The Adventures of MDawg II

Quote: Dieter

I've heard a bit about the GNAC incident, but I don't know about a similar strip incident.
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I too was going to comment this sounds just like the GN incident in Atlantic City. I've never heard of a similar one in Vegas.

More interesting to me than that this happened in Vegas is that one of the Strip majors uses the same pre shuffled cards from the same company and still doesn't give the cards any hand shuffle - just hands them straight out of the box for player cut and play. Time is money, I guess.

Quote: MDawg

More interesting to me than that this happened in Vegas is that one of the Strip majors uses the same pre shuffled cards from the same company and still doesn't give the cards any hand shuffle - just hands them straight out of the box for player cut and play. Time is money, I guess.
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If I may ask, which brand of cards?

Quote: TigerWu

Honestly, memorizing a deck of cards isn't THAT hard.... I mean, I can't do it, but I know there are basic mnemonic tricks where if you practice for a few months you can do it. It's even easier if you discount suits and just focus on values, and I imagine it's even easier still if you only stop after 20 or 30 cards.

Now, doing that while actively playing Blackjack, using perfect basic strategy, AND counting cards, that probably ramps up the difficulty again.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: tuttigym

Sounds like another EB to move the goal posts and thus intimidate the skeptics.

tuttigym
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What you don't know about it would fill a football field and what you do know would fill a thimble.
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Oh, look, another personal insult from EvenBob. What are the odds.
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And the mods turn a blind eye because the affront is against tuttigym.

tuttigym

I thought it was a geometry problem and was 10th grade math, not 4th grade math.

Quote: EvenBob

What you don't know about it would fill a football field and what you do know would fill a thimble.
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Personal insult. Three days.

Quote: tuttigym

And the mods turn a blind eye because the affront is against tuttigym.

tuttigym
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Okay, since you're clearing pressing charges, EB gets three days. So shall you be judged next time by the same measure.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: MDawg

More interesting to me than that this happened in Vegas is that one of the Strip majors uses the same pre shuffled cards from the same company and still doesn't give the cards any hand shuffle - just hands them straight out of the box for player cut and play. Time is money, I guess.
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If I may ask, which brand of cards?
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MDawg told me privately that he did not want to share the details about the card company. I respect that.
He did reveal to me, in confidence, where the unshuffled cards incident occurred in Vegas.

If I'm breaching a confidence here, I'll give myself a suspension.

edit: correction

Quote: Wizard

Quote: EvenBob

What you don't know about it would fill a football field and what you do know would fill a thimble.
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Personal insult. Three days.
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3 days only? I guess you forget how Martingale works.

Martingale for even repeat offenses was officially abandoned at WOV two and a half years ago pursuant to what Wizard has called the New More Lenient Moderation. Not so new really, been like that for over two years now.

The same way casinos stopped allowing money laundering via cash for check over twenty years ago.

Where have you been?

Quote: Wizard

Quote: tuttigym

And the mods turn a blind eye because the affront is against tuttigym.

tuttigym
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Okay, since you're clearing pressing charges, EB gets three days. So shall you be judged next time by the same measure.
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You already have. The last suspension was justified, no argument here. Did you turn a blind eye to Tiger's post on the definition of racism?

BTW, I am not asking for anyone to be suspended just a level playing field.

tuttigym

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Dieter

Quote: MDawg

More interesting to me than that this happened in Vegas is that one of the Strip majors uses the same pre shuffled cards from the same company and still doesn't give the cards any hand shuffle - just hands them straight out of the box for player cut and play. Time is money, I guess.
link to original post

If I may ask, which brand of cards?
link to original post

MDawg told me privately that he did not want to share the details about the card company. I respect that.
He did reveal to me, in confidence, where the unshuffled cards incident occurred in Vegas.

If I'm breaching a confidence here, I'll give myself a suspension.

edit: correction
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I stated awhile ago that I believe MDawg is using a glitch in preshuffled cards. It would make sense he doesn't want the details of the company discussed

Quote: darkoz

I stated awhile ago that I believe MDawg is using a glitch in preshuffled cards. It would make sense he doesn't want the details of the company discussed
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I mean, it's gotta be what, USPC, Paulson, or Gemaco? The details of the Golden Nugget incident are easily googlable, so it's probably that company.

Aren't that many playing card companies that Vegas uses...

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Dieter

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

BTW the Baccarat incident you mentioned was at the Golden Nugget in Atlantic city.
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Perhaps it happened there too. I play in Vegas only and referred to an incident in Vegas.
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I'm intrigued and would like to know more.
I've heard a bit about the GNAC incident, but I don't know about a similar strip incident.
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Neither of you are in Vegas, which would explain why you have not heard of this, but I found out about it just because I play a lot in Vegas. I first heard about it, what was it, four years ago. I heard it again, and then again, and then eventually one day I was talking to the crew that was there when it happened.

Incidentally in Vegas the players got to keep whatever they won. The whole incident probably the casino just wanted it to be forgotten.

Some of these guys who claim to play a lot in Vegas are probably just staying at home a lot and not in the casinos much because if they were, they'd have heard about something like this too. And a lot of other things.

Not everything makes the papers, for obvious reasons. I actually had not heard of the Atlantic City incident. I get a lot of my casino news by living it not reading about it.
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I don't doubt you but I do believe there is a heavy possibility that the crew that claimed they were there is lying.

In point of fact I heard a crew at Resorts International in AC make the claim they were there when the GN AC incident occurred AND that it happened right in Resorts.

I didn't argue but I knew they were full of it.

It apparently has become such legend that dealers are proud to discuss the incident inserting themselves into it. Or perhaps enough people called BS that by saying they were there it keeps people from refuting them.

The GN nugget in AC hit the papers because the casino sued for the return of the cash. I can't believe any Strip casino would not follow precedent and try to recover such a damaging financial blow especially when the GN prevailed.

More likely you are being hoodwinked in a minor way by eager dealers who want some share of the glory of a great story for their customers.

I'm really more interested in what my next watch might be. My wife would disagree and say she's more interested in what her next piece of jewelry might be.

Which she's not really that interested in more jewelry but when she sees me spending on watches she wants to be thought of as well.

Quote: MDawg

I'm really more interested in what my next watch might be. My wife would disagree and say she's more interested in what her next piece of jewelry might be.

Which she's not really that interested in more jewelry but when she sees me spending on watches she wants to be thought of as well.
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Everyone got quiet because you suddenly changed the subject from glitches in preshuffled cards to what your next watch might be

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes I am certain I can get a check from a casino without verified winnings. That's not going to be the bet, however.

If he's never gotten a cage casino check for a table game win in his entire life, that would make his certainty, meaningless.

In any case, this is the Cash for Check Challenge and he still has tonight to accept it.

So far, it doesn't seem that he understands the Challenge, or how or why cages won't issue checks other than for winnings or return of non-cash funds. Possibly, he's still in some world of thirty years ago where casinos weren't as concerned about money laundering.
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Quote: MDawg

This topic has arisen in various discussions related to what it means when a casino issues a check to a player, however it is an important topic with reference to how casinos operate in general.

Casinos are very strict especially nowadays with their anti-money laundering provisions.

31 CFR § 1021.210 provides that casinos must implement anti-money laundering provisions. Allowing a check to be issued in exchange for cash, for example, is definitely not anti-money laundering!

In general, a check issued by a casino is only pursuant to a win.

This was from 1996
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1996/jun/09/laundering-laws-keep-casinos-in-check/


Nevada also bars certain transactions the Bank Secrecy Act allows. Specifically, it says casinos can't:

* Exchange more than $2,500 in cash for bills of a larger denomination.

* Issue a casino check in exchange for more than $2,500 in cash.

* Transfer more than $2,500 by wire or other means.


Again, the above were the rules in 1996.

And the rules are MUCH stricter today. Today they won't allow even one penny in cash to be converted to a casino check. For example, back in the very early 2000s people could still "money play" at the tables. Nowadays that is not allowed and only chips may be played at the tables. Just in general everything is much stricter now than it was, but even in 1996 there was no way anyone could convert any meaningful sum of cash into a check at a casino.

These are representative of the newer, stricter guidelines in place today:
https://www.americangaming.org/sites/default/files/Best%20Practice%202017.pdf

These are suggested rules for casinos, which have been adopted by nearly all Nevada casinos these days:



How does this play out in some real world examples?

1) Casino issued checks:

Bottom line:

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to receive a CHECK from a casino for cash put into action. That would be straight money laundering.

A check issued by the casino may be for only two things: (1) a return of a front money deposit made by cashier's check or bank wire, or (2) a verified win. END OF STORY. If the check is marked "Verified Win" or “Pit Winnings” it means verified win – such a notation is not placed on the check lightly, and is pursuant to the Casino’s Compliance Division. Some casinos do not bother to mark their check memos with anything at all, however, ANY check issued by a casino would be ONLY for (1) or (2) as described above.

At the cage when cashing out chips of any substantial value the cage must verify (A) that no markers (credit line instruments representing money borrowed) are owed, and (B) that the pit boss has verified the exact win. If the win is not verified the casino will not cash any chips at all, especially not high denomination ones, and will certainly not issue a check for any chips unless it verifies every penny of the win.

Yes you may “find” a 100 or even 500 chip, maybe even a 1000 chip at a high end casino, and cash it out for cash, without having to establish how you got it, but nowadays show up at the cage with thousands in chips and you are not getting anything back for those until you establish how you got them. And in any case, NO casino will issue a paper check for chips turned in at the cage unless it represents either a return of cashier’s check or wired in front money or a verified win.


2) Casino policies with reference to front money deposits.

I had a conversation with a WOV member about front money and credit and how it works as far as whether front money or credit is drawn against first when playing.

In general it is correct to say that if you have a credit line and win, and choose to deposit the winning chips at the cage, or deposit cash that you won somewhere else (another casino or say at sports book) that future draws at the tables will deduct against the front money first, and then against your line if you deplete all the front money with draws.

However what doesn’t seem to make sense, is the way the cage likes to hold on to all of your deposited chips or cash as one separate account, running a tally of what you have deposited, and a separate tally of any markers you have drawn, and then settle at the end of the trip. In other words, even though yes, in this scenario of depositing chips or cash at the cage any draws at the tables are technically drawn against front money first, still, the cage is keeping separate accounts and doesn’t like to give you your front money drawn markers back against a reduction of front money, until the end of the trip.

Let's say you have a $100K credit line and lose $50K in markers and then win $50K at another casino, come in and deposit $50K cash at the cage. Now you'd think, okay my line is clear. Now you have $50K in markers outstanding, $50K cash on deposit, and $100K available again.

However, in this instance, the casino doesn't like to give you your markers back yet, they prefer to just keep things running until the end of the trip, and settle everything then. Just the way they work.

This creates a somewhat odd situation where if you are playing at a table and lose, and want to pay off your markers with cash, the easiest way to do it, notwithstanding that it takes forever for the dealers to count it, is to pay cash at the tables. If you deposit the cash at the cage, the cage tends to want to hold both your cash – and your markers, until trip’s end.

To me, as a credit line player, getting into a situation where the casino has both your cash and your markers, doesn’t make sense to me, so in situations where I have lost at one casino, and won at the other, I either get a check from the winning casino, deposit it, get my own cashier’s check and then pay off the losing casino, or just get cash from the winning casino and give the cash at the tables of the losing casino and have them count it against my markers and give me back my markers then and there.


3) Casino acceptance of checks or bank wires

Another rule with reference to casinos is what form of checks, cashier’s checks or bank wires they will accept. Due to Compliance rules which essentially come down to anti-money laundering, casinos will accept only checks or cashier’s checks that are made out from the player himself. Banks will not issue cashier’s checks without putting down the name of the remitter, and for a casino to accept that cashier's check that remitter name must match the name of the player at the casino. Similarly incoming bank wires will be rejected unless they show as coming from the player.

In some circumstances, where the remitter of a cashier’s check or bank wire is an entity that the casino has verified as being 100% solely owned by the individual player, the casino will accept payment from that source as well.


In general these rules come down to that casinos are working hard to prevent cash from being converted to any other form of funds other than cash, and to prevent transfers of funds between individuals.

Cash in, cash out.

Check or wire in, check or wire out.

Checks only for winnings or return of check or bank wire front money.

Funds other than cash accepted only from the individual player or his solely owned entity.

And basically, no funds of any substantial amount (over $10,000 USD) accepted or credit issued until full identification of the player including, especially for U.S. players, tax identification numbers.


There is a whole related topic about when and where casinos will report cash transactions, but these reporting requirements are for CASH only – they do not apply to incoming or outgoing checks or bank wires.
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Anyone who says he can or did get a cage check from a casino without winning has possibly not been inside a casino and tried to get check for unplayed cash in...mmm...I'd say over 20 years.

Not being up to speed on this subject would go hand in hand with thinking a seven figure table game winner would walk out the door with all cash, asking to see the CTR and not seeming to understand how CTRs work, too.

Quote: MDawg

Anyone who says he can or did get a cage check from a casino without winning has possibly not been inside a casino and tried to get check for unplayed cash in...mmm...I'd say over 20 years.

I disagree. You are assuming that all casino employees know the rules and follow them.

I am also pretty sure I could bribe a cage employee to break the rules. A $100,000 bribe goes a long way with someone making $18 an hour.

At the cage, they do all know the rules and they do all follow them, as far as the Casino Compliance rules, especially these days.

Over twenty years ago, I was trying to get a check out of one cage employee at a time when I didn't even know what the rules were (but the employee did). I had cashed twenty grand worth of chips and decided to deposit the cash at the cage. Later, I won around ten grand and I was trying to get a check for the entire $30K. My argument was - look, I won $30K, so give me a check for $30K, but the cage kept saying that you gave us $20K cash, you get back $20K cash and a check for $10K. No amount of argument to the effect of "Those were your chips, all I did was cash them and hand you the money from them" would persuade them. Finally the employee told me that would lose job if gave me the $30K check, basically meaning - it's not happening! So I had to walk with $20K cash and a $10K, and the employee was even trying to tell me that was handing me back the exact same $20K bundle that I had put on deposit, which when I looked at it, it did look like my two bundles.

More recently, things that have happened include an occasion when I deposited fifty or so grand worth of chips from another casino to add to my credit line. Of course the receiving casino first verified that I was clear and owed nothing at the casino from which I was bringing the chips, and that the chips belonged to me (were recorded as my having won them). After all that, later I tried to get a check from the receiving casino for that $50K plus what I had now won at that casino, for a total of something like $125K. The receiving casino said they could issue a check only for the $75K I had won there. After much back and forth they just gave me back the chips I had given them from the other casino - they actually still had the exact same chips on deposit - so I took them back to the first casino to get a check. They refused and finally gave me cash only.

But these are your chips! I kept saying. I won them here! you have a record of the win.

We don't know what you did with them after we allowed them to be transferred to the other property, was their final position.

They are that strict these days. That strict.


As far as conspiring to circumvent the law and rules, that sort of possibility actually proves the point of that the casino employees know what they may and may not do. Which really, they do.

Quote: MDawg

At the cage, they do all know the rules and they do all follow them, as far as the Casino Compliance rules, especially these days.

Maybe at specific casinos but I guarantee there are casinos that do not.

That sort of not following the rules surrounding money laundering and Casino Compliance ended years ago. These days they are even afraid to accept a payment for a marker unless the payment comes from you, or some entity that their Compliance Department has okayed as 100% belonging to you,

and even then, some casinos won't accept ANY payment unless it is verifiably from you, and only you, individually. So if someone tries to pay with a company check, the answer is...NO.

Who turns down a payment to pay a marker? Unless Compliance Rules overpower even their eagerness to get paid.

Lot of big tournaments and drawings coming up!

Quote: TigerWu

I mean, it's gotta be what, USPC, Paulson, or Gemaco?
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The Golden Nugget incident was with Gemaco cards.

Source: Unshuffled cards game at Golden Nugget ruled legal

Quote: Wizard

Quote: TigerWu

I mean, it's gotta be what, USPC, Paulson, or Gemaco?
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The Golden Nugget incident was with Gemaco cards.

Source: Unshuffled cards game at Golden Nugget ruled legal
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That letter by the DGE calling the play of that game legal and the subsequent case of Phil Ivey point out that AP is seen as perfectly legal by the gaming commission (even AP both premeditated and determined on the spot)...

However that AP while also seen to be legal by the court is something judges can't abide and will force an AP to pay back.

Law enforcement for some reason can't understand the concept of advantage play as a means to make income. They believe casinos as businesses are sacrosanct.

It's one of the reasons I declined to involve authorities when my house was burglarized of casino cards. You are more likely to lose money with the cops and courts than the actual thieves.

Look I just wanna new watch. In fact there's a store with that name in L.A.

As far as your declining to file a police report that's because you live in a glass house. If anyone tries to take one of my watches with say a gun I'll just hand it to him, but will scour the earth to find him afterwards and bring him to justice, no matter what it costs me. Because I'm legitimate. And don't like thieves. I got trackers on all my watches and jewelry when I am traveling with them.

Quote: MDawg

As far as your declining to file a police report that's because you live in a glass house. If anyone tries to take one of my watches with say a gun I'll just hand it to him, but will scour the earth to find him afterwards and bring him to justice, no matter what it costs me. Because I'm legitimate. And don't like thieves. I got trackers on all my watches and jewelry when I am traveling with them.
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You also report in fake time for security purposes because of your safety. So if it was the cops who might get you robbed you too would be hesitant to report anything.

And yes the cops can do highway robbery. They call it civil forfeiture.

I request discussion of laundering cash to checks at table games be moved here. Thank you.

Unless a person has some advantage, everyone who plays Baccarat no matter how he plays (as long as stay away from the side bets), experiences the same house edge 1.06 - 1.24%.

Blackjack with a perfect game basic strategy no counting the house edge might be 0.27 but when I have played even high limit let alone out in the lower limit tables I rarely see anyone who plays perfect basic strategy. So, if these average Blackjack players - and most of them are average - are making the house edge as high as say 2% ? 3% ? then the house hold on Blackjack should be a lot higher than Baccarat.

Is it?

There is at least one casino I know of that will give 35% of Theo Loss in play till you lose promo chips. And that's not just for special limits players, it's for any decent player.

If you play a 0.27% HA game and expect to get 35% of that back in comps, that'd be about 0.1% or $1K for every $1 million thought to be bet. You'd be down about $2.7K in EV at that point, so the refund just lowers the EV to -$1.7K. Obviously if betting $375/hand, the EV would be $1 a hand; if betting $1,075/hand the comp will be $1/hand.

A lot of casinos give 35% of theo loss as comps, but if you may get that as essentially cash (promo chips) you may spend it directly at the tables. Just depends on what you're looking for, and if you don't need the comps then might as well get it as promo chips.

Quote: MDawg

Unless a person has some advantage, everyone who plays Baccarat no matter how he plays (as long as stay away from the side bets), experiences the same house edge 1.06 - 1.24%.

Blackjack with a perfect game basic strategy no counting the house edge might be 0.27 but when I have played even high limit let alone out in the lower limit tables I rarely see anyone who plays perfect basic strategy. So, if these average Blackjack players - and most of them are average - are making the house edge as high as say 2% ? 3% ? then the house hold on Blackjack should be a lot higher than Baccarat.

Is it?
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Are you talking about in dollar amounts? I'm pretty sure the hold on baccarat is way higher despite the lower house edge just because of the amount of money that high rollers and whales bet.

I mean percentage wise.

Quote: MDawg

Unless a person has some advantage, everyone who plays Baccarat no matter how he plays (as long as stay away from the side bets), experiences the same house edge 1.06 - 1.24%.

Blackjack with a perfect game basic strategy no counting the house edge might be 0.27 but when I have played even high limit let alone out in the lower limit tables I rarely see anyone who plays perfect basic strategy. So, if these average Blackjack players - and most of them are average - are making the house edge as high as say 2% ? 3% ? then the house hold on Blackjack should be a lot higher than Baccarat.

Is it?
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You are correct. The typical BJ player is playing 1% to 2% below optimal.

I imagine some are playing even worse.

Note: Lately, for security reasons, session reports are not necessarily presented in real time corresponding directly to the day played.

Quote: MDawg

Note: Lately, for security reasons, session reports are not necessarily presented in real time corresponding directly to the day played.
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Nice picture. What's it mean?

tuttigym

Free entry tournament for high rollers. Didn't have to play as high as I do to get in, but high.

After all this tragedy in Maui, I am reading something of which I wasn't really aware - that Hawaiian residents especially Native Hawaiians as suggesting that tourists stay away from Hawaii period, and that current non-residents stop buying property in Hawaii.

Tourists degrade the natural beauty of Hawaii. Just look at all those low lifes who went up to Tahoe, where we own a home, and left trash all over the place even defecating all over the beaches and trails, during Covid.

I understand the point. Just as in Mexico they don't allow non-Mexican citizens to purchase property along the coast (may be long term leased, not owned), the natives don't want us Haoles to snap up all the best land. This is part of why the Bishop Estate, devoted to providing a world class education to children of native Hawaiian descent, owns so much of the coastal land especially on the Big Island, and will never sell it, only lease.

And in fact my family owns an oceanfront estate in Hawaii since many years ago, which I suppose flies in the face of what the Hawaiian residents want to happen.

But, how far do you take this "Locals only!" argument. Doesn't Hawaii make a lot of money off tourism? And our main home is in southern California, lots of tourists here no one is saying we don't want the tourists here? What's the difference. Tourists are often going to treat wherever they visit like a rental car, just goes with the territory. Next thing you know locals will be advocating for no tourism at all?

The rains have started in southern Cal, but nothing heavy yet.

Locals only!

Heavier rains, intermittent gusty winds.

D.Oz since it appears that you stick more money in slot machines than anyone else around here....

I sit in front of a slot machine. I have $50,000. cash.

1)
I play with a Player's Card all the way through. Let's assume they have my SSN on record and I am fully identity verified.

Will the machine allow me to keep feeding those C notes into the machine? Will it stop me at some point or will someone come out of the woodwork to talk to me? Why?

2)
I play with no Player's Card inserted.

Will the system allow me to keep feeding all that cash into the machine? or will it stop me at some point. You said something about a $3000. threshold.

If it does stop me or someone comes out of the woodwork, why would that happen? and what would be asked of me.

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz since it appears that you stick more money in slot machines than anyone else around here....

I sit in front of a slot machine. I have $50,000. cash.

1)
I play with a Player's Card all the way through. Let's assume they have my SSN on record and I am fully identity verified.

Will the machine allow me to keep feeding those C notes into the machine? Will it stop me at some point or will someone come out of the woodwork to talk to me? Why?

2)
I play with no Player's Card inserted.

Will the system allow me to keep feeding all that cash into the machine? or will it stop me at some point. You said something about a $3000. threshold.

If it does stop me or someone comes out of the woodwork, why would that happen? and what would be asked of me.
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I do not know of a single slot machine where the player has any affect on whether it will continue taking bills or not. Every one that I am familiar with has a setting at the machine itself that will reject bills once the credit meter reaches the setting amount. At typical casinos at typical machines that seemed to usually be set from $3000 to $5000. I would guess it is higher at higher denom machines.

What happens at that point? The player has to move to a different machine?

Quote: MDawg

What happens at that point? The player has to move to a different machine?

No, hit the cashout button and collect the TITO and start again on the same machine.

Well what about after the same machine has had more than 10K cash fed into it?

What about when the guy goes to try to cash out over 10K in TITOs, he's not asked to identify himself?

Quote: MDawg

Well what about after the same machine has had more than 10K cash fed into it?

What about when the guy goes to try to cash out over 10K in TITOs, he's not asked to identify himself?
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The machine does not care how much was put in. Of course a CTR should be filed if they try to cash out over $10k. If the player was playing carded a CTR should be filed just for putting in over $10k. The casinos in which I was in charge of compliance would run a report every 24 hours and fill out CTR's for anyone that put in over $10k in cash in the 24 hour period no matter how any different machines they played..

Quote: DRich

The casinos in which I was in charge of compliance would run a report every 24 hours and fill out CTR's for anyone that put in over $10k in cash in the 24 hour period no matter how any different machines they played..
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That's what I figured, that whether the slots player is aware or not, if he managed to get over 10K cash into a machine that a CTR is going to be filed against him.

I assume that even if he plays unrated, that when he goes to cash out they'll ask for identification if he is cashing out a lot, and then match that identity with all his input of cash play. Or maybe the system has already been alerted that such and such TITOs belong to a player who has input a lot of cash, and they will ask for ID even if the tickets are split among different people. Tracking play at that level isn't as hard as people might think.

And if something obvious is going on to trying to divide up the cash play among different players to try to avoid coming under CTR scrutiny, then maybe even a SAR or two (or three, one for each participant) will be filed.

This also blows D.Oz's money laundering idea that he would just put $50K cash into a machine until he got enough hand pay win checks, because if a CTR is filed for the incoming cash, then the government is already alerted to cash going in, including to the fact that the cash was not recorded as going back out.

Quote: MDawg

I am not sure what you are getting at, but the object of money laundering is to convert the cash to non-cash. Without reporting along the way.

Again, I don't know what comes out at the other end of your slot machine example, but if you feed $50K cash into a machine I'd think that there will be some cash reporting done, win or lose, just for the entry alone? If you are sitting at the tables and keep buying in, and they won't even let you get to the point of $10K unless you're fully identified, once your buy in passes $10K cash a CTR will be filed on you.

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Quote: MDawg

Well what about after the same machine has had more than 10K cash fed into it?

What about when the guy goes to try to cash out over 10K in TITOs, he's not asked to identify himself?
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okay stop. You are asking questions with simple answers but which show you really have no idea about slots. forget what you know about table games. different rules.

for example. the most you can stick into a slot is $3000(everywhere I play and this includes hi denom games so wagering $200 a spin you would only have enough for 15 spins because only $3000 can be put in at once.)

if put the money into the slot and then cash the tito out you can just go the REDEMPTION MACHINE and it gets turned back into cash. If you loaded $12,000 ($3000 at a time) and cashed out titos and went to the redemption machine with four $3000 vouchers you would just insert them and get your money back.

over $3000 (lets say you took a spin and won some money) have to go to cashier.

In NY, Racinos have anti-money laundering software that if you put $600 in the slot and cash out without any significant play then the voucher can only be cashed at a cashier and they will call the cops and you will have to explain yourselft to them.. It happened to me with $700 which I cashed out because the machine buttons were sticky and I couldnt get them to work aside from the cashout. The officer was actually annoyed he had to respond to what he said was a ridiculous amount of money to report. He okayed the cashier and I got my money back. It's stupid if you ask me but that's the only place I have ever seen that. Most casinos you just cash out. It's your money and cashing it doesn't prove anything.

So bottom line, cashing out titos doesn't even involve a live person most of the time.

you also asked if putting XXX cash into a machine would cause someone to come over. My experience is not for putting money into the machine. thats never happened. I have had a host come over when making large wagers for over a length of time. This is so they can introduce themselves and yes, it's happened to me even with a female card in the machine. They never question it. After all, I am spending money. Why would they want to piss off a paying customer. AND there are enough men who have female names. In Haiti, for example, Wendy is a male name. John Wayne's real name was Marion. And Leslie Nielson would have been very insulted if you assumed he must be a woman. So hosts just shake your hand, Hosts coming over has never been a problem. I should mention however that I can list the number of casinos where hosts come over on one hand. Geerally, you play and no one bothers you. Period.

You cash out and no one bothers you period!

No one even follows your action (in general) period. Not hosts. not surveillance, not security.

I have cashed out over thirty thousand dollars at redemption machines in just one afternoon at the same casino. I wouldn't do it all at once. Just walk around and cash out four or five grand at a time. But that's just an abundance of caution on my part.