ADDICTION, CONTROLLED, OR BOTH?

If this sub-forum isn't the right spot, sorry!

I was just thinking about this today and wanted some insight from some of you. Do you feel like a gambling "addict" can be addicted to gambling and be a "controlled gambler" at the same time?

For instance, I stop at the casino between my house and work 4-5 times a week. I bet on every sporting event I plan to watch, which means I bet on one usually every night. I also, when not watching a sport on TV I have money on, play an online casino game on my tablet at home in the evenings bored. Many people would call that a definite addicted gambler.

However, I never spend money I do not have to lose. I make well over 6 figures a year and have a 6 figure bank account. I have multiple high limit credit cards all with 0 balances and have NEVER used a credit card to gamble at all! I've never struggled financially trying to cover my gambling. EVER!

Could I quit? Maybe. Do I want too? No! I do not feel it is an addiction though. I feel I use it as entertainent, as my main #1 hobby, and feel I have it well under control and have for many, many years.

I guess it's the equivalent of some people being able to socially drink a few beers and then not have one for months and the guy who takes 1 sip and needs 1 every day after that.

Thoughts?

Again, I'm not asking for any help or anything about me personally, just thoughts on if addicted gamblers can be controlled gamblers in general.

Coincidentally I just posted this in the other thread.

If you could have seen the hollow dead look in this player's eyes with whom I chanced to cross paths this week, you'd have had to stop for a moment just to be grateful to not be in such a position.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Yet another player latched on to me at some point recently. As usual, turned out to be a mistake. Couldn’t help the player and ended up a complete waste of time and energy. Player had already dumped a huge amount elsewhere, and at the casino where I was playing at my private table I helped the player get up well over a hundred K no less than three times, but each time after I went to sleep the player kept going until morning and dumped it all. Notwithstanding a final monster run the player left in the red. After left I tried to talk to the player and player kept saying, “Why can’t I stop when I am ahead?”

Besides the tragicomic comments the player was making while was losing at the tables (“I lost ______. I neglected my business, my clients, everything. What am I doing here.”) I ran into the host I had set the player up with, and host was saying that talked to the player after left town and finally had to say to the player, “I’m just a host, not a therapist.” 😟 😅 Sorry, but how tragicomic can you get.

This player has now dumped a cool million between two very short trips. That is astonishing to me. I mean, here I've been in Vegas playing somewhat regularly for over four months, and am actually ahead, and this player dumps a million in a blink of an eye - playing at regular 20K limit tables! What I mean is, if the player had been here four plus months as I have, and dumped a mill, okay, terrible, but not incredible. But to dump that much in just days...wow.

Now, in that player's case, I can't understand why such a person would even keep playing. Claims to have dumped $2M over the past 10 years, and $1M in just the past two very short trips (about a week or even less, each). From what I gather, this player has never won. As in - almost no winning sessions and absolutely no winning trips. Why even keep playing?

Someone like that is a straight gambling addict from the gate.

The more general progression of LOSERMANIA in my opinion works like this. A player might be a disciplined person capable of walking away ahead, and keeping losses small or at worst on par with wins. Then at some point the player loses control and starts losing more than wins. Eventually gets to where the player may never win and just keeps playing until loses it all every time. This is the progression described by the OP. In my opinion, once someone gets to that point of addiction there is no U-Turn and should just quit.

I believe this is the progression described in all addictions - alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling - etc. where once a person crosses the line the only or at least best solution is complete abstinence.

I'm no expert, but you gamble very frequently, which is bad, but seem disciplined, which is good.

I suppose the acid test would be to voluntarily stop gambling for a few weeks and see how you adjust to not gambling.

Does your family or friends tell you that you think you have a problem?

There are online quizzes you can take to see if you meet the criteria for a problem gambler.

Makes sense. I didn't see that. Thanks for re-sharing.

I know it's cliche for all addicts to say this, but I have extreme discipline.

If I take $1,000 to the casino and lose $1,000, I am DONE! No ATM, no chasing, I leave!

I also have the discipline to buy in for $1,000, play for the time I wanted to play, and then if I am up, get out the door. I have seldom lost my entire session bankroll, and would guess my lifetime net is somewhere near house edge. I chalk that up as entertainment expense.

All hobbies cost money. Sometimes mine costs more, sometimes it pays me, but long term it costs me about the house edge.

I'm also disciplined in the sense that I could take $50,000 to the casino and lose it and still have plenty of money in my bank, but instead I play $25-$100/hand blackjack, $15-$25 min craps, and my sports bets average between $110 to $550 high end.

I'd say considering my financial situation, I have it controlled. I understand many people do not, and I see these same people in the casinos I frequent.

Quote: MrV

I'm no expert, but you gamble very frequently, which is bad, but seem disciplined, which is good.

I suppose the acid test would be to voluntarily stop gambling for a few weeks and see how you adjust to not gambling.

Does your family or friends tell you that you think you have a problem?

There are online quizzes you can take to see if you meet the criteria for a problem gambler.

I've had people tell me Im definitely addicted, but those that know me best also say it's very controlled. I just wondered if thats in fact possible? Or a paradox?

I remember when I first started playing as a kid and my credit lines were only mid four figures. I went to the cage to pay my markers and the cashier started to hand me the markers inside an envelope and said, making a face, "Ugh, those aren't yours. Believe me you don't want those."

Sometimes, I wonder how many markers were inside that envelope and whether these days on the occasions where I've had losing sessions if my envelope of markers would exceed what was in that guy's envelope.

And another thing, on one of my recent sessions at a public table there was this kid, who was barely 21, playing Baccarat. I mean the guy did not even look old enough to drink. Was playing "small," just 100 - 200 per hand, and with a $2000. bankroll, pulling out $1000. at a time, that was not even all 100s like he got it from the bank, but fifties and twenties too, and eventually lost it all. Said was a Vegas local. I actually felt for the guy, and tried to tell him about how I didn't gamble at all for many years in order to complete law school and get my career and businesses in order. I mean back when I started playing I somehow managed to almost always win, playing just Blackjack. I have been playing Blackjack since I was an infant practically. And here this kid comes up and dumps $2000. and just gets up and leaves, a Vegas local, obviously destined to come back soon with more. That's not good. I don't like to see very young people get involved with gambling unless they really seem like they can afford it (or at least win at it!), and even then, I don't think it's a good idea.

Quote: mwalz9

If this sub-forum isn't the right spot, sorry!

I was just thinking about this today and wanted some insight from some of you. Do you feel like a gambling "addict" can be addicted to gambling and be a "controlled gambler" at the same time?

For instance, I stop at the casino between my house and work 4-5 times a week. I bet on every sporting event I plan to watch, which means I bet on one usually every night. I also, when not watching a sport on TV I have money on, play an online casino game on my tablet at home in the evenings bored. Many people would call that a definite addicted gambler.

However, I never spend money I do not have to lose. I make well over 6 figures a year and have a 6 figure bank account. I have multiple high limit credit cards all with 0 balances and have NEVER used a credit card to gamble at all! I've never struggled financially trying to cover my gambling. EVER!

Could I quit? Maybe. Do I want too? No! I do not feel it is an addiction though. I feel I use it as entertainent, as my main #1 hobby, and feel I have it well under control and have for many, many years.

I guess it's the equivalent of some people being able to socially drink a few beers and then not have one for months and the guy who takes 1 sip and needs 1 every day after that.

Thoughts?

Again, I'm not asking for any help or anything about me personally, just thoughts on if addicted gamblers can be controlled gamblers in general.

Quit any form of gambling for a week. If you aren't addicted you can do it standing on your head.

Diagnosis

For a diagnosis of gambling addiction, The DSM-5 states that a person must show or experience at least four of the following during the past 12 months:

Need to gamble with increasing amounts of money to feel excitement
Restlessness or irritability when trying to stop gambling
Repeated unsuccessful attempts to stop, control, or reduce gambling
Thinking often about gambling and making plans to gamble
Gambling when feeling distressed
Returning to gamble again after losing money
Lying to conceal gambling activities
Experiencing relationship or work problems due to gambling
Depending on others for money to spend on gambli


see: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/15929


I submit that being able to gamble within your means is an encouraging yet not definitive sign that you are not an addict: how well do you do when looking at the above nine factors?

Well, that player I mention who has dumped a million in past two very short trips left Vegas and came back about ten days or maybe two weeks later, so quit for MORE than a week, but came right back to the exact same degenerate out of control losing as before. Plus it's not like seems to be able to afford that kind of loss. I mean no one wants or likes to lose but this player is acting like going to get offed for taking what might not belong to the player if doesn't win it back.

I can't tell you how many of the same faces I see in the high limit pits complaining about how they're down -10K, -20K, -50K, or more trying to get it back. I rarely run into anyone who says is up and just deciding when to leave, most of them seem to be chasing losses.

That player I'm referring to is trying to chase a million, and can't even bet more than 20K at a time. How is that ever going to happen? What the player should have done is deposited the whole million at once and asked to play to 50K a hand or some such. Probably never assumed would ever get this deep in the hole or deposit that much money, I assume. ALL IN!

Quote: MrV

Thinking often about gambling and making plans to gamble

Assuming it's not what you do for a living or part-time AP, I would be very concerned with this one in and of itself.

Quote: mwalz9

I was just thinking about this today and wanted some insight from some of you. Do you feel like a gambling "addict" can be addicted to gambling and be a "controlled gambler" at the same time?

No.


Fortunately it sounds like you're still just a gambler, not an addict.
I'm not your therapist; this is not a diagnosis; there's a link to GamCare at the bottom of the page if you, your friends, or your family is worried.

Quote: AxelWolf

Assuming it's not what you do for a living or part-time AP, I would be very concerned with this one in and of itself.

Axel, you are an AP and appear to know many AP's.

In your opinion are many AP's addicted to gambling?

That is, even though they gamble for a living, might the listed criteria still fit many of them?

Would a drug dealer who makes money off drugs but is a daily user himself not be an addict? Just tossing that out there.

Actually, as an aside, the way I look at drug users, is that if a drug user could wake up in the morning, shave, have breakfast, read the news, deal with business and any emails or correspondence, then step into the office, and as an afterthought, take an occasional shot of something, he wouldn't be an addict. Addicts live to use and use to live - many drug users think they live a full life and just happen to use, but real addicts are mostly just going through the motions in their lives while their primary drive is to use drugs.


One rule I have always followed is to never gamble at any local casinos at home. Wouldn't want to wake up any morning and have to decide between going to work or the casinos. That doesn't sound like a good idea. When we're at home I don't even think about entering any casinos for anything other than maybe a buffet with family.

If we end up living in Vegas even as just another home...that might be the end of MDawg's Vegas gaming career.


It's interesting but although we have been here now continuously four and a half months, I recorded about 90 sessions, which means a good 40 or more days of no play.

Quote: Dieter

No.


Fortunately it sounds like you're still just a gambler, not an addict.
I'm not your therapist; this is not a diagnosis; there's a link to GamCare at the bottom of the page if you, your friends, or your family is worried.

Im not concerned. Neither is my immediate family. We all feel its very under control.

I was just striking conversation about a thought I had.

All hobbies costs money.

Fishing, hunting, hiking, going to live sporting events, concerts, collecting, etc...

My hobby just happens to be gambling. I have NEVER bet more than I could very comfortably afford to lose.

Sometimes my hobby costs me a few hundred dollars. Sometimes it pays me.

I play very low house edge games. (Craps [THE DON'Ts], BlackJack, Pai Gow Poker, and bet sports).

Whats the difference in buying $1,000 worth of fishing gear to go fish for a few hours a week, or to gamble for a few hours and maybe lose that same money, but maybe win it?

Also, here's an example of a day for me at the casino and gambling. This actually happened last night..

Go to my local casino between my work and home. The $15 BJ game I want to play is full. So I sit down at a Rakin' Bacon slot machine I watch a lot and see the minor progressive is pretty high for said game. You can hit the progressive at any bet level. So, while I dont play many slots at all, I put $100 in and do $0.88 a spin. I hit a few line hits and then hit the minor progressive. I cash the $300 ticket and I ended up net +$200 total.

I take that same $200 I just won, buy into a $15 blackjack game that finally has a seat. I play 2 full shoes at $15/hand, with a $5 bet on the in between. I actually hit a triple match and a couple one card spreads and ended up another $175. So now I have $375 house money.

I take the $200 and put it safely in my wallet. I bet $175 of it on a baseball game I planned to watch when I got home. I bet a -175 favorite to win $100. The bet ended up losing, but made a random Wednesday night baseball game more fun for me.

I enjoyed an evening, and made $200!

Keep in mind, this is similar to how I always bet and I am a guy who makes 6 figures a year, has a 6 figure savings account, and multiple high limit credit cards with 0 balance. I could, if I wanted to, bet way bigger and way crazier. I honestly feel like it's just a hobby and I have it very controlled.

I would just chalk it up to, mental health professionals aside, the best person to decide whether or not an individual has a problem is the individual himself/herself. Many addictions can come down to taking a realistic self-appraisal, so sometimes that can be done and the answer is, "No, I am not addicted."

What if instead of casino gambling you spent that amount of time and money on something else that interested you, for example automobile repair, maintenance and restoration.

I can easily envision a scenario where you'd spend that amount of time and money on it.

Would that be an addiction?

I think not: just a "hobby."

If it's not a problem then hey, it's not a problem.

Quote: mwalz9

All hobbies costs money.

Fishing, hunting, hiking, going to live sporting events, concerts, collecting, etc...

My hobby just happens to be gambling. I have NEVER bet more than I could very comfortably afford to lose.

Sometimes my hobby costs me a few hundred dollars. Sometimes it pays me.

I play very low house edge games. (Craps [THE DON'Ts], BlackJack, Pai Gow Poker, and bet sports).

Whats the difference in buying $1,000 worth of fishing gear to go fish for a few hours a week, or to gamble for a few hours and maybe lose that same money, but maybe win it?

I absolutely agree with you.

Some people golf, bowl, collect stamps, read books, etc.

Gambling is my hobby.

I don't consider it losing my money.

I tell my children that I am playing with their inheritance money.

Definition a lot of addict specialists use is when you feel a compulsion to do something that you would feel otherwise negative feelings if you weren't able to do that activity. What I would suggest is this. Go 1 entire month without betting a single dollar. If you can genuinely do that and not feel negatively affected by it, then you should then resume gambling. If you cannot go 1 month without gambling without feeling bad about it, the yes you're addicted and i'd spend some of that 6 figure income on a good therapist to explore why. Remember, any mental justification about "Why should I take a month off?!" is a sign of addiction as well.

Quote: MDawg

Well, that player I mention who has dumped a million in past two very short trips left Vegas and came back about ten days or maybe two weeks later, so quit for MORE than a week, but came right back to the exact same degenerate out of control losing as before. Plus it's not like seems to be able to afford that kind of loss. I mean no one wants or likes to lose but this player is acting like going to get offed for taking what might not belong to the player if doesn't win it back.

Really? How do you know he wasn't spending that time online, or hunting his local lottery vendor?

As far as that player I've talked to the player again and Baccarat seems to be the player's thing. There is a set of people who actually view Baccarat as a form of income. I haven't seen many if any of them make money on it regularly so that baffles me why they view it as such.

As far as gambling in general, if a person sometimes win sometimes loses views it as entertainment and can afford the over all loss, I don't see a problem with it. But anyone who consistently loses even if can afford it I don't see the attraction seems like self destructive behavior to me.

I still think that the house edge isn't what gets people even on negative expectation games it is themselves - some players just get to the point of losing control and start dumping money every session, always playing until they lose. Maybe it happens after one losing session and they chase after that, lose again, and then start chasing forever but whatever the reason, something happens with some players that they start playing excessively to a consistent loss. I mean dumping your entire bankroll every trip cannot be explained by the house edge, and seriously, there are some players who do that very consistently.

your belief is much like mine, id hate to live in a world w/o chocolate and would suck to live in a world without dr pepper
as long as your not getting kicked out of your apartment or losing your house i say do what feels good =)

Quote: MrV

Axel, you are an AP and appear to know many AP's.

In your opinion are many AP's addicted to gambling?

That is, even though they gamble for a living, might the listed criteria still fit many of them?

There there are so many levels of addictions/ compulsions/problem X, so you would have to define that.

What if one's addiction is a huge net positive to their life? for instance, someone is totally addicted to video games, but they are making millions of dollars doing it
along with being an overall positive thing in their life?

Are we talking many, as in more than the average American that gambles? That's really hard to say. You would think that it would have to be above average since they are gambling, but perhaps not, because to be an Advantage Player you have to have a certain mindset.

We would have to define who and exactly what an Advantage Player is. For the sake of this conversation, let's define it as someone who relies on AP as their main source of income.

If we take a look at the general definition and try to apply it to advantage players, we begin to see there are some problems that are unique to Advantage Players.

1) A person feels the need to gamble with an increasing amount of money in order to achieve the desired excitement. *(This would be a problem for sure.)

2) A person becomes angry, restless or irritable when someone tells them to cut back on their gambling, or to stop it altogether. *( Your friends and family know this is how you make a living so I dont really think you can apply it)

3) A person will have unsuccessfully tried to cut back or stop gambling on their own.*(Why would and AP want to stop or cut back?)

4) A person has frequent thoughts about gambling, including reliving past gambling adventures, planning their next gambling outing, and thinking of ways to get money to gamble with. *(It's what you do for a living, so of course, this stuff is happening)

5) A person will often gamble when they are feeling distressed. *(This is an issue and something I would consider a major sign that an AP has a problem)

6) After a person loses money, they return to try and “get even” *(referred to as “chasing” one’s losses) (This is a tricky one since advantage players are continually playing, however, they know if they are playing for the +EV or they are Hot-Sucker/steaming and chasing losses. I have to think that most AP's have done this at least a time or two)

7) A person will not hesitate to lie to hide their gambling activity. *( there is no reason for an AP to hide it)

8) A person will jeopardize or lose a significant relationship, job or educational/career opportunity because of gambling. *(Again, it what you for a living so I dont think it can apply)

9) A person will begin relying on others to help with money problems caused by their gambling habits *(It's time to get a real job)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do know very successfully AP's that basically have to be in action/always playing +EV, as in, they would decline x amount of money to not play for x amount of time. I guess that would be an addiction, but if it's a net positive to their life, what can you say?

Most AP's I have known personally will occasionally play -EV games while passing some time for entertainment, perhaps a small sports bet, dinking around with friends or family who are on town, playing a game they enjoy such as craps, etc. If you are playing a significant amount of _EV gambling, no doubt, you probably have a problem.

I also have known what I call degenerate AP's, guys that basically blow all their money playing bad stuff, or things that are way above their bankroll limit that might be slightly -EV, break-even or slightly positive.

I also believe other factors that play a big part are.
What kind of gambler you were before you got into AP?
What kind of AP are you into?
What's your overall knowledge about Advantage Play?

I would say, for the most part, when it comes to truly successful well-rounded Advantage Players, it's probably on par with whatever the average is.

Quote: MDawg

Would a drug dealer who makes money off drugs but is a daily user himself not be an addict? Just tossing that out there.

Would someone who DOES NOT make their living from gambling, but then spends all day across multiple forums making many long posts about their high-limit gambling/casinos not be an addict? Just tossing that out there.

Quote: AxelWolf

Would someone who DOES NOT make their living from gambling, but then spends all day across multiple forums making many long posts about their high-limit gambling/casinos not be an addict? Just tossing that out there.

Interesting question.
There are some, that might see this as a finely veiled insult.

** *** *** ****, **** **!

Quote: OnceDear

Interesting question.
There are some, that might see this as a finely veiled insult.

** *** *** ****, **** **!

And what he posted, in what was an obvious response to where MRV asked me a question was not as well?

I say do your job and suspend both of us based on martingale. if you are unwilling to do a martingale, I'm willing to gladly accept giving me double the time in red of whatever you give him.

Some interesting comments coming in about this thread. I'm not going to disclose anything about PM's, but this is my answer to the PM's and to AxelWolf's comment.

It's pretty clear that AxelWolf was alluding to a certain un-named member in one of his replies here. But, it was in the form of an open question. Earlier, MDawg had alluded to a hypothetical drug addicted drug dealer. Someone could have taken that as applying to him as some sort of insult by metaphor.

I'm reminded of a recent ruling of my own...

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/43/#post814691
Which I later over-ruled myself...
...and was explained by TomG
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/44/#post814722

So, Let's see if I can sort of refine the interpretation of veiled insults where the recipient is not named, but it is clearly directed at someone.....

Just don't do it!

Rule 1 is clear: NO PERSONAL INSULTS! Not overt ones, not veiled ones, not even ones aimed at whole communities, racial or sexual groupings where a member of that thread is clearly being singled out.

Of the posts in this thread, I believe that AxelWolf was quite clearly having a dig at MDawg. It was not subtle and he all but confirmed that it was retaliatory.

Of the earlier post by MDawg where he used the metaphor of a drug addict, that MIGHT have been meant as a sleight against AxelWolf. But it was subtle and could have been misread by AxelWolf, enough to inspire him to retaliate.

Now these members seem to want each-other suspended. I'm thinking both or neither. And in this instance, I'm going with 'neither'

No one picked up on my obfuscated comment yet. maybe work together on it.

** *** *** ****, **** **

Quote: OnceDear

Some interesting comments coming in about this thread. I'm not going to disclose anything about PM's, but this is my answer to the PM's and to AxelWolf's comment.

It's pretty clear that AxelWolf was alluding to a certain un-named member in one of his replies here. But, it was in the form of an open question. Earlier, MDawg had alluded to a hypothetical drug addicted drug dealer. Someone could have taken that as applying to him as some sort of insult by metaphor.

I'm reminded of a recent ruling of my own...

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/43/#post814691
Which I later over-ruled myself...
...and was explained by TomG
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/36179-casino-anti-money-laundering-and-compliance/44/#post814722

So, Let's see if I can sort of refine the interpretation of veiled insults where the recipient is not named, but it is clearly directed at someone.....

Just don't do it!

Rule 1 is clear: NO PERSONAL INSULTS! Not overt ones, not veiled ones, not even ones aimed at whole communities, racial or sexual groupings where a member of that thread is clearly being singled out.

Of the posts in this thread, I believe that AxelWolf was quite clearly having a dig at MDawg. It was not subtle and he all but confirmed that it was retaliatory.

Of the earlier post by MDawg where he used the metaphor of a drug addict, that MIGHT have been meant as a sleight against AxelWolf. But it was subtle and could have been misread by AxelWolf, enough to inspire him to retaliate.

Now these members seem to want each-other suspended. I'm thinking both or neither. And in this instance, I'm going with 'neither'

No one picked up on my obfuscated comment yet. maybe work together on it.

** *** *** ****, **** **

It's simple, I think we should both be suspended. Since mine was more obvious, I'll take 20 times the amount of my last time out, and you can just give him 2 times his last suspension.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's simple, I think we should both be suspended. Since mine was more obvious, I'll take 20 times the amount of my last time out, and you can just give him 2 times his last suspension.

Thanks your kind offer is declined.