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Mukke
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March 15th, 2021 at 5:01:21 PM permalink
Hi Guys,

I've been trying to find the answer to this question for the longest time, but I can't, so throwing it out here in case someone else can enlighten me.

How does the TLS allow for persistent state slots like Icy Wilds to produce "guaranteed outcomes" on future spins?

In general, I would love to read up more on how the Tribal Lottery System works - both functionally/practically and from a technical point of view. Is there any documentation about this out there?

I feel every site pretty much regurgitates the same stuff around Class II vs Class III with the WA TLS system sometimes added in there, but I still never see anything that explains how persistent state is possible with the current setup in WA. What am I missing?

Thanks!
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March 15th, 2021 at 6:00:21 PM permalink
idk if this will be resolved... i hope it will tbh and the reason i say that is because it is most likely so specific that no one will know

now that im refreshing my memory on washington - the lottery in general works on - i think a very simple premise

you generate a specific amount of results all random

i think you can then evaluate the results

if the results dont come out to the specific amounts that you want - you can go back and correct those result to the desired results that you want

thats probably the most basic - obviously less moral method i could think about but morality doesnt matter in RNG

i am nearly sure (lets say 50%) that scientific gaming (aka the parent company of shuffle master) generates their lottery results like this

you will have to confirm these facts for yourself because as of this point ive been drinking and am not sure of myself (its my bday woops)
DRich
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March 15th, 2021 at 6:54:42 PM permalink
I always think of the Washington method as a barrel where all of the possible results are placed in the barrel and they know the exact return based on what numbers are in the barrel. For each spin a result is pulled from the barrel and displayed on the screen. If you draw until the barrel is empty the exact expected return is achieved.

I have never seen exactly how "must hits" are implemented in this system.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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March 16th, 2021 at 2:44:34 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I always think of the Washington method as a barrel where all of the possible results are placed in the barrel and they know the exact return based on what numbers are in the barrel. For each spin a result is pulled from the barrel and displayed on the screen. If you draw until the barrel is empty the exact expected return is achieved.

I have never seen exactly how "must hits" are implemented in this system.



this guy knows

but - how does it decide the type of prize - is it like you stick a lump sum of say 20k in there and the internal process divides that up into as many prizes as possible or something?

because obviously there are different denominations of prizes or is it that you fill up the type of prizes or
Mukke
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:05:51 PM permalink
Basically the way I see it there are 2 challenges with how I understand the "lottery system" to work.

Different machines have different possible payouts. And different machines have different "distributions" - Some machines may pay a lot of smaller pays, and a few large pays, while other machines have less frequent pays but more substantial pays. And anywhere between. If the "barrel" is filled with exact pays, how does that support this? If the barrel says "win 2 cent", that is incompatible with a machine that has a minimum payout of 5 cent? And if a barrel has 100 winners from 200 tickets, with 90 of those winners being < bet size, how does that work for a machine that only pays out (on average) every 10s spin, but most pays are > bet size?

And to the original question: How does the drawing from the barrel work, if I'm about to push play on a machine where I know that I will, at minimum win 10x bet size on the next play?

All this basically just shows that the barrel analogy is fundamentally wrong and not at all useful. So why does it keep getting regurgitated?
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:11:32 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

barrel analogy



not an anology, this man programmed them and thats how he is describing it

also with lottery i dont think i would assume its being "averaged" out you get what you get at random
smoothgrh
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March 16th, 2021 at 3:27:32 PM permalink
This photo probably won't help, but I'm putting it out here in case it does:

CrystalMath
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March 16th, 2021 at 7:16:11 PM permalink
One game can have many drums. One drum for 1 line, one for 3 line, one for 5 line, etc. Let's say a set of tickets has 20000 outcomes. You can put many sets of those tickets in the drum all at once, and you can replenish the drum with more sets of tickets if it falls to a certain level.

The game gets delivered a predetermined award from the drum and the machine can choose any which way it wants to display that win amount.

Also, Washington permits two types of gaming. One is like this and the other is Class II bingo. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Washington has must hit bys or variable state machines. I took a look at Washington's Ocean Magic, and it is not the same as the Class III game.
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March 16th, 2021 at 7:27:41 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Basically the way I see it there are 2 challenges with how I understand the "lottery system" to work.

Different machines have different possible payouts. And different machines have different "distributions" - Some machines may pay a lot of smaller pays, and a few large pays, while other machines have less frequent pays but more substantial pays. And anywhere between. If the "barrel" is filled with exact pays, how does that support this? If the barrel says "win 2 cent", that is incompatible with a machine that has a minimum payout of 5 cent? And if a barrel has 100 winners from 200 tickets, with 90 of those winners being < bet size, how does that work for a machine that only pays out (on average) every 10s spin, but most pays are > bet size?

And to the original question: How does the drawing from the barrel work, if I'm about to push play on a machine where I know that I will, at minimum win 10x bet size on the next play?

All this basically just shows that the barrel analogy is fundamentally wrong and not at all useful. So why does it keep getting regurgitated?



CrystalMath hit it on the head. The bet amount determines which drum the result is picked from. Think of every different bet amount as a separate game. Even in Class III it works that way that different bet amounts can have different payback percentages.
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Mukke
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March 17th, 2021 at 7:30:27 AM permalink
Quote:

Also, Washington permits two types of gaming. One is like this and the other is Class II bingo. Because of this, I seriously doubt that Washington has must hit bys or variable state machines.



I've never seen Must Hit BYs but there's a plethora of variable state machines. Icy Wilds is one example, but there are plenty much more "interesting" ones. Send me a PM if you want more details. For this reason It's always puzzled my mind that Ocean Magic (and Dragonsphere) specifically does NOT actually exhibit the same potential as their Vegas counterparts.
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March 17th, 2021 at 10:53:28 AM permalink
on class 3 you said its like playing a different game - so if i were to guess how to implement different paybacks - i might do something like have DIFFERENT reels? or maybe just RECONFIGURE the reels i already use that i know dont pay back or pay more over time?
Mission146
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March 17th, 2021 at 11:46:39 AM permalink
Quote: Mukke

I've never seen Must Hit BYs but there's a plethora of variable state machines. Icy Wilds is one example, but there are plenty much more "interesting" ones. Send me a PM if you want more details. For this reason It's always puzzled my mind that Ocean Magic (and Dragonsphere) specifically does NOT actually exhibit the same potential as their Vegas counterparts.



I don't see how Variable-State machines would prevent a result from a pool of results from being chosen. In the case of possible Icy Wilds wild reel configurations, for example, the machine would simply have to select a winning result from the pool of results that visually corresponds to at least the lowest possible payout based on the reels that are wild.

(For those unfamiliar, any two wild reels adjacent to one another on the Icy Wilds machines I have played would automatically be some sort of winner, the worst case scenario is that you win 5x the amount that you bet if there are no additional winners and the spin doesn't improve your position. The reason why is because the wild reels then behave as the ice princess, two of which adjacent on a line win anywhere. If Reels 1&2 or 2&3, then the win would be something better than this unless you had a stack of Free Games symbol on the other of the first three reels and did not end up hitting Free Games.).

Here's a little bit of game operations information pursuant to the compact with the Cowlitz Indian Tribe:

https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/searchable-compacts/cowlitz/6-2014%20Compact%20%28s%29.pdf

Quote:

SECTION 3. TRIBAL ELECTRONIC SCRATCH TICKET LOTTERY GAME

SYSTEM

3.1 Description of System Operation

3.1.1 The Tribal Lottery System game known as the Electronic Scratch Ticket Game consists of a finite number of Electronic Scratch Tickets, a certain number of which, if

drawn, entitle a player to prize awards at various levels. The scratch tickets are designed from a template in conformity with this Appendix and are created in Game Sets on a Manufacturing Computer from which Scratch Tickets are randomly selected and placed into Scratch Ticket Subsets. Each Game Set has a predetermined number of winners and values and is designed so as to assure players of an at least 75% payback of the amounts paid in the aggregate for all Cowlitz Indian Tribe Appendix X2 Page 4 tickets in the Set. As a Game Setís tickets are placed into Subsets, the pool of tickets available from that Game Set for placement into Subsets diminishes, until each ticket in the Game Set has been placed into a Subset.

3.1.2 Scratch Ticket Subsets are transmitted to the Central Computer, where they are stored until dispensed electronically on demand to Player Terminals. Scratch Tickets are electronically dispensed from the Central Computer in the order within each Subset in which the tickets were received. Players compete against each other to draw winning tickets. As Subsets are used they are replaced by additional Subsets which have been created and delivered to the Central Computer in the same manner, until the Game Set has been depleted, or pulled from play, ending that particular game. Different games based on different Game Sets may be offered simultaneously through the Central Computer.

3.1.3 A player initiates participation in an Electronic Scratch Ticket game at a
Player Terminal, using Game Play Credits purchased on the Player Terminal through the
insertion of cash, or through the Cashless Transaction System. The monitor displays one or
more of the Electronic Scratch Ticket games that are offered by the system, as well as other
information such as graphics, game play and outcome information, and entertainment effects,
subject to the limitations in Sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.3. The player may choose a particular game
and reveal the outcome, by touching the screen, pressing a button once or performing some other
form of interaction with the Player Terminal.



Also relevant:

Quote:

3.2.2 Game Set Verification Process. Prior to commencement of play, the
initial Game Set shall be verified as to the total number of tickets in the set and the number of
Cowlitz Indian Tribe Appendix X2 Page 6
winners at each prize level, including the amounts of such prizes, and the number of
non-winners. The verification standards which the Game Set must meet are those set forth in
Section 3.3.

3.2.3 Transmission of Subsets to Central Computer. Following verification of
the Game Set, the Manufacturing Computer shall create ordered Scratch Ticket Subsets on
demand from the Central Computer and transmit the ordered Subsets to it.

3.2.4 Subset Requirements. Each Electronic Scratch Ticket Game Subset shall
meet the following minimum requirements:
a. Within a given Game Set, each Subset shall be the same size and
comprised of no less than 5,000, and no more than 10,000
Electronic Scratch Tickets, provided that in order to complete the
distribution of all tickets in a Game Set, the final Subset derived
from the Set may have less than the number of tickets in any other
Subset and be less than 5,000;
b. Each Subset shall be individually and uniquely identified by the
Game Set serial number and a unique serial number for each
Subset assigned in the order in which the Subsets are created;
c. Once an Electronic Scratch Ticket has been dispensed to a Player
Terminal from a Subset, it cannot be dispensed again.



The game sets to contain:

Quote:

3.3.1 A unique identifying Game Set serial number;
3.3.2 A description of the Game Set theme sufficient to categorize the Game
Set relative to other Game Sets;
3.3.3 The number of total Scratch Tickets in the Game Set;
3.3.4 The number of Scratch Ticket Subsets to be created from the Game Set,
and the number of tickets in each Set;
3.3.5 The payout percentage of the entire Game Set;
3.3.6 The payout table for the Game Set and the number of Scratch Tickets at
each level of the payout table;
3.3.7 The purchase price per ticket assigned to the Game Set;
3.3.8 Such further information as the SGA may reasonably require to assure
the integrity and accuracy of the foregoing information.



Okay, so what does the manufacturing computer responsible for game sets do? Relevantly:

Quote:

3.7.2 Primary Purpose; Separation. The Manufacturing Computer shall be
dedicated primarily to those Tribal Electronic Scratch Ticket gaming system functions related to
the creation of Scratch Ticket Game Sets and the creation, randomization, and transmittal to the
Central Computer of Scratch Ticket Subsets. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Manufacturing
Cowlitz Indian Tribe Appendix X2 Page 10
Computer may also be used for other computer functions in the Tribal Lottery System or
Electronic Accounting System if such use will not affect the integrity or outcome of any game.

3.7.4 Randomization. The Manufacturing Computer shall utilize randomizing
procedures in the creation of the Subsets. The randomizing procedures shall be in accordance
with Section 6 of this Appendix.



The central computer then distributes results:

Quote:

3.8 Central Computer Used in Connection With Electronic Scratch Ticket Game. The
following requirements apply to any Central Computer used in connection with an Electronic
Scratch Ticket Game.
3.8.1 Dispensing of Tickets. The Central Computer shall dispense, upon
request from a Player Terminal, Electronic Scratch Tickets.
3.8.2 Order of Scratch Tickets. The Central Computer shall maintain
Electronic Scratch Ticket Subsets in the order received from the Manufacturing Computer, and
transmit them in that order to Player Terminals on demand, provided that not less than two (2)
nor more than five (5) Subsets per Game Set shall be dispensed in accordance with a
predetermined order for rotating the Subsets. Subsets from more than one Game Set may be
stored on the Central Computer and made available for play at the same time.



Okay...well that's sure a mess.

What I can gather from it, and hopefully DRich knows and can correct me if I am wrong, is that the Manufacturing Computer creates subsets of spins (each subset must contain anywhere from 5,000-10,000 spins and all be of equal size---except the last subset to complete the game set is permitted to have fewer spins) which is then collected into what is called a Game Set and is then distributed to the Central Computer. The Central Computer then releases the, "Tickets," in the order that they were received from the manufacturing computer...so that means it's producing the results in the order that the Manufacturing Computer has already decided.

For return-to-player purposes, no game set is permitted to return less than 75%. That may sound pretty bad, but technically, that's also the minimum return for an electronic gaming device in Nevada.

So, for Icy Wilds, you might have something like this:

Terminal A Spin 1: Loses, no stacks.

Terminal A Spin 2: Loses, stacks symbol on Reel 1.

Terminal A Spin 3: Wins $5, Stacks Princess on Reel 2, no other wins, no other stacks.

How would this be accomplished?

I don't know how it is done, but it seems at least conceivable that you could literally just tell the Manufacturing Computer to play five sets each of 5,000 spins of Icy Wilds. The Manufacturing Computer plays the five sets of 5,000 thereby creating a game set of 25,000, the Manufacturing Computer ensures that the Game Set of 25,000 games will return to the player at least 75% and then the Manufacturing Computer transmits the Game Set to the Central Computer which then plays it out as the player makes plays.

Again, I don't know, but it seems like you could do it that way.
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March 17th, 2021 at 12:38:04 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I don't see how Variable-State machines would prevent a result from a pool of results from being chosen. In the case of possible Icy Wilds wild reel configurations, for example, the machine would simply have to select a winning result from the pool of results that visually corresponds to at least the lowest possible payout based on the reels that are wild.

(For those unfamiliar, any two wild reels adjacent to one another on the Icy Wilds machines I have played would automatically be some sort of winner, the worst case scenario is that you win 5x the amount that you bet if there are no additional winners and the spin doesn't improve your position. The reason why is because the wild reels then behave as the ice princess, two of which adjacent on a line win anywhere. If Reels 1&2 or 2&3, then the win would be something better than this unless you had a stack of Free Games symbol on the other of the first three reels and did not end up hitting Free Games.).

Here's a little bit of game operations information pursuant to the compact with the Cowlitz Indian Tribe:

https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/searchable-compacts/cowlitz/6-2014%20Compact%20%28s%29.pdf



Also relevant:



The game sets to contain:



Okay, so what does the manufacturing computer responsible for game sets do? Relevantly:



The central computer then distributes results:



Okay...well that's sure a mess.

What I can gather from it, and hopefully DRich knows and can correct me if I am wrong, is that the Manufacturing Computer creates subsets of spins (each subset must contain anywhere from 5,000-10,000 spins and all be of equal size---except the last subset to complete the game set is permitted to have fewer spins) which is then collected into what is called a Game Set and is then distributed to the Central Computer. The Central Computer then releases the, "Tickets," in the order that they were received from the manufacturing computer...so that means it's producing the results in the order that the Manufacturing Computer has already decided.

For return-to-player purposes, no game set is permitted to return less than 75%. That may sound pretty bad, but technically, that's also the minimum return for an electronic gaming device in Nevada.

So, for Icy Wilds, you might have something like this:

Terminal A Spin 1: Loses, no stacks.

Terminal A Spin 2: Loses, stacks symbol on Reel 1.

Terminal A Spin 3: Wins $5, Stacks Princess on Reel 2, no other wins, no other stacks.

How would this be accomplished?

I don't know how it is done, but it seems at least conceivable that you could literally just tell the Manufacturing Computer to play five sets each of 5,000 spins of Icy Wilds. The Manufacturing Computer plays the five sets of 5,000 thereby creating a game set of 25,000, the Manufacturing Computer ensures that the Game Set of 25,000 games will return to the player at least 75% and then the Manufacturing Computer transmits the Game Set to the Central Computer which then plays it out as the player makes plays.

Again, I don't know, but it seems like you could do it that way.



I think what you said kind of what I said because itís most likely very difficult time wise to hand generate a percentage of winning results within a random set of numbers so you would rather generate the numbers and then check to make sure they are at the correct payback and if not go back and either add or remove winners from a specific pool

Once again all something Iím trying to recall from a patent I canít seem to find right now
Mission146
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March 17th, 2021 at 12:54:35 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I think what you said kind of what I said because itís most likely very difficult time wise to hand generate a percentage of winning results within a random set of numbers so you would rather generate the numbers and then check to make sure they are at the correct payback and if not go back and either add or remove winners from a specific pool

Once again all something Iím trying to recall from a patent I canít seem to find right now



Exactly, and I tend to think that they, "Normally," would, assuming the game set is large enough of a sample.
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March 17th, 2021 at 4:35:18 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Exactly, and I tend to think that they, "Normally," would, assuming the game set is large enough of a sample.



Not sure if this has anything to do with it but in Pennsylvania the video gaming terminal laws state that the machines canít make a decision about wins or losses based on the internal hold percentage - so I would assume that if that law is not in this state weíre speaking about that - maybe it is all based on that because I think from that we could go on to actually dividing a lump sum of money up into the particular prizes

Once again speculation
DRich
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March 17th, 2021 at 5:05:01 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Not sure if this has anything to do with it but in Pennsylvania the video gaming terminal laws state that the machines canít make a decision about wins or losses based on the internal hold percentage - so I would assume that if that law is not in this state weíre speaking about that - maybe it is all based on that because I think from that we could go on to actually dividing a lump sum of money up into the particular prizes

Once again speculation



I don't believe Washington allows that either.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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