Wellbush

Asians view the game of Baccarat very superstitiously. They believe that if you are winning at it, it means that you are favored, by luck, by God, by whatever forces in which you believe. This superstition extends to that if someone bets against them they think this somehow detracts from their ability to win the hand.

So, while it may well be nothing more than gambling addiction (which runs the gamut through all of humanity not just through one race), yes, even Asians themselves will comment to me at the tables something like, "If you go to a casino - most of the people you see there are Asians!"

But I've known women who have declared that, "I'm _____ so I have to gamble." Fill in the blank, I've heard almost any race you could imagine filled into that space.

And while yes, at casinos like Venetian and Wynn you will see a lot of Asians, you will also see a lot of plain ol' non-Asian Americans, too. And for example at the old Hard Rock Vegas, which was packed in its heyday with gamblers - nary an Asian in sight.

So while yes, maybe at certain casinos and maybe even in casinos in general there are a lot of Asians, I see a lot of people of all races gambling their arses off in casinos....

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: sabre

A little casual racism and misogyny on a Monday morning.

link to original post

these are serious insults

link to original post

Speaks to his opinion of the post, not of you personally. Keep trying.

link to original post

I tend to agree.

link to original post

i don't. i was just stating facts, and musing on those facts. sabre was speaking to what he thought were my opinions.

link to original post

Yes, we post opinions, sometimes. I'm pretty sure that's what posting is. He may or may not have inferred, from your post, that you personally hold a particular opinion, but he didn't say that. He spoke to the post.

It would be like if I posted and made something that someone perceived as a math error. Someone could say, "I think your process is a little off, Mission," which doesn't mean that this theoretical person is saying I suck at math.

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: billryan

"mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling."



Maybe it's a cultural thing, but these are not facts.

link to original post

they are when i go. how are they not?

link to original post

Start with by using the words, "I think," in your post, you're already stipulating that the statement might not be a fact.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: billryan

"mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling."



Maybe it's a cultural thing, but these are not facts.

link to original post

they are when i go. how are they not?

link to original post

Start with by using the words, "I think," in your post, you're already stipulating that the statement might not be a fact.

link to original post

i'm not going to enter into some long whining episode. i'll just state that i think you're twisting things in sabre's favour when he was clearly out of line. and is it the first time?

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: billryan

"mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling."



Maybe it's a cultural thing, but these are not facts.

link to original post

they are when i go. how are they not?

link to original post

Start with by using the words, "I think," in your post, you're already stipulating that the statement might not be a fact.

link to original post

i'm not going to enter into some long whining episode. i'll just state that i think you're twisting things in sabre's favour when he was clearly out of line. and is it the first time?

link to original post

An Administrator has spoken and he seems to agree with my position. Who's whining? Did I complain about anybody's post?

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: billryan

"mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling."



Maybe it's a cultural thing, but these are not facts.

link to original post

they are when i go. how are they not?

link to original post

Start with by using the words, "I think," in your post, you're already stipulating that the statement might not be a fact.

link to original post

i'm not going to enter into some long whining episode. i'll just state that i think you're twisting things in sabre's favour when he was clearly out of line. and is it the first time?

link to original post

You state- "I could be wrong but I think most of them are addicted"

There is nothing factual in this statement, and many would find it offensive.

Do you refer to your wife or daughter as " birds"? Do you call your female friends "birds" to their face? Would you object if another player at the table referred to your wife as a "bird"?

I used to stay a lot at Caesar's Tahoe before it became MontBleu. I guess Bob Newhart was some kind of spokesman for them because when you turned the TV on some video would appear constantly, of Bob in the casino, talking about why he loves casinos so much. He'd say that he liked to watch people in casinos, because their true character would come out, often in a funny and entertaining way, such as the little old lady who finally hits a slot jackpot and comes unglued with excitement, or the same little old lady who becomes territorial about her slot machine and tells you to back off away from it.

I feel the same way, I like to watch people in casinos and the way they act, at least, when they are winning. It's depressing to watch people lose, but even at those times, it's cathartically interesting in a sort of ascetically purging way. Now, I don't like these people - or any people - at my tables, but I don't mind watching them here and there. And, as far as people watching, go to Cosmopolitan, Wynn/Encore (especially on weekends), or Venetian/Palazzo and you'll see a number of very watch worthy scantily dressed girls walk on by, such that you really have to control yourself to avoid walking up and saying HI!

Quote: billryan

Do you refer to your wife or daughter as " birds"? Do you call your female friends "birds" to their face? Would you object if another player at the table referred to your wife as a "bird"?

link to original post

i think you and others are putting out opinions about me, that are projections. you cannot assume things from what i'm posting. ask, if you want to know what i think. i don't have anything against women or asians. i don't have a problem calling a woman a bird, but it seems you do. and seriously, why are these posts about me and not about the topics i'm posting about?

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: billryan

Do you refer to your wife or daughter as " birds"? Do you call your female friends "birds" to their face? Would you object if another player at the table referred to your wife as a "bird"?

link to original post

i think you and others are putting out opinions about me, that are projections. you cannot assume things from what i'm posting. ask, if you want to know what i think. i don't have anything against women or asians. i don't have a problem calling a woman a bird, but it seems you do. and seriously, why are these posts about me and not about the topics i'm posting about?

link to original post

I tend to interpret question marks as meaning that someone isn't making an assumption, or expressing an opinion, but is rather asking a question. I think direct assumptions expressed and opinions stated would typically be followed by a different punctuation mark, but I could be wrong.

I do find it amusing that you told BillRyan he should, "Ask," while quoting a post that contained only questions.

Here's a question: Is it possible that you are reading too much into the questions contained in the post you quoted? That's a question.

"Bird" is a little dismissive, and perhaps dated (from as far back as 1915, but exploded into use in the 1960s) but I think it's a cultural thing, and a Brit or Aussie might refer to his girlfriend as a "top bird" without intending offense.

Quote: MDawg

And, as far as people watching, go to Cosmopolitan, Wynn/Encore (especially on weekends), or Venetian/Palazzo and you'll see a number of very watch worthy scantily dressed girls walk on by, such that you really have to control yourself to avoid walking up and saying HI!

link to original post

😃hilarious

Quote: MDawg

"Bird" is a little dismissive, and perhaps dated (from as far back as 1915, but exploded into use in the 1960s) but I think it's a cultural thing, and a Brit or Aussie might refer to his girlfriend as a "top bird" without intending offense.

link to original post

I have no doubt some Brits refer to their girls as birds, but I doubt they do it to their face. I've never had an Australian friend. Had a friend, and a family unit that moved there but they never came back.

Quote: MDawg

"Bird" is a little dismissive, and perhaps dated (from as far back as 1915, but exploded into use in the 1960s) but I think it's a cultural thing, and a Brit or Aussie might refer to his girlfriend as a "top bird" without intending offense.

link to original post

I suppose the, 'Problem,' such as one may or may not exist, with expressions such as these is that there are those who perceive them as automatically offensive.

After that, you get into the whole question of whether it is how a word is taken or the intent of the speaker that matters.

I tend to think that speakers very rarely have nefarious intent, even less so in the context of casual conversation, but then the other side may argue that the problem is that the terms are both dismissive AND used casually.

I don't have a, 'Side,' on this particular issue. My tendency is just to think people speak how they speak and another person can associate with the speaker, or not, accordingly. Semi-forced (think workplace) association is a bit different, but for a setting such as this, I don't see it as much of a problem. If you don't like a word someone uses, then just don't talk to that person, or block them, whichever. I don't think there's any absolute protection from ALL words that one may find objectionable, even on a tightly moderated forum.

Quote: Mission146

I suppose the, 'Problem,' such as one may or may not exist, with expressions such as these is that there are those who perceive them as automatically offensive.

After that, you get into the whole question of whether it is how a word is taken or the intent of the speaker that matters.

I tend to think that speakers very rarely have nefarious intent, even less so in the context of casual conversation, but then the other side may argue that the problem is that the terms are both dismissive AND used casually.

I don't have a, 'Side,' on this particular issue. My tendency is just to think people speak how they speak and another person can associate with the speaker, or not, accordingly. Semi-forced (think workplace) association is a bit different, but for a setting such as this, I don't see it as much of a problem. If you don't like a word someone uses, then just don't talk to that person, or block them, whichever. I don't think there's any absolute protection from ALL words that one may find objectionable, even on a tightly moderated forum.

link to original post

well i finally agree with you here, 146.

Quote: Dieter

I tend to agree.

link to original post

btw dieter, i think i should have started this thread as a blog. it's probably worth considering moving it there, as this essentially is a blog.

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Dieter

I tend to agree.

link to original post

btw dieter, i think i should have started this thread as a blog. it's probably worth considering moving it there, as this essentially is a blog.

link to original post

We are not able to move forum posts to the blog side, as far as I know.

I think it would be OK to copy and paste, should you care to maintain narrative coherence.

As the thread has otherwise gone to the birds, I'm going to push the closed button for now.

I have heard it said that poker games in Macau are different than in the U.S. because many Asian poker players "like to gamble." I don't consider that as a racist statement, it's a statement about observed culture that is relevant to achieving higher performance in a Macau poker game.

I know that many young professional poker players like to play aggressively against opponents who are over 50 years old, re-raising their pre-flop raises and betting aggressively on the post-flop and turn, because they feel that older people are risk-averse and are more likely to fold a good hand. I don't think that statement is age-ism, and if you're over 50 and are unaware of how younger pros play against older amateurs than you are going to lose more money than you should.

I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

Quote: Wellbush

i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling.

link to original post

Quote: gordonm888

I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

link to original post

I would have expected more from an Administrator of a forum that is supposed to espouse the values of math and logic.

Making judgments on people solely based on their ethnic or gender identity is the definition of racism and sexism. The judgment criteria does not even need to be negative. You can say "Asians are very good at math, so that's why they win at casinos", and that would be a racist statement. By doing so, you would have taken away someone's humanity, and reduced them to a basic stereotype. Asians are no longer human beings with individual agency, but merely expressions of their assigned social group.

Such a statement would also reveal an incredible degree of laziness and/or ignorance. People of Asian descent make up around 60% of the world's population, and are made up of groups with cultures that are as diverse as those in any other continent in the world. Yet, in this thread, certain qualities are imbued onto all Asians based on a few casual observations of a few individuals in casinos in Perth, Las Vegas, and Macau. Asians in Perth (and Australia in general) are comprised of mainly of Chinese immigrants who arrived during the gold rush of the 1850-60's, Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees from the 1970's, working class and professional migrants from the Philippines and India since the 1970's, middle class economic migrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan from the 1980-90's, and middle class economic and educational migrants from mainland China since 2000. Which of these specific groups whose women does Wellbush believe are addicted to gambling? Is gambling in the culture of all of these groups, or just some?

Macau is the only place in China where gambling is legal, and its visitors are mainly middle class and upper class individuals from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese players in the high stakes poker games in Macau are tremendously wealthy, or are offspring of the tremendously wealthy. The cutthroat capitalism in China of the past 30+ years have created a class of the ultra-rich. The ones who survived did so because of their ruthless nature and psychopathic obsession to win. Money means nothing to those people, except as a means to keep score. Does the top 0.1% of Chinese society reflect the values of all Chinese, and all Asian poker players? Your statement seems to think so.

Macau received nearly 28 million visitors from mainland China in 2019. China's population was 1.433 billion in 2019. What cultural observations did you make on the 1.405 billion Chinese people who did not visit Macau in 2019? Do you think that all of those people also like to be loose and splashy at a poker table, except that they just gamble illegally outside of Macau, because they can't afford to or don't want to go through the hassle of getting a permit to visit Macau? This is such an easy case of selection bias to spot; yet multiple people in this thread seem to be falling for it.

Finally, your comparison of a poker pro using heuristics to categorize opponents is not even valid. Poker is game of imperfect information, but within a few rounds, it is possible to make highly accurate observations on an opponent's play style, especially when the opponent is veering widely from optimal play. The observations don't even need to be that precise. If you think that someone's range is not well constructed, and they are folding just 3% too much, a solver will tell you to bluff everything, because every bluff is now profitable. Likewise, if someone is calling just 3% too much, then a solver will tell you to never bluff, widen your value range, and size up your value bets. Maximally exploiting your opponent's weaknesses is simply the optimal strategy.

At a poker table, everyone agrees to the rules of the game when they sit down. Your have an adversarial relationship with your opponents, and it is fine to use heuristics to maximize profits. When you are just walking past someone on the street, they're not asking to be judged.

Great thread, non fiction and reality Wellbush!

Keep it going!

Marcus Clark.

Quote: gordonm888

I have heard it said that poker games in Macau are different than in the U.S. because many Asian poker players "like to gamble." I don't consider that as a racist statement, it's a statement about observed culture that is relevant to achieving higher performance in a Macau poker game.

I know that many young professional poker players like to play aggressively against opponents who are over 50 years old, re-raising their pre-flop raises and betting aggressively on the post-flop and turn, because they feel that older people are risk-averse and are more likely to fold a good hand. I don't think that statement is age-ism, and if you're over 50 and are unaware of how younger pros play against older amateurs than you are going to lose more money than you should.

I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

link to original post

I think there is a huge jump from -I think people like to gamble to saying you think they are addicted. He isn't suggesting an individual might be addicted, he thinks most Asian women are addicts.

"...i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted."

Quote: billryan

I think there is a huge jump from -I think people like to gamble to saying you think they are addicted. He isn't suggesting an individual might be addicted, he thinks most Asian women are addicts.

"...i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted."

link to original post

As a gambling table typically seats no more than 12, I read "most of them" to refer to more than half of the Asian women Wellbush has observed playing table games, and not a generalization of the worldwide population of Asian women (which would be more than a billion individuals).

Quote: kalc

Quote: Wellbush

i did notice something that has shown itself the few times i've been to casinos...Asians. mainly Asian women. they come and they play at table games, and they got money! i could be wrong but i think most of them are addicted.

obviously for Asian women, it's a cultural thing...gambling.

link to original post

Quote: gordonm888

I don't think that Wellbush's comments about the cohort of Asian women gamblers that he studied/saw playing at his casino are either racist or misogynist: he is simply reporting what he sees.

link to original post

I would have expected more from an Administrator of a forum that is supposed to espouse the values of math and logic.

Making judgments on people solely based on their ethnic or gender identity is the definition of racism and sexism. The judgment criteria does not even need to be negative. You can say "Asians are very good at math, so that's why they win at casinos", and that would be a racist statement. By doing so, you would have taken away someone's humanity, and reduced them to a basic stereotype. Asians are no longer human beings with individual agency, but merely expressions of their assigned social group.

Such a statement would also reveal an incredible degree of laziness and/or ignorance. People of Asian descent make up around 60% of the world's population, and are made up of groups with cultures that are as diverse as those in any other continent in the world. Yet, in this thread, certain qualities are imbued onto all Asians based on a few casual observations of a few individuals in casinos in Perth, Las Vegas, and Macau. Asians in Perth (and Australia in general) are comprised of mainly of Chinese immigrants who arrived during the gold rush of the 1850-60's, Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees from the 1970's, working class and professional migrants from the Philippines and India since the 1970's, middle class economic migrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan from the 1980-90's, and middle class economic and educational migrants from mainland China since 2000. Which of these specific groups whose women does Wellbush believe are addicted to gambling? Is gambling in the culture of all of these groups, or just some?

Macau is the only place in China where gambling is legal, and its visitors are mainly middle class and upper class individuals from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese players in the high stakes poker games in Macau are tremendously wealthy, or are offspring of the tremendously wealthy. The cutthroat capitalism in China of the past 30+ years have created a class of the ultra-rich. The ones who survived did so because of their ruthless nature and psychopathic obsession to win. Money means nothing to those people, except as a means to keep score. Does the top 0.1% of Chinese society reflect the values of all Chinese, and all Asian poker players? Your statement seems to think so.

Macau received nearly 28 million visitors from mainland China in 2019. China's population was 1.433 billion in 2019. What cultural observations did you make on the 1.405 billion Chinese people who did not visit Macau in 2019? Do you think that all of those people also like to be loose and splashy at a poker table, except that they just gamble illegally outside of Macau, because they can't afford to or don't want to go through the hassle of getting a permit to visit Macau? This is such an easy case of selection bias to spot; yet multiple people in this thread seem to be falling for it.

Finally, your comparison of a poker pro using heuristics to categorize opponents is not even valid. Poker is game of imperfect information, but within a few rounds, it is possible to make highly accurate observations on an opponent's play style, especially when the opponent is veering widely from optimal play. The observations don't even need to be that precise. If you think that someone's range is not well constructed, and they are folding just 3% too much, a solver will tell you to bluff everything, because every bluff is now profitable. Likewise, if someone is calling just 3% too much, then a solver will tell you to never bluff, widen your value range, and size up your value bets. Maximally exploiting your opponent's weaknesses is simply the optimal strategy.

At a poker table, everyone agrees to the rules of the game when they sit down. Your have an adversarial relationship with your opponents, and it is fine to use heuristics to maximize profits. When you are just walking past someone on the street, they're not asking to be judged.

link to original post

Can you tell me if you define these statements as racist?

A black man is 100 times as likely to be an NFL cornerback as a white man.

An Asian American is 10 times as likely to score over 1400 on her SAT’s than an African American.

In Chicago, you are 8 times as likely to be killed by someone of your own race if you are African American.

I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.

link to original post

Exactly, SOOPOO and axel. I was clearly talking about a certain % of Asian women I see at casinos, not Asian women in general. It might say something about the posters who've reacted the way they have, though?

My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?

Quote: Wellbush

My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?

link to original post

Taunting is just a half step from trolling, Wellbush.
You did open the door to have your intent questioned when you made a comment that mentioned race.

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: AxelWolf

I have known a fair amount of Asia women gamblers and I'm sorry to say, a very high percentage of them seem to be problem gamblers.

link to original post

Exactly, SOOPOO and axel. I was clearly talking about a certain % of Asian women I see at casinos, not Asian women in general. It might say something about the posters who've reacted the way they have, though?

My ex-wife is Vietnamese who would never go near a casino. I had an ex Vietnamese girlfriend, the same. My 3 kids are half Vietnamese and half caucasian Australian. My current gf is a Filipina. And, it would be no surprise that I love Asian women.

Now, can those who immediately jump up and point the finger, twisting and projection all of the universe from anything remotely said about a race, now stand up and think they're right?

link to original post

Either way, it's still somewhat insulting to say those things, even what I said. What you said was a bit over the top. 🤷‍♂️ it's when someone doesn't know that or understand how it could be offensive... that's the problem. Defending yourself is just making it worse. A simple explanation that you used bad judgment when posting that stuff may have sufficed. Or just say you don't care. Claiming it's ok or trying to say it's no big deal isn't going to work out well.

I suspect no one was truly offended, It was more about the fact that some people don't like or respect you, therefore, why not call you out. But who knows?

Quote: AxelWolf

Either way, it's still somewhat insulting to say those things, even what I said. What you said was a bit over the top. 🤷‍♂️ it's when someone doesn't know that or understand how it could be offensive... that's the problem. Defending yourself is just making it worse. A simple explanation that you used bad judgment when posting that stuff may have sufficed. Or just say you don't care. Claiming it's ok or trying to say it's no big deal isn't going to work out well.

I suspect no one was truly offended, It was more about the fact that some people don't like or respect you, therefore, why not call you out. But who knows?

link to original post

Considering he got banned for Trolling, an insult or Hate Speech less than three weeks ago (the Admin couldn't decide which) might also have an impact on how people might perceive his statements. That said, I didn't see anything specifically wrong with his comments most recently. I do think it's funny that someone perceived them as possibloy being racist and misogynistic (referring to the post, not to Wellbush) and Wellbush wanted that person banned for Personal Insult.

How about everyone just drop it?

Quote: Dieter

Taunting is just a half step from trolling, Wellbush.
You did open the door to have your intent questioned when you made a comment that mentioned race.

link to original post

I wasn't taunting. I was just describing the situation. I have no control over how various posters may react to what I experienced. And as far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to apologise for or back down from.

I also object to 146 bringing up that I have a record for this sort of thing, whatever this sort of thing is? There's a difference between deliberately stirring up trouble, and trouble being stirred up by people's reactions to what someone posts.

Asians gamble, so what? So do whites, blacks, Latinos and Europeans, etc. I highly doubt that the majority of all Asians do gamble, really doubt that one.

All kinds of people from every nationality engage in addictive behavior with various vices of all kinds.

Funny how Asians usually do get 'singled out' at most casinos for being part of a majority that in numbers would surpass all other racial groups, etc.

IMO it makes for spicy talk that allows the perpetrator to appear educated on the subject, LOL.

Deleted

Quote: Marcusclark66

Asians gamble, so what? So do whites, blacks, Latinos and Europeans, etc. I highly doubt that the majority of all Asians do gamble, really doubt that one.

All kinds of people from every nationality engage in addictive behavior with various vices of all kinds.

Funny how Asians usually do get 'singled out' at most casinos for being part of a majority that in numbers would surpass all other racial groups, etc.

IMO it makes for spicy talk that allows the perpetrator to appear educated on the subject, LOL.

link to original post

That's a view you're entitled to have if you wish Marcus. My experience at the Crown Casino in Perth, Western Australia, was what I described. A seeming excess number of Asian women compared to other races of women at the tables gambling. How people react racially to that last sentence has got nothing to do with my non-racial views.

Meant collectively, not independently.

Quote: Wellbush

no nonfiction here Marcus

Ah ha, so you now admit it is fiction, aka made up, aka a lie?

I guess a confession clears the conscience.

Quote: MrV

Ah ha, so you now admit it is fiction, aka made up, aka a lie?

I guess a confession clears the conscience.

link to original post

Ah ha! My error. No fiction here is what I meant. You nearly had me there MV

Quote: Marcusclark66

Asians gamble, so what? So do whites, blacks, Latinos and Europeans, etc. I highly doubt that the majority of all Asians do gamble, really doubt that one.

All kinds of people from every nationality engage in addictive behavior with various vices of all kinds.

Funny how Asians usually do get 'singled out' at most casinos for being part of a majority that in numbers would surpass all other racial groups, etc.

IMO it makes for spicy talk that allows the perpetrator to appear educated on the subject, LOL.

link to original post

I think there's only a minority of Asians who gamble, but maybe there's a larger minority than other races? I'm not sure. Is that your experience Marcus?

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Dieter

Taunting is just a half step from trolling, Wellbush.
You did open the door to have your intent questioned when you made a comment that mentioned race.

link to original post

I wasn't taunting. I was just describing the situation. I have no control over how various posters may react to what I experienced. And as far as I'm concerned, I have nothing to apologise for or back down from.

I also object to 146 bringing up that I have a record for this sort of thing, whatever this sort of thing is? There's a difference between deliberately stirring up trouble, and trouble being stirred up by people's reactions to what someone posts.

link to original post

I think I'm just going to assume that you object to everything I say unless you specifically say otherwise. I was just offering a theory as to why your comment may have been more likely to be perceived (by some) as a racist comment given that you are just coming off of a ban for, "Hate Speech," being listed as a partial reason.

That seems like kind of a logical progression to me, right? One thing follows from the other thing.

Besides, I said that I didn't see a problem with your more recent post (the one or ones in question) immediately after that. I don't know why you would object to someone saying you didn't necessarily do anything wrong this time around, but you do you, bro.

Quote: Wellbush

Quote: Marcusclark66

Asians gamble, so what? So do whites, blacks, Latinos and Europeans, etc. I highly doubt that the majority of all Asians do gamble, really doubt that one.

All kinds of people from every nationality engage in addictive behavior with various vices of all kinds.

Funny how Asians usually do get 'singled out' at most casinos for being part of a majority that in numbers would surpass all other racial groups, etc.

IMO it makes for spicy talk that allows the perpetrator to appear educated on the subject, LOL.

link to original post

I think there's only a minority of Asians who gamble, but maybe there's a larger minority than other races? I'm not sure. Is that your experience Marcus?

link to original post

Proportionally the Asians as compared to other nationalities, I would have to say the Asians in total number would be quite less. Of course individual casinos and regions might have a higher Asian play rate at certain types of games.

Quote: SOOPOO

Can you tell me if you define these statements as racist?

A black man is 100 times as likely to be an NFL cornerback as a white man.

An Asian American is 10 times as likely to score over 1400 on her SAT’s than an African American.

In Chicago, you are 8 times as likely to be killed by someone of your own race if you are African American.

link to original post

If these statements are true, and can be verified by scientific data, then none of those statements are racist. They would simply be facts.

However, if you believe that these facts arose out of natural conditions, then you hold racist views.

Quote: Mission146

I think I'm just going to assume that you object to everything I say unless you specifically say otherwise. I was just offering a theory as to why your comment may have been more likely to be perceived (by some) as a racist comment given that you are just coming off of a ban for, "Hate Speech," being listed as a partial reason.

That seems like kind of a logical progression to me, right? One thing follows from the other thing.

Besides, I said that I didn't see a problem with your more recent post (the one or ones in question) immediately after that. I don't know why you would object to someone saying you didn't necessarily do anything wrong this time around, but you do you, bro.

link to original post

i don't object to everything you say, before you say it. i judge everything on its merits.

as far as saying i'm partially guilty of hate speech, i reject that entirely and i don't think anyone should be saying that. i explained my position on the matter (that it was simply a joke, and i had no ill feeling toward any race. and i apologised if people were offended).

if your 1. bringing it up again, i think you may still have some unresolved issues with it, and 2. adding it on to this one, then you think i'm guilty of racism (from my past and present statements) even though i've categorically stated and explained otherwise. if you don't think i'm guilty of racism, why are you suggesting that i need to be accountable for two separate offences.

again, if people react a certain way, are they reacting to something triggered inside themselves, or what the poster is intending? if someone's unsure, they can ask the poster for clarification.

Quote: Wellbush

i don't object to everything you say, before you say it. i judge everything on its merits.

as far as saying i'm partially guilty of hate speech, i reject that entirely and i don't think anyone should be saying that. i explained my position on the matter (that it was simply a joke, and i had no ill feeling toward any race. and i apologised if people were offended).

I'm saying that was one of the stated potential reasons for your most recent suspension; that's just a fact. Anyway, you served that suspension and I don't recall arguing against your explanation after you gave it. I'm simply suggesting that might be why some people interpreted your more recent post as perhaps being something that you say that it is not.

Quote:

if your 1. bringing it up again, i think you may still have some unresolved issues with it, and 2. adding it on to this one, then you think i'm guilty of racism (from my past and present statements) even though i've categorically stated and explained otherwise. if you don't think i'm guilty of racism, why are you suggesting that i need to be accountable for two separate offences.

again, if people react a certain way, are they reacting to something triggered inside themselves, or what the poster is intending? if someone's unsure, they can ask the poster for clarification.

link to original post

I'm not bringing it up for that reason. You served your Suspension and it's none of my concern. You seem to be missing the part where I said I don't necessarily see a problem with your recent posts.

Anyway, I'm not particularly concerned with what your intent was because I didn't see the most recent posts as inherently racist in the first place.

Quote: kalc

Making judgments on people solely based on their ethnic or gender identity is the definition of racism and sexism. The judgment criteria does not even need to be negative. You can say "Asians are very good at math, so that's why they win at casinos", and that would be a racist statement. By doing so, you would have taken away someone's humanity, and reduced them to a basic stereotype. Asians are no longer human beings with individual agency, but merely expressions of their assigned social group.

Such a statement would also reveal an incredible degree of laziness and/or ignorance. People of Asian descent make up around 60% of the world's population, and are made up of groups with cultures that are as diverse as those in any other continent in the world. Yet, in this thread, certain qualities are imbued onto all Asians based on a few casual observations of a few individuals in casinos in Perth, Las Vegas, and Macau. Asians in Perth (and Australia in general) are comprised of mainly of Chinese immigrants who arrived during the gold rush of the 1850-60's, Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees from the 1970's, working class and professional migrants from the Philippines and India since the 1970's, middle class economic migrants from Hong Kong and Taiwan from the 1980-90's, and middle class economic and educational migrants from mainland China since 2000. Which of these specific groups whose women does Wellbush believe are addicted to gambling? Is gambling in the culture of all of these groups, or just some?

Macau is the only place in China where gambling is legal, and its visitors are mainly middle class and upper class individuals from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. The Chinese players in the high stakes poker games in Macau are tremendously wealthy, or are offspring of the tremendously wealthy. The cutthroat capitalism in China of the past 30+ years have created a class of the ultra-rich. The ones who survived did so because of their ruthless nature and psychopathic obsession to win. Money means nothing to those people, except as a means to keep score. Does the top 0.1% of Chinese society reflect the values of all Chinese, and all Asian poker players? Your statement seems to think so.

Macau received nearly 28 million visitors from mainland China in 2019. China's population was 1.433 billion in 2019. What cultural observations did you make on the 1.405 billion Chinese people who did not visit Macau in 2019? Do you think that all of those people also like to be loose and splashy at a poker table, except that they just gamble illegally outside of Macau, because they can't afford to or don't want to go through the hassle of getting a permit to visit Macau? This is such an easy case of selection bias to spot; yet multiple people in this thread seem to be falling for it.

Finally, your comparison of a poker pro using heuristics to categorize opponents is not even valid. Poker is game of imperfect information, but within a few rounds, it is possible to make highly accurate observations on an opponent's play style, especially when the opponent is veering widely from optimal play. The observations don't even need to be that precise. If you think that someone's range is not well constructed, and they are folding just 3% too much, a solver will tell you to bluff everything, because every bluff is now profitable. Likewise, if someone is calling just 3% too much, then a solver will tell you to never bluff, widen your value range, and size up your value bets. Maximally exploiting your opponent's weaknesses is simply the optimal strategy.

At a poker table, everyone agrees to the rules of the game when they sit down. Your have an adversarial relationship with your opponents, and it is fine to use heuristics to maximize profits. When you are just walking past someone on the street, they're not asking to be judged.

link to original post

I agree with much of what you have said, but I think in your objection you badly mischaracterize what I said. At a poker table, I try to be very aware of my image, and I am very aware that age and gender and ethnicity are part of my initial image. I try to assess and manipulate my image at the table on an ongoing basis, and I use whatever knowledge of the world I glean to do that with. And at many tournaments, players are constantly changing tables as the field is reduced, so your glib assertions about how players know your game in 3 rounds with great precision are vapid bloviating and worthless, in my opinion. I play in significant WSOP poker tournaments, and I don't value inaccurate statements from an anonymous entity who rarely posts on this forum.

Some female poker players would tell you that some male poker players tend to make certain assumptions about the playing style of unknown female players, and they would tell you how they use that information. That's an interesting discussion. I am not going to disallow people from discussing those kind of gambling-specific issues because you claim to find it offensive and want to name-call.

My comments on Macau poker games are widely echoed throughout the poker community and are no more sinister than saying that your local poker casino seems to have tight games on Monday afternoons and loose games on Friday night. My comment on high stakes games was never intended to be interpreted as a comment on the hundred of millions Chinese people who never gamble. You are free to interpret anything in a way that you wish to, but I am free to ignore you.

If you want to know about the ethnicities of the people that Wellbush saw - Vietnamese or Cambodian or Filipino - then I suggest that you ask him. Don't ask me.

I will not be responding further to any of your posts on this topic, unless you violate a forum rule.

Quote: kalc

Quote: SOOPOO

Can you tell me if you define these statements as racist?

A black man is 100 times as likely to be an NFL cornerback as a white man.

An Asian American is 10 times as likely to score over 1400 on her SAT’s than an African American.

In Chicago, you are 8 times as likely to be killed by someone of your own race if you are African American.

link to original post

If these statements are true, and can be verified by scientific data, then none of those statements are racist. They would simply be facts.

However, if you believe that these facts arose out of natural conditions, then you hold racist views.

link to original post

I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?

link to original post

You presented several statements that proclaim differences between two ethnic groups. If these statements are factual, then they are not inherently racist in and of themselves. They are simply neutral statements of fact.

However, if you believe that African Americans have certain natural attributes that make them better at playing the position of cornerback, or that Asian Americans have certain natural attributes that allow them to achieve higher scores on the SAT, or that African Americans in Chicago have certain natural attributes that cause them to commit murder against other African Americans at a higher rate, then you hold racist attitudes.

All of the statements that you presented may well be true, but none of these outcomes were results of natural conditions (i.e. natural differences between people of different ethnicities). Something else created these differences.

As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft. African American players are steered away from certain positions like QB, and towards positions like CB, WR and RB throughout their entire amateur careers. Even elite African American college quarterbacks, including Lamar Jackson, routinely face calls to switch to a different position prior to the NFL draft. Therefore, it is no mystery why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are black and (until very recently) nearly all NFL starting quarterbacks are white.

Quote: kalc

Quote: SOOPOO

I’m not sure what a ‘natural condition’ is? If I asked you why virtually every starting NFL cornerback is African American, what is your educated guess?

link to original post

You presented several statements that proclaim differences between two ethnic groups. If these statements are factual, then they are not inherently racist in and of themselves. They are simply neutral statements of fact.

However, if you believe that African Americans have certain natural attributes that make them better at playing the position of cornerback, or that Asian Americans have certain natural attributes that allow them to achieve higher scores on the SAT, or that African Americans in Chicago have certain natural attributes that cause them to commit murder against other African Americans at a higher rate, then you hold racist attitudes.

All of the statements that you presented may well be true, but none of these outcomes were results of natural conditions (i.e. natural differences between people of different ethnicities). Something else created these differences.

As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft. African American players are steered away from certain positions like QB, and towards positions like CB, WR and RB throughout their entire amateur careers. Even elite African American college quarterbacks, including Lamar Jackson, routinely face calls to switch to a different position prior to the NFL draft. Therefore, it is no mystery why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are black and (until very recently) nearly all NFL starting quarterbacks are white.

link to original post

as far as I'm aware kalc, racism means one sees a certain nationality, or several, in a negative way. What you're suggesting is that one seeing a nationality, or several, exhibiting differential traits, to be racism. I'm not sure that's correct. I just got the below pop up first on a search:

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/race-discrimination/what-racism

Racism takes many forms and can happen in many places. It includes prejudice, discrimination or hatred directed at someone because of their colour, ethnicity or national origin.

Quote: kalc

As for why nearly all NFL cornerbacks are African American, my educated guess is that it is a result of pervasive institutional racism and socioeconomic inequalities that bend the trajectory of a player's career from the time that they enter Pop Warner to the time they declare for the NFL draft.

Do you really believe that there are NO physical differences between races? Same coincidence for Blacks dominating 100 meter dash? Do you think both Blacks and Caucasians have similar physical ability to avoid sunburn?

Do you think the hundreds of white college cornerbacks all for some reason don’t want to be pro cornerbacks?

Do you think height is evenly distributed amongst all races?

Quote: SOOPOO

Do you really believe that there are NO physical differences between races?

Ooooh, a political and social "hot button issue."

Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder said:

"The black is a better athlete to begin with, because he`s been bred to be that way, because of his high thighs and big thighs that go up into his back and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs, you see". . . .''This goes back all the way to the Civil War when . . . the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. . . .''

Quote: MrV

Ooooh, a political and social "hot button issue."

Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder said:

"The black is a better athlete to begin with, because he`s been bred to be that way, because of his high thighs and big thighs that go up into his back and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs, you see". . . .''This goes back all the way to the Civil War when . . . the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. . . .''

link to original post

Refresh my memory. Where did Mr. Snyder get his advanced training in anthropology?

Quote: billryan

Refresh my memory. Where did Mr. Snyder get his advanced training in anthropology?

Huh?

That was just his off the cuff personal opinion.

He made his living as a bookmaker in Las Vegas; obviously he "noticed things" and formed an opinion based on what he observed.

Quote: MrV

Huh?

That was just his off the cuff personal opinion.

He made his living as a bookmaker in Las Vegas; obviously he "noticed things" and formed an opinion based on what he observed.

link to original post

His garbage opinion got him fired and certainly isn't worth repeating today.
I only took two anthropology classes and they were in 1981 so things might have changed but we were taught it is almost impossible to determine a skeletons race unless the skull is intact. Take away the skull and there are no skeletal differences that would pinpoint a persons skin color.
As I say, I'm going off forty year old information so advances may have changed that.