Dark Side Craps systems

I recently watched the Wizard of Odds videos detailing how he plays the Don't Pass/Don't Come bets. I have been trying the system at a free online site and wonder if there isn't a point at which you stop the process of betting Don't Come, seems that when there is a hot shooter you are constantly repeating the Don't Come bets and eventually lose. Is there a limit to how many times a shooter hits a number that I should then stop Don't Come bets?

Thanks still looking for the advantage.

There is no advantage playing dice based craps. Period.

As a money management tool, I usually stop betting don't and don't come after a shooter takes down 3 of my bets with odds. (I don't count come out bets). I never switch, just wait for next shooter.

This does not give any advantage. Just gives me a little longer at the table.

Try this link to "Dave's System" Good read. Good system. He doesn't throw. But he has been 86'd by one casino for winning too much!
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS708US708&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=685&q=%22Dave%27s+System%22&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM7rjQ-r_RAhXDPCYKHTmhARMQvwUIFygA

Thanks Wrongway I need to add this to how I am playing, I suspected those who have tried the systems would have good feedback on when to stop and live to play another day.

Quote: DeMango

Try ... "Dave's System" Good read. Good system. He doesn't throw. But he has been 86'd by one casino for winning too much!

DeMan,

Many thanx for sharing. If any "system" can go toe-to-toe against the casino, Dave's System shaves the casino edge to about as close to zero as one can get.

When I play craps, I often favor playing the Don't bets. But, I also like the shared camaraderie by betting with everyone when the table is hot. So, rather than do either, I usually do neither. But, I wonder why everyone doesn't shoot from the Don't side and crush the casino.

As for yourself, do you favor playing one side or the other? Or, are you a true craps agnostic?

Quote: Playinnow

I recently watched the Wizard of Odds videos detailing how he plays the Don't Pass/Don't Come bets. I have been trying the system at a free online site and wonder if there isn't a point at which you stop the process of betting Don't Come, seems that when there is a hot shooter you are constantly repeating the Don't Come bets and eventually lose. Is there a limit to how many times a shooter hits a number that I should then stop Don't Come bets?

Thanks still looking for the advantage.

Good luck on this forum with talking about a 'hot table' ! lol

Quote: LuckyPhow

As for yourself, do you favor playing one side or the other? Or, are you a true craps agnostic?

I need to shoot from the don't, it's the way to go.

5 years ago I was at an IP table and someone was playing "Dave's System" I, of course, asked him if he was dave. He said no, but "Bobby Bones" has become my best craps buddy. He needs to shoot from the don't also. We will get there.

Quote: DeMango

I need to shoot from the don't, it's the way to go.

I often think so. I like it when the stick says "From the Don't, hoping they won't" and some people walk away from the table or quite obviously groan.
I had been on the Don't for about twenty minutes when the dice came to me and one young girl was utterly shocked that I stayed on the Don't when I was the shooter.

Now I will admit.... between Do and Don't it ain't much ... you gotta take it out to four decimal places, so it sure isn't much of an advantage. And since I generally tip well, hence the 'stiff' part of my moniker, that four-decimal-place "edge" sure disappears. I also tend to reward the Tray Lizard to compensate for the calouses on her feet, so any "edge" disappears there too.

But I sure do like the Don'ts. I feel like I'm betting with the Casino... and that is surely as close I will ever get to owning a casino.

Don't Pass then two Don't Come but also Place the Six and Eight. All Line Bets get Odds asap. Odds are always "working". Dealers are in the game on my first bet and dealers get shoes too.

Quote: Playinnow

I recently watched the Wizard of Odds videos detailing how he plays the Don't Pass/Don't Come bets. I have been trying the system at a free online site and wonder if there isn't a point at which you stop the process of betting Don't Come, seems that when there is a hot shooter you are constantly repeating the Don't Come bets and eventually lose. Is there a limit to how many times a shooter hits a number that I should then stop Don't Come bets?

Thanks still looking for the advantage.

I see quite a few scenario's from people betting both sides.
First off if you went to the casino and the craps table min was $15 (Too rich for some people)
You can bet $15 on the DP and $15 on the Pass then bet 5.00 for odds in behind either DP or Pass ($1.00 on the 12 crap for insurance)
I think why people bet both sides is simply because they want to be cheap by betting much less than the min bet.

Second, DC/COME is good because you can bet $15 on the DC and $15 on the COME then bet 5.00 for odds on the come bet ($1.00 on the 12 crap for insurance)
If you think about it if you place the 6 or 8 for 6.00 pays 7 to 6 odds winning $1.00 extra but you have an extra $1.00 at risk when placing.
By betting both DC and PASS, you only put $5.00 on the COME odds and still make $1.00 but that $1.00 you put on the 12 crap that pays 30 to 1 so you lose the COME bet, DC gets Bar, 12 craps pays $30.00 minus $15 lost on the COME bet, still makes 15 profit. That's just the 6,8. The 4,10 pay even more so you can make even on your COME odds and invest the profit in the center bets and hope for a win, After all it's free betting.

There are many advantages. You just need to look for them.

Quote: Laymedown

I see quite a few scenario's from people betting both sides.
First off if you went to the casino and the craps table min was $15 (Too rich for some people)
You can bet $15 on the DP and $15 on the Pass then bet 5.00 for odds in behind either DP or Pass ($1.00 on the 12 crap for insurance)
I think why people bet both sides is simply because they want to be cheap by betting much less than the min bet.

Lmdown, Do you know how many people are wondering if you are 'for real'? You produce an absolute storm of words, thousands a day just here, my God I'd get tired just talking that much, never mind having to write it. Sometimes you work on formatting too.

But what you are writing is often very misguided, full of gambler's fallacies, and just plain wrong like that last sentence. I don't think you are trying to bait people [I wondered at first] so it seems you think you are making sense. You are not! You are coming across as a Craps enthusiast who can't find anything not to like as long as it involves Craps.

This site is about smarter gambling. There is little sign that you are 'with the program'. I guess you don't have to be, but if you do all that reading etc. seems to me you might care ... it's time to not just read but to try for some comprehension too!

Quote:

I think why people bet both sides is simply because they want to be cheap by betting much less than the min bet

Betting both sides increases the amount you are betting. The two bets *do not* cancel each other out! Each bet you make has an undefeatable EV attached to it and no negative expectation bet can cancel out another! I'm sorry but this shows you are not learning anything though presumably reading everything! You should just know these things by now [I can't use another exclamation pt. but that needs one too]

Quote:

Second, DC/COME is good because you can bet $15 on the DC and $15 on the COME then bet 5.00 for odds on the come bet ($1.00 on the 12 crap for insurance)

Read my paragraph above again and ask yourself why you are advocating this. Have you not come across the advice not to hedge?

Quote:

If you think about it if you place the 6 or 8 for 6.00 pays 7 to 6 odds winning $1.00 extra but you have an extra $1.00 at risk when placing. By betting both DC and PASS, you only put $5.00 on the COME odds and still make $1.00 but that $1.00 you put on the 12 crap that pays 30 to 1 so you lose the COME bet, DC gets Bar, 12 craps pays $30.00 minus $15 lost on the COME bet, still makes 15 profit.

Can you really defend using words like 'profit' ?

Quote:

That's just the 6,8. The 4,10 pay even more so you can make even on your COME odds and invest the profit in the center bets and hope for a win, After all it's free betting.

Profit. Free betting. My man, you have a long ways to go. Show some evidence you are getting there.

Quote:

There are many advantages. You just need to look for them.

Very fine words. The casinos should hire you and indeed pay you by the word to go around and mislead people at these sites. You won't get suspended here for that but I for one will just have to block you and these threads even though I don't like to block Craps threads. Please get real.

First off, Thank you for the wonderful well organized reply odiousgambit
Second, I do apologize for my lingo, I try to learn many new things every day
Third, I know I should cut down on replying to some articles, I'm just new here and getting my feet wet.
Forth, I appreciate your statements in CORRECTING ME IF I'M WRONG. Hey it's how we learn and what we learn that makes us smarter.
Fifth, Yes I do enjoy the game of craps and love to discuss betting techniques and all other aspects about the game and I'm sorry If I mislead you or others. I appreciate you telling me too.
Sixth, I'm only subscribed to 18 forum threads in craps and betting systems out of the many hundreds available. 18 is not that much.

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Betting both sides increases the amount you are betting. The two bets *do not* cancel each other out!

Can you please explain why you say this? I'm not quite understanding this one little part.

Quote: Laymedown

Can you please explain why you say this? I'm not quite understanding this one little part.

If you put $1 on pass and $1 on don’t pass, you will break even on every roll except for a 12.

So that strategy would cost $1 every ~36 rolls with zero chance of a win.

Quote: gamerfreak

If you put $1 on pass and $1 on don't pass, you will break even on every roll except for a 12.

So that strategy would cost $1 every ~36 rolls with zero chance of a win.

another way to look at it is 'just to know' that there is the same house edge on both and on one dollar that is 1.4 cents approx. So, if you make 2 negative expectation bets for the same amount with the same edge like that, instead of cancelling *they are added together*

proof: 2.8 cents times 36 equals the one dollar in the simpler case above [with round off error]

One thing a smarter Craps player needs to realize is that he will be confronted with all these bet combinations he can possibly make, and sometimes some of them sound mighty clever. Like the doey-don't ... it's sometimes called that, putting a bet on the pass line and the same bet on the don't pass line. I confess I thought it was a good idea when i saw it first years ago, so you could bet the free odds on one side of things "for free" .... nope

So, someone shows you one that looks interesting. Do you need to bleed all over the math to figure out if it is good or not? No. The principle remains that one negative expectation bet cannot cancel another. Each bet has an undefeatable EV and when you combine bets all those EV's get added together.

Quote: odiousgambit

proof: 2.8 cents times 36 equals the one dollar in the simpler case above [with round off error]

Where's a stat expert when you REALLY need one?

Isn't the player making 2 separate bets? 2.8 cents times (2 times 36) equals 1.4, about the same as either betting PL only or betting DP only. (The bad part is that the player must bet 2x as much when betting PL/DP.)

If table limits are higher than a player's comfort level, but s/he still wants to play, can't the player adjust the PL/DP to obtain the desired risk level? For example, not comfortable betting PL at a $25 table? The player can bet slightly more on the PL bet than the DP bet, with very little increase in overall risk.

I understand, many bet "systems" (Marti, etc.) are not smart wagers. IMHO, PL/DP isn't one of them. True, it doesn't "cancel out" the house advantage. However, it doesn't significantly increase the HA either.

Hullo! Miplet! MustangSally! Wiz! Somebody 'splain where I screwed up here, OK?

Quote: LuckyPhow

Quote: odiousgambit

proof: 2.8 cents times 36 equals the one dollar in the simpler case above [with round off error]

Where's a stat expert when you REALLY need one?

Isn't the player making 2 separate bets? 2.8 cents times (2 times 36) equals 1.4, about the same as either betting PL only or betting DP only. (The bad part is that the player must bet 2x as much when betting PL/DP.)

If table limits are higher than a player's comfort level, but s/he still wants to play, can't the player adjust the PL/DP to obtain the desired risk level? For example, not comfortable betting PL at a $25 table? The player can bet slightly more on the PL bet than the DP bet, with very little increase in overall risk.

I understand, many bet "systems" (Marti, etc.) are not smart wagers. IMHO, PL/DP isn't one of them. True, it doesn't "cancel out" the house advantage. However, it doesn't significantly increase the HA either.

Hullo! Miplet! MustangSally! Wiz! Somebody 'splain where I screwed up here, OK?

Passline Value = $1 * 1.41% HE = -$0.0141
Don't Value = $1 * 1.36% = -$0.0136
Combined Value = $-0.0277

$-0.0277 * 36 rolls = $-0.9972

I'm too old school here for this math stuff.

When I go to a craps table and notice the minimum bet is $25.00, I simply bet both sides then add a comfortable amount on top of either side of my choosing thus so I can play without having to break my wallet.

Quote: Laymedown

I'm too old school here for this math stuff.

When I go to a craps table and notice the minimum bet is $25.00, I simply bet both sides then add a comfortable amount on top of either side of my choosing thus so I can play without having to break my wallet.

You are never too old to learn something new.

Quote: Laymedown

I'm too old school here for this math stuff.

When I go to a craps table and notice the minimum bet is $25.00, I simply bet both sides then add a comfortable amount on top of either side of my choosing thus so I can play without having to break my wallet.

So you counter your aversion to the high minimum bet by exposing more money to the house edge. Minimizing the house edge is what most of us try to do, but if playing for playing's sake and reducing the variance floats your boat, then good for you.

Quote: LuckyPhow

Quote: odiousgambit

proof: 2.8 cents times 36 equals the one dollar in the simpler case above [with round off error]

Where's a stat expert when you REALLY need one?

where's somebody who can do some arithmetic? [thanks, gamerfreak]

Quote:

If table limits are higher than a player's comfort level, but s/he still wants to play, can't the player adjust the PL/DP to obtain the desired risk level? For example, not comfortable betting PL at a $25 table? The player can bet slightly more on the PL bet than the DP bet, with very little increase in overall risk.

nope, 25 on the pass line and 15 [say] on the DP equals $40 in action instead of 25, and that's 40 against the same HE. You didn't defeat the minimum bet requirement, you increased it. You could have put that extra 15 on the free odds.

Decreasing variance can be confused with lowering the house edge. Decreasing variance can be something a certain player wants, but the best way to do it is to decrease the free odds bet.

Quote: Laymedown

I'm too old school here for this math stuff.

When I go to a craps table and notice the minimum bet is $25.00, I simply bet both sides then add a comfortable amount on top of either side of my choosing thus so I can play without having to break my wallet.

OK, I can relate. I don't dig $25 tables either. But if I am going to play at one, I don't hedge, I just don't bet as often. The $25 in action once in a while vs $5 in action all the time is actually smarter betting if you keep your total action the same. Yes, it takes discipline.

One thing I often do is only bet come bets, no line bets. This automatically reduces your betting because there are periods when you have to wait.

Quote: gamerfreak

Passline Value = $1 * 1.41% HE = -$0.0141
Don't Value = $1 * 1.36% = -$0.0136
Combined Value = $-0.0277

$-0.0277 * 36 rolls = $-0.9972

I disagree with your math.

You overlook the fact that the PL and DP bets in the Doey-Don't are correlated, generally cancelling one another out. Let's examine what happens when each of the 36 possible dice outcomes occurs one time:

Roll	PL Bet	DP Bet	Total Units Bet	Win/Loss Result
1 - 1	1 unit	1 unit	2 units	+/- Zero
1 - 2	1 unit	1 unit	2 units	+/- Zero
33 rolls...	1 unit	1 unit	2 units	+/- Zero
6 - 6	1 unit	1 unit	2 units	- 1
Totals	36 units	36 units	72 units	- 1

In 35 of the 36 rolls, PL and DP cancel one another, rather than adding to one another. Total loss for the two bets on each of 36 rolls is 1 unit for the 72 units bet, or 1.38% (less than either PL or DP, but at a cost of having to bet twice as much).

If you want the only advantage play available to you, bet odds on someone else's pass line bet.
It's allowed most places. Eventually the pass line better will get a clue. I just find for me, it's poor in the spirit of playing the game.

I stay off the dark side because I play max odds on my point and can't stomach 6X on a Don't.


I encounter (NOT used by me) a similar technique to your "lower the limit strategy" on the Mini Bac tables at Fallsview. Hedging a $30 bet on Banker with a $25 Player bet. Or $25 on each just to drop $5 or 10 on the Panda8 or Dragon7 side bets. Worse is the guys wanting to ride along with $5 on another player's bet. I tolerate it and sometimes humor the ladies wanting to "bet on the lucky white guy". It's a different vibe then the Craps Pit so I think of it as added entertainment. Recently a guy (old, smelly, non-asian) on the far right had $300 on Player. A half asleep asian fellow slumped over the rail on a stool way over to the left thew a $5 chip across the felt and pantomimed with his hands "Can I bet on you?". The big better flipped out and started ranting about "these losers with baby bets. I come here to GAMBLE. What's this A-hole doing here ferchistsakes?!!" He got all hot and heavy shouting across the table, with me having to lean wayyy back to avoid going deaf in my right ear. He pulled his $300 off and fumed. Cards dealt a Player win which made him stomp off in a huff. He was still in a fuss when I was walking out to the cage, trying to engage me in his anger. I gave him the old "roll your eyes" and "whatya gonna do?" look and kept walking. The sleepy guy had been there with me at the start of the shoe; dealers and other patrons acted as if this was his regular modus operandi.

...not trying to hijack the thread for Bac. Craps is still my #1 form of legal drug.

It's ok it's very similar to craps. I can totally see the frustration if someone asked me to place a bet for them on my stack.
I can also see a reasoning for betting both sides for the purpose of playing the dragon bet. I see couples at baccarat betting both sides just so they can each play dragon bets.

HornHighYo11, have you ever played at the Brantford casino? Are you a baccarat dealer at fallsview?

Quote: HornHighYo11

If you want the only advantage play available to you, bet odds on someone else's pass line bet...

That's not an advantage play either. Now if this bet paid better than true odds, then it would be an advantage play.

Ok. I agree "advantage" was a stretch since it won't be +EV.

And NO two both questions. Not a dealer and have yet to visit Brantford Casino. Some day, since it's 15 min closer...