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Mukke
Mukke
Joined: Mar 24, 2019
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March 15th, 2021 at 5:01:21 PM permalink
Hi Guys,

I've been trying to find the answer to this question for the longest time, but I can't, so throwing it out here in case someone else can enlighten me.

How does the TLS allow for persistent state slots like Icy Wilds to produce "guaranteed outcomes" on future spins?

In general, I would love to read up more on how the Tribal Lottery System works - both functionally/practically and from a technical point of view. Is there any documentation about this out there?

I feel every site pretty much regurgitates the same stuff around Class II vs Class III with the WA TLS system sometimes added in there, but I still never see anything that explains how persistent state is possible with the current setup in WA. What am I missing?

Thanks!
heatmap
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March 15th, 2021 at 6:00:21 PM permalink
idk if this will be resolved... i hope it will tbh and the reason i say that is because it is most likely so specific that no one will know

now that im refreshing my memory on washington - the lottery in general works on - i think a very simple premise

you generate a specific amount of results all random

i think you can then evaluate the results

if the results dont come out to the specific amounts that you want - you can go back and correct those result to the desired results that you want

thats probably the most basic - obviously less moral method i could think about but morality doesnt matter in RNG

i am nearly sure (lets say 50%) that scientific gaming (aka the parent company of shuffle master) generates their lottery results like this

you will have to confirm these facts for yourself because as of this point ive been drinking and am not sure of myself (its my bday woops)
DRich
DRich
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heatmap
March 15th, 2021 at 6:54:42 PM permalink
I always think of the Washington method as a barrel where all of the possible results are placed in the barrel and they know the exact return based on what numbers are in the barrel. For each spin a result is pulled from the barrel and displayed on the screen. If you draw until the barrel is empty the exact expected return is achieved.

I have never seen exactly how "must hits" are implemented in this system.
Order from chaos
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March 16th, 2021 at 2:44:34 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I always think of the Washington method as a barrel where all of the possible results are placed in the barrel and they know the exact return based on what numbers are in the barrel. For each spin a result is pulled from the barrel and displayed on the screen. If you draw until the barrel is empty the exact expected return is achieved.

I have never seen exactly how "must hits" are implemented in this system.



this guy knows

but - how does it decide the type of prize - is it like you stick a lump sum of say 20k in there and the internal process divides that up into as many prizes as possible or something?

because obviously there are different denominations of prizes or is it that you fill up the type of prizes or
Mukke
Mukke
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:05:51 PM permalink
Basically the way I see it there are 2 challenges with how I understand the "lottery system" to work.

Different machines have different possible payouts. And different machines have different "distributions" - Some machines may pay a lot of smaller pays, and a few large pays, while other machines have less frequent pays but more substantial pays. And anywhere between. If the "barrel" is filled with exact pays, how does that support this? If the barrel says "win 2 cent", that is incompatible with a machine that has a minimum payout of 5 cent? And if a barrel has 100 winners from 200 tickets, with 90 of those winners being < bet size, how does that work for a machine that only pays out (on average) every 10s spin, but most pays are > bet size?

And to the original question: How does the drawing from the barrel work, if I'm about to push play on a machine where I know that I will, at minimum win 10x bet size on the next play?

All this basically just shows that the barrel analogy is fundamentally wrong and not at all useful. So why does it keep getting regurgitated?
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:11:32 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

barrel analogy



not an anology, this man programmed them and thats how he is describing it

also with lottery i dont think i would assume its being "averaged" out you get what you get at random
smoothgrh
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:27:32 PM permalink
This photo probably won't help, but I'm putting it out here in case it does:

CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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March 16th, 2021 at 7:16:11 PM permalink
One game can have many drums. One drum for 1 line, one for 3 line, one for 5 line, etc. Let's say a set of tickets has 20000 outcomes. You can put many sets of those tickets in the drum all at once, and you can replenish the drum with more sets of tickets if it falls to a certain level.

The game gets delivered a predetermined award from the drum and the machine can choose any which way it wants to display that win amount.

Also, Washington permits two types of gaming. One is like this and the other is Class II bingo. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Washington has must hit bys or variable state machines. I took a look at Washington's Ocean Magic, and it is not the same as the Class III game.
I heart Crystal Math.
DRich
DRich
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March 16th, 2021 at 7:27:41 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Basically the way I see it there are 2 challenges with how I understand the "lottery system" to work.

Different machines have different possible payouts. And different machines have different "distributions" - Some machines may pay a lot of smaller pays, and a few large pays, while other machines have less frequent pays but more substantial pays. And anywhere between. If the "barrel" is filled with exact pays, how does that support this? If the barrel says "win 2 cent", that is incompatible with a machine that has a minimum payout of 5 cent? And if a barrel has 100 winners from 200 tickets, with 90 of those winners being < bet size, how does that work for a machine that only pays out (on average) every 10s spin, but most pays are > bet size?

And to the original question: How does the drawing from the barrel work, if I'm about to push play on a machine where I know that I will, at minimum win 10x bet size on the next play?

All this basically just shows that the barrel analogy is fundamentally wrong and not at all useful. So why does it keep getting regurgitated?



CrystalMath hit it on the head. The bet amount determines which drum the result is picked from. Think of every different bet amount as a separate game. Even in Class III it works that way that different bet amounts can have different payback percentages.
Order from chaos
Mukke
Mukke
Joined: Mar 24, 2019
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Mission146
March 17th, 2021 at 7:30:27 AM permalink
Quote:

Also, Washington permits two types of gaming. One is like this and the other is Class II bingo. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Washington has must hit bys or variable state machines.



I've never seen Must Hit BYs but there's a plethora of variable state machines. Icy Wilds is one example, but there are plenty much more "interesting" ones. Send me a PM if you want more details. For this reason It's always puzzled my mind that Ocean Magic (and Dragonsphere) specifically does NOT actually exhibit the same potential as their Vegas counterparts.

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