Is card counting a betting system?
February 17th, 2014 at 2:31:13 PM
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Is card counting technically a betting system?
From my understanding a basic definition of a betting system is adjusting your bets based on previous events.
Card Counting is the process of adjusting or not adjusting your bet based on the cards that exit the shoe so I would argue based on the technical definition it would be considered a betting system.
Would anyone on here agree with this?
Also, in case you are wondering why I ask, I got into a debate the other night and attempted to argue that counting is a betting system, so I was hoping somebody on here would validate my view (also I am very aware of the differences between counting and adjusting bets based purely on bets won or lost. I am arguing strictly from a definitional point of view)?
From my understanding a basic definition of a betting system is adjusting your bets based on previous events.
Card Counting is the process of adjusting or not adjusting your bet based on the cards that exit the shoe so I would argue based on the technical definition it would be considered a betting system.
Would anyone on here agree with this?
Also, in case you are wondering why I ask, I got into a debate the other night and attempted to argue that counting is a betting system, so I was hoping somebody on here would validate my view (also I am very aware of the differences between counting and adjusting bets based purely on bets won or lost. I am arguing strictly from a definitional point of view)?
February 17th, 2014 at 2:35:06 PM
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Counting cards can provide information to be used in both betting decisions and playing decisions. In shoe games especially, advantages from proper betting far outweigh the advantages from playing deviations.
I would call card counting a hybrid betting/playing system.
I would call card counting a hybrid betting/playing system.
February 17th, 2014 at 2:52:41 PM
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A betting system is varying your bet size based on previous events. Card counting is varying your bet size based on the present state of the cards. That's the difference.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
February 17th, 2014 at 3:06:20 PM
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Quote: 24BingoA betting system is varying your bet size based on previous events. Card counting is varying your bet size based on the present state of the cards. That's the difference.
Right, but that is based on previous events. The only reason there is a present state is because of what exited the shoe?
February 17th, 2014 at 3:21:55 PM
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Quote: GandlerIs card counting technically a betting system?
From my understanding a basic definition of a betting system is adjusting your bets based on previous events.
Nope, not at all. Here, "previous events" means previous bet outcomes, not any arbitrary thing that happened in the past. A betting system calculates the amount of the next bet based on some function of the outcome of one or more prior bets. Card counting calculates the amount of the next bet based on the estimated deck distribution and associated house or player edge (estimated via the count). The count of a remaining blackjack shoe is effectively independent of whether the previous hand won or lost.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 17th, 2014 at 3:29:50 PM
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Wikipedia agrees with you Gandler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betting_Systems
(Card counting is listed as an example of a well-known betting system.)
I agree that if you define the term broadly enough, it would seem to include card counting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betting_Systems
(Card counting is listed as an example of a well-known betting system.)
I agree that if you define the term broadly enough, it would seem to include card counting.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
February 17th, 2014 at 3:38:20 PM
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Quote: gpac1377Wikipedia agrees with you Gandler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betting_Systems
(Card counting is listed as an example of a well-known betting system.)
I agree that if you define the term broadly enough, it would seem to include card counting.
It also says "A betting strategy or betting system is a structured approach to gambling intended to counter the inherent house edge in casino and card games," and then lists "Roulette - Martingale."
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 17th, 2014 at 3:52:47 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistIt also says "A betting strategy or betting system is a structured approach to gambling intended to counter the inherent house edge in casino and card games," and then lists "Roulette - Martingale."
LOLwikipedia :)
I think "betting system" is an unavoidably ambiguous term, so I declare everyone in this thread correct, except myself.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
February 17th, 2014 at 3:55:01 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 17th, 2014 at 4:15:08 PM
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Quote: gpac1377LOLwikipedia :)
I think "betting system" is an unavoidably ambiguous term, so I declare everyone in this thread correct, except myself.
I like the phrase "insolubly ambiguous" myself.
http://patentlyo.com/patent/2005/08/claims_definite.html
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 17th, 2014 at 4:22:08 PM
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It'd be more accurate to say within a card counting system there exists a betting structure. It's not all betting, there's which system (hilo, halves, zen, KO..) you're using, indices, departures, and spread.
February 17th, 2014 at 4:26:02 PM
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Its a method. The knowledge of Proper Play Strategy coupled with Proper Betting Strategy, based upon advantage or disadvantage produces an informed "Best Decision" that may lead to an overall Player Advantage. I would also argue that certain Side-Bets are also subject to an informed Play Strategy, even those with rather high House advantage.
A system presumes a Betting Strategy only without regard to a Play Strategy. This is why Roulette, Baccarat, and Craps are three of the more popular "System" games. Blackjack OTOH, even with Basic Strategy has situations involving a doubled wager (more if splitting pairs). Blackjack "needs" a Playing Strategy dependent upon initial hand received. In Baccarat, the decision is by fixed rule removing Player obligation, and Craps is a choice to wager more or not win, lose, or continue. Roulette is "pure" system, one spin per decision.
A system presumes a Betting Strategy only without regard to a Play Strategy. This is why Roulette, Baccarat, and Craps are three of the more popular "System" games. Blackjack OTOH, even with Basic Strategy has situations involving a doubled wager (more if splitting pairs). Blackjack "needs" a Playing Strategy dependent upon initial hand received. In Baccarat, the decision is by fixed rule removing Player obligation, and Craps is a choice to wager more or not win, lose, or continue. Roulette is "pure" system, one spin per decision.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
February 17th, 2014 at 10:25:03 PM
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Quote: GandlerRight, but that is based on previous events. The only reason there is a present state is because of what exited the shoe?
The only reason there's a shoe there is because someone put it there, because someone opened a casino on that spot. The point of our derision of "betting systems" is that they're based on the events themselves, with the consequences only the product of some brand of magical thinking or other (usually either personification or the gambler's fallacy).
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
February 17th, 2014 at 10:55:34 PM
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You can make a case either way as we have seen. Keep in mind that, while most of us use the info from card counting to both alter our wagering and play, there are some that only use the count for only wagering purposes and just play basic strategy. There are also a few instances and it was more in days of yesteryear when there were deeply dealt single deck games, where players flat bet and only used the info from count to only alter play.
But I think it is fair to say if you are altering wagers based on the count, that is a betting system.
But I think it is fair to say if you are altering wagers based on the count, that is a betting system.
February 18th, 2014 at 12:29:31 AM
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Could "counting cards" be classified as a "betting system"?
The true linguist with no experience pertaining to gambling might say, "OK, if I count 200 cards out of 312, that leaves 112 cards. Tell me what I should bet."
(Yes, I previously debated with someone about this subject, and that was the response I received.)
The distinguishing factor which separates counting from other systems used to determine size of the wager (or even mere placement of a wager) is the fact that the purpose of counting is to determine the existence of player advantage.
With counting, one has the ability to determine if probability favors the dealer or the player prior to placement of the wager, whereas other betting systems tend to rely on history of previous outcomes (wins/losses) to determine the amount of the next wager with no consideration for probability.
Define it as you wish.
In today's industry, the counter will be segregated from all other "betting system" players.
The casinos worry about the counter; they do not sweat the other "betting systems".
On this very site, you could start a thread about counting in the Blackjack forum (or whatever other game is being discussed), and everything will be fine. If you discuss any system which disregards probability, it should rightfully be discussed in the Betting Systems forum.
The true linguist with no experience pertaining to gambling might say, "OK, if I count 200 cards out of 312, that leaves 112 cards. Tell me what I should bet."
(Yes, I previously debated with someone about this subject, and that was the response I received.)
The distinguishing factor which separates counting from other systems used to determine size of the wager (or even mere placement of a wager) is the fact that the purpose of counting is to determine the existence of player advantage.
With counting, one has the ability to determine if probability favors the dealer or the player prior to placement of the wager, whereas other betting systems tend to rely on history of previous outcomes (wins/losses) to determine the amount of the next wager with no consideration for probability.
Define it as you wish.
In today's industry, the counter will be segregated from all other "betting system" players.
The casinos worry about the counter; they do not sweat the other "betting systems".
On this very site, you could start a thread about counting in the Blackjack forum (or whatever other game is being discussed), and everything will be fine. If you discuss any system which disregards probability, it should rightfully be discussed in the Betting Systems forum.
