ways that get him checks with no reporting to the government.
But if he follows your hypothetical scheme allasudden he is filing and claiming good income out of nowhere, with CTRs, maybe SARs, plus W-2Gs. Now, I suppose in a way that's YOU going from no filing the years you were homeless, to now filing, but you also used to file under your movie business related income and from you said owed back taxes, which you eventually paid. So maybe they viewed you as a hero who made good on his back taxes and just want to leave you alone for now.
Point being that some ghost who comes out of nowhere suddenly filing returns with unexplained income and CTRs, maybe SARs, and W-2Gs, might trigger a review of his finances. Over all the goverment assumes that people cannot win at gambling.
How do you file anyway? Do you list as professional gambler? Guy who makes $20K a week (but not every week). Casino schemer?
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Quote: MDawgI'd think that filing a falsified tax return is worse than filing no return?
If someone hasn't filed in years, and remains under the radar with no CTRs, no SARs, no W-2Gs, the government might think he's just earning under the filing threshold. Meantime he's laundering money in ways that get him checks with no reporting to the government.
But if he follows your hypothetical scheme allasudden he is filing and claiming good income out of nowhere, with CTRs, maybe SARs, plus W-2Gs. Now, I suppose in a way that's YOU going from no filing the years you were homeless, to now filing, but you also used to file under your movie business related income and from you said owed back taxes, which you eventually paid. So maybe they viewed you as a hero who made good on his back taxes and just want to leave you alone for now.
Point being that some ghost who comes out of nowhere suddenly filing returns with unexplained income and CTRs, maybe SARs, and W-2Gs, might trigger a review of his finances. Over all the goverment assumes that people cannot win at gambling.
How do you file anyway? Do you list as professional gambler? Guy who makes $20K a week (but not every week). Casino schemer?
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I just hand everything over to my tax professional who is located in Atlantic City and specializes in gambling returns and let him handle it. He asks me questions and then says I got good news or bad news (ironically it's usually neutral news. I wind up getting a refund in one state and owing same to another since I gamble in multiple locations.)
BTW - not once has he given me any suggestions that reportingW2-G is suspicious lol. I trust my licensed tax pro more than you for tax advice. Double BTW - he is licensed in both NY and NJ because I am a resident I'm NY otherwise he couldn't handle me so his credentials are valid in multiple locations. Your credentials for tax knowledge is accredited nowhere.
So now you are throwing in extra info to try to win your argument something you have been accused of many times.
At no time did we discuss the money launderers of our proposed scenario had to have years of no filings or be of such an age (forties? Fifties?) That suddenly reporting income looks suspicious.
Also I don't believe you really have a clue what the IRS is looking for. You just make stuff up. I know one person who after years on the public dole finally started their own business. I know someone with drug problems that cleaned themselves up and got work. According to you those people are suspicious lol because they had no prior reporting years.
At any rate I still don't get your argument about a review of his finances theory. His W2-G is his proof of income. You don't need fifty grand to start winning W2-G. All you need is a few hundred bucks. You can claim to win more W2-G.
And how do you report your winning at Baccarat and Blackjack if you believe the IRS assumes everyone loses at gambling
I ASKED THIS OF YOU BEFORE AND YOU IGNORED IT. I the IRS believes no one can win at gambling then either:
A: you aren't winning at BJ and Baccarat like you claim
B:You aren't reporting your wins on your IRS tax form
C: The IRS does accept your claims of winning at BJ and Baccarat so your whole theory is BS.
So which is it?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/
You proposed some hypothetical scheme that would convert cash to checks, for verified slot machine winnings. You opined that this would result in no CTRs, but DRich, who works or worked in the casino industry, stated that it probably would result in CTRs.
Now, we differ as to whether your scheme would work under the radar, or not.
That's all.
Quote: MDawgDRich already corroborated what I already suspected, which is that CTRs would be filed against someone who tries to get $50K cash into a slot machine.
From that point on I've simply been watching you try without success to say something relevant.
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I believe I said that at the casinos I worked with they would have CTR's filed if the same carded player put in more than $10k. Spread that $50k amongst 10 cards you probably would get away with it.
Quote: DRichQuote: MDawgDRich already corroborated what I already suspected, which is that CTRs would be filed against someone who tries to get $50K cash into a slot machine.
From that point on I've simply been watching you try without success to say something relevant.
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I believe I said that at the casinos I worked with they would have CTR's filed if the same carded player put in more than $10k. Spread that $50k amongst 10 cards you probably would get away with it.
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Thank you DRich.
Bingo!
And once again MDAWG you also ignore my questions about what you do with your gambling winnings and the IRS.
Please respond to what you do. Because according to you the IRS would find your winning so much suspicious.
So do you get suspicious audits or you don't report your winning or you don't actually win like you claim. Which is it
Quote: unJonDarkOz, are you saying a slot player could walk in with some amount, such as $9k, play high limit slots and be a loser for the day overall (maybe down $2k) but end up with a TITO for $7k from a hand pay jackpot with corresponding W-2G. And then get a check for the $7k?
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Not the way you described it.
The choice to accept cash or check is at the payout of the jackpot.
Scenario
You go in with $9000. Gambling you lose six thousand and then win a jackpot for $6000. You tell the attendant you wish to be paid by check. She doesn't return with cash to count out she returns with a check for $6000.
You still have $3000 cash. You put that in and win small amounts (say a few single spins of a thousand dollars won) and you cash out a $7000 tito. You can only cash that at the cashier. But you can still Play that at other slots.
If you are asking can you get a check for the $7000 tito at the cage I don't believe so. However I never tried that.
Also as I stated different casinos even in the same locale handle the $3000 limit different. Some you can never have a tito over $3000 and if you get a win that goes over you are forced into a handpay for the balance over.
That's clearly casino choice because I have seen it handled differently within the same jurisdiction.
EDIT: While I never asked at the cashier for a check there could be some possibility for it because the machines can only be loaded up to $3000. That means if you have a $7000 tito you must have won at least $4000 so why not issue a check for verified winnings of at least $4000. But again I am not certain of that aspect
Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfJust an FYI that could be concidered structuring. I understand you are not doing it for structuring purposes they might even know that, but whenever a casino gets pissed off you beat them, they will use just about any tactic to get you.Quote: darkoz
I have cashed out over thirty thousand dollars at redemption machines in just one afternoon at the same casino. I wouldn't do it all at once. Just walk around and cash out four or five grand at a time. But that's just an abundance of caution on my part.
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This has happened to sports bettors who weren't attempting to structure they just needed to move money around to different books. It didn't end all that well for them and they had to settle thus losing a good percentage of their money on deposit.
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Thanks. I could see them trying that. I don't walk around the casino cashing out at the end. I do a batch of players cards, cash out, then go back to playing then cash out what I win from that.
I believe using different banks is a bit more suspicious than cashing out at the same casino at different times of day. Ultimately it's not up to me to follow my movements. I could argue the casino is at fault for not doing their job.
In fact the CTR law stated a casino must report if the amount exceeds in aggregate for a reporting day. It is up to the casino to keep track. If I am walking around with my face in full view of 2500 cameras and the casino fails to report me that's on them. There is nothing written on the vouchers that states a patron must cash out all at once upon pain of law.
Conversely if they did notice me then why didn't they simply do their job as required by law and file a CTR(which is what MDawg is claiming they do without my knowledge). And if they did file a CTR as required by law for my aggregate cash out how did I perform structuring? I cashed out in aggregate in full view of the camera and the casino did what they were supposed to?
I don't believe they could prosecute under these circumstances and over the years I have been caught cashing out from players cards many thousands. That's never even been raised.
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As your attorney I advise you to not talk so much. If I were living in that glass house you're in, one where you were even afraid to report a theft of cash from your own apartment, I wouldn't lay it all out here every time you get heated and want to win an online argument over a hypothetical.
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfJust an FYI that could be concidered structuring. I understand you are not doing it for structuring purposes they might even know that, but whenever a casino gets pissed off you beat them, they will use just about any tactic to get you.Quote: darkoz
I have cashed out over thirty thousand dollars at redemption machines in just one afternoon at the same casino. I wouldn't do it all at once. Just walk around and cash out four or five grand at a time. But that's just an abundance of caution on my part.
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This has happened to sports bettors who weren't attempting to structure they just needed to move money around to different books. It didn't end all that well for them and they had to settle thus losing a good percentage of their money on deposit.
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Thanks. I could see them trying that. I don't walk around the casino cashing out at the end. I do a batch of players cards, cash out, then go back to playing then cash out what I win from that.
I believe using different banks is a bit more suspicious than cashing out at the same casino at different times of day. Ultimately it's not up to me to follow my movements. I could argue the casino is at fault for not doing their job.
In fact the CTR law stated a casino must report if the amount exceeds in aggregate for a reporting day. It is up to the casino to keep track. If I am walking around with my face in full view of 2500 cameras and the casino fails to report me that's on them. There is nothing written on the vouchers that states a patron must cash out all at once upon pain of law.
Conversely if they did notice me then why didn't they simply do their job as required by law and file a CTR(which is what MDawg is claiming they do without my knowledge). And if they did file a CTR as required by law for my aggregate cash out how did I perform structuring? I cashed out in aggregate in full view of the camera and the casino did what they were supposed to?
I don't believe they could prosecute under these circumstances and over the years I have been caught cashing out from players cards many thousands. That's never even been raised.
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You talk too much DarkOz. If I were living in that glass house you're in, one where you were even afraid to report a theft of cash from your own apartment, I wouldn't lay it all out here every time you get heated and want to win an online argument over a hypothetical.
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I have nothing to worry about. If cashing out in the same casino without a disguise is now structuring I will defend myself and win in court. AxelWolf mentioned a group that used DIFFERENT sports books to cash out the same day. The law is actually quite clear on filing CTR. The casino must report if they observe a cash out either over $10,000 at once or in aggregate. So clearly cashing out amounts in aggregate at the same location isn't illegal.
You Guys really need to stop using your imagination on this. I'm surprised an attorney would even use AxelWolf as your expert testimony.
Also you now have 100% ignored my questions to you about your taxes
Do you file your winnings with the IRS?
Or do you not have winnings?
Or do you really believe that the IRS believes everyone is a loser at gambling and yet you haven't been audited?
Which is it? If I worked for the IRS it would be you I was interested in investigating since you clearly have read my questions three times and won't even respond to their existence.
What do you have to hide MDawg?
Quote: MDawgA radish may know no Greek, but I do.
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So at this point MDawg basically is saying he doesn't want to incriminate himself in some fashion.
Meanwhile he laughingly accuses me of everything from laundering to structuring.
I will be sure to cook you a plate of chutzpah and gefilte fish whenever we wind up meeting
Quote: MDawgWell no, I'm just saying that I'm much smarter than a radish.
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Turnips and radishes aren't that smart to begin with.
They both get spoiled.
Quote: darkozQuote: unJonDarkOz, are you saying a slot player could walk in with some amount, such as $9k, play high limit slots and be a loser for the day overall (maybe down $2k) but end up with a TITO for $7k from a hand pay jackpot with corresponding W-2G. And then get a check for the $7k?
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Not the way you described it.
The choice to accept cash or check is at the payout of the jackpot.
Scenario
You go in with $9000. Gambling you lose six thousand and then win a jackpot for $6000. You tell the attendant you wish to be paid by check. She doesn't return with cash to count out she returns with a check for $6000.
You still have $3000 cash. You put that in and win small amounts (say a few single spins of a thousand dollars won) and you cash out a $7000 tito. You can only cash that at the cashier. But you can still Play that at other slots.
If you are asking can you get a check for the $7000 tito at the cage I don't believe so. However I never tried that.
Also as I stated different casinos even in the same locale handle the $3000 limit different. Some you can never have a tito over $3000 and if you get a win that goes over you are forced into a handpay for the balance over.
That's clearly casino choice because I have seen it handled differently within the same jurisdiction.
EDIT: While I never asked at the cashier for a check there could be some possibility for it because the machines can only be loaded up to $3000. That means if you have a $7000 tito you must have won at least $4000 so why not issue a check for verified winnings of at least $4000. But again I am not certain of that aspect
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In your scenario you picked up a $6,000 check without a $6,000 “verified win” since you were net even at that point. MDawg any thoughts on why the casino would have a different money laundering policy for slots vs table games?
Quote: unJonQuote: darkozQuote: unJonDarkOz, are you saying a slot player could walk in with some amount, such as $9k, play high limit slots and be a loser for the day overall (maybe down $2k) but end up with a TITO for $7k from a hand pay jackpot with corresponding W-2G. And then get a check for the $7k?
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Not the way you described it.
The choice to accept cash or check is at the payout of the jackpot.
Scenario
You go in with $9000. Gambling you lose six thousand and then win a jackpot for $6000. You tell the attendant you wish to be paid by check. She doesn't return with cash to count out she returns with a check for $6000.
You still have $3000 cash. You put that in and win small amounts (say a few single spins of a thousand dollars won) and you cash out a $7000 tito. You can only cash that at the cashier. But you can still Play that at other slots.
If you are asking can you get a check for the $7000 tito at the cage I don't believe so. However I never tried that.
Also as I stated different casinos even in the same locale handle the $3000 limit different. Some you can never have a tito over $3000 and if you get a win that goes over you are forced into a handpay for the balance over.
That's clearly casino choice because I have seen it handled differently within the same jurisdiction.
EDIT: While I never asked at the cashier for a check there could be some possibility for it because the machines can only be loaded up to $3000. That means if you have a $7000 tito you must have won at least $4000 so why not issue a check for verified winnings of at least $4000. But again I am not certain of that aspect
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In your scenario you picked up a $6,000 check without a $6,000 “verified win” since you were net even at that point. MDawg any thoughts on why the casino would have a different money laundering policy for slots vs table games?
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He's strangely silent but table games issue no tax documents for wins over $1200. Make a $3000 wager in BJ and if you win you get paid $3000 in winning chips. No W2-G handed out. Correct me if I am wrong but the only exception are those large progressives like $464,682 type of wins. I never won any so that's upon belief.
What MDAWG is failing to understand is that W2-G are official tax documents handed out by a casino. A W2-G IS VERIFIED WINNINGS as far as IRS reporting is concerned.
When filing taxes it is IRS language that win/loss statements from players card tracking info is considered incomplete information because players can and do gamble unrated.
W2-G documents are certainly NOT considered unreliable documents by the IRS. In fact from my OWN experience I misplaced a W2-G one year and received IRS notification that I had underreported my income by the winning amount and an adjustment and associated penalties and interest were assessed. They get handed corroborating documents from the casino no different than an employer sends in copies of payment and deductions.
That the IRS would find verified W2-G wins as suspicious is laughable and ridiculous.
This whole argument by MDAWG that reporting only OFFICIAL TAX DOCUMENTED WINS would make the IRS suspicious is ridiculous
Quote: darkoz
He's strangely silent but table games issue no tax documents for wins over $1200. Make a $3000 wager in BJ and if you win you get paid $3000 in winning chips. No W2-G handed out. Correct me if I am wrong but the only exception are those large progressives like $464,682 type of wins. I never won any so that's upon belief.
I believe W2G's are still issued for table games if the winnings are more than 300 times the bet amount.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
He's strangely silent but table games issue no tax documents for wins over $1200. Make a $3000 wager in BJ and if you win you get paid $3000 in winning chips. No W2-G handed out. Correct me if I am wrong but the only exception are those large progressives like $464,682 type of wins. I never won any so that's upon belief.
I believe W2G's are still issued for table games if the winnings are more than 300 times the bet amount.
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That's good to know but still significantly different than slots where $1200 is the sacrosanct trigger.
You can even LOSE money on a spin and get a w2g. There are a few slots for $2500 a spin and if you won $1500 (a thousand dollars loss) you would trigger a W2-G.
(Disclaimer I never took a $2500 spin which was max bet but on that same slot I took a $750 spin and won $1400 which triggered a W2-G so that is based upon information and belief)
Quote: darkoz
You can even LOSE money on a spin and get a w2g. There are a few slots for $2500 a spin and if you won $1500 (a thousand dollars loss) you would trigger a W2-G.
(Disclaimer I never took a $2500 spin which was max bet but on that same slot I took a $750 spin and won $1400 which triggered a W2-G so that is based upon information and belief)
Yes, that is correct.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
You can even LOSE money on a spin and get a w2g. There are a few slots for $2500 a spin and if you won $1500 (a thousand dollars loss) you would trigger a W2-G.
(Disclaimer I never took a $2500 spin which was max bet but on that same slot I took a $750 spin and won $1400 which triggered a W2-G so that is based upon information and belief)
Yes, that is correct.
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Good to know although obviously you'd claim the $1000 loss in that scenario. The W2-G also lists the wager amount so the loss is easily factored. Now claiming $1500 income on a $1500 W2-G triggered by a $2500 spin might raise some eyebrows at the IRS.
However Something tells me they would be more inclined to keep the money as extra from a sucker taxpayer than argue its an overpayment
Anyway,
Quote: MDawgThe W-2G doesn't mean anyone won anything net, just that that particular spin resulted in a payout over $1200.
Anyway,
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Then the casino shouldn’t issue a check per AML, right?
As to whether his scheme would work, I already said, I don't believe it would.
