AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 14th, 2017 at 10:22:00 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

you've just described what you don't seem to mind having to do, but what would have me hating life. The damage it would do to my soul would even be worse; I'd be waking up in the morning plotting how I could get even - that's after they agreed with me too.

Oh, trust me it wasn't fun, but it was a significant amount, anything less and I probably would have just let it go. They basically said I was lying about how much I lost, even after I showed them how their machine was miscalculating. If not for the camera I would have been SOL. They did apologize and hooked me up with some nice food comps and free rooms.

Most people probably wouldn't have noticed the card reader was acting funny, only to find out later when they didn't get anything. I doubt they would go to the cameras at that point.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Puckerbutt
Puckerbutt
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July 14th, 2017 at 10:56:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Even the average person must realize there has to be a catch. They can't really believe the casinos are going to let you gamble, lose and just give you all your money back without some kind of catch


Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 3:06:41 PM permalink
Quote: Actuarial

I e-mailed the player's club supervisor there and this is her response:

"You can be reimbursed on your losses at the tables and or at the slot machines up to $500. Total. It does round down to the nearest $50. It does take 3-6 weeks to be notified of when to come back and play. The reimbursement will be in the form of free slot play and or free bets for the table games."



I don't see where it says the reimbursement comes all at once, so I wouldn't assume that, because it typically doesn't.
Vultures can't be choosers.
DRich
DRich
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146
July 14th, 2017 at 4:08:16 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I don't see where it says the reimbursement comes all at once, so I wouldn't assume that, because it typically doesn't.



I believe it is in two installments.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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July 14th, 2017 at 5:38:20 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I believe it is in two installments.



You can't get that in writing I bet. If you live near the casino it doesn't matter so much.
"Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed." .......... Mark Twain
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 6:00:50 PM permalink
I would say two installments makes sense if they round down to the nearest multiple of $50 if less than $500 is lost.

That's why I couldn't figure it out on one I did (that also happened to be $500) when they told me three installments. How the Hell does that work out? $166.66, $166.66 + $166.67? Of course not, it was four installments, someone else told me two. I got it all at once anyway after several phone calls made after the fact that it didn't hit when it was supposed to, and then REALLY didn't hit when it was supposed to. That took some minor griping to get, but nothing too over the top.

Mileage will vary. I've seen it work exactly how they said it would at other places.

I do say only believe what's in writing, ask two people, get two different answers...almost invariably. Ask five people and, if three of them agree, there's probably about a 50% chance that is what it is.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 6:12:42 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Loss rebates for the average person are a scam because they're often not followed through on, the check is in the mail kind of thing. Vague terms are a huge red flag. Mission's experience for example, seemed from his article, he had to put in about ten hours of pulling teeth to get his free play.



Was it only ten?

I don't know that they are a scam, I think some casinos just do them better than others. I've talked to multiple people who did it at the same casino I did and none of them had the same extent of problems that I did. I think there were a couple of people for whom the free play started hitting later than it was supposed to, but it was nothing too egregious.

Quote:

If you're a new member, or a noncustomer for some time, you'll get good free play offers from many casinos anyways win or lose, without a loss rebate. I suppose that is another fine point, a person may get a loss rebate, but best as I can tell, not get free play besides that like the regular customers do.

Vagueness is the key, if a casino clearly stated when the rebate is applied and in how many installments upfront, that's a good offer. People don't have time sending 40 emails, calling ten times, talking to twenty people.



I agree with your first paragraph, especially if one intends to play the Loss Rebate close to optimally. Generally speaking, you're not going to run a bunch of coin-in when doing a Loss Rebate (if you're doing it right), so you won't get that much in the way of offers if the location is generally based on coin-in. I guess my question would be what is the value of comps that you expect to get with your normal amount of coin-in? Does the expectation on that (in terms of value) exceed the value that you are going to get on the loss rebate? Do you know whether or not it does for sure?

Loss Rebates are generally going to result in a high proportion of Free Play as compared to your coin-in if you lose on the rebate, so yeah, don't be expecting to see any offers for awhile. Your ADT is going to be in the toilet.

What they, "Clearly state," and what actually happens can still be two different things, but yes, that improves the likelihood of a favorable experience.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Actuarial
Actuarial
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July 14th, 2017 at 6:16:11 PM permalink
For those wondering - the terms seem pretty straight-forward on the website:

http://www.argosykansascity.com/Promotions/Play-500-On-Us

2 offers with separate dates, rounded down to the nearest $50
Mission146
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Mission146
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monet0412odiousgambit
July 14th, 2017 at 6:53:51 PM permalink
Here are a few tips I have for Loss Rebates:

1a.) The absolute best way to play a Loss Rebate is (redacted).

1b.) The second best way to play a Loss Rebate is (redacted).

1c.) If you are not aware of 1a or 1b, then I would say that you want to make Variance your friend. Make the biggest bets that you can in the hopes of hitting something huge (relative to bet level). You can look at what Wizard has for Double Diamond:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/slots/loss-rebate/

I would say that you could just go with pragmatic considerations if you're not generally an AP, which is to say, "How much do you want to win?" And, when you've won a certain amount, do you really want to lose it back?

You'll notice, on the 98% return Double Diamond games Wizard discusses, that the win goal can be as high as 600% of bankroll if you have a 25-Credit bankroll. If the game sucks, it's barely over 100% of bankroll.

I could see where pragmatic things could be a consideration, though. If someone gets ahead $1,000 on a $500 Loss Rebate, then do you want to lose $1,500 (compared to where you are now) to get $500 back in two installments? Are you happy to just take the $1,000 and call it a day? That's going to vary from person to person.

Here's some WoO information about VP win goals:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/loss-rebate/

And, again, when you convert the Win Goals to actual dollars, I could see why someone would be satisfied to walk away with less than that if they get to a certain point.

2.) Make SURE your card is in.

-This one seems obvious, but it becomes even more important if your bet is going to be a high percentage of the amount to be rebated. If you can play at $25 denomination on VP, then a Max Bet is going to be $125. That's four bets. You don't want to have to potentially lose $125 and not have your card properly inserted just to have to lose $500 AFTER THAT to get the full rebate.

-Make sure the screen shows your name, card level, and everything like that. If you want to be really careful, check something on there that would require you to put in your PIN, now you know it's working.

3.) Remember, the rebate is variable.

But...it's $500...how is that variable?

It's variable until the point that you've already won. If you find yourself +$1,000, then that's your $1,000, you can walk away ahead $1,000 if you like. If you choose to risk it, you now have to lose $1,500 to get the $500 rebate. That's no longer a 100% loss rebate, it's a 33% Loss Rebate. It was 100% when you started, but now you have to lose more than $500 to get the rebate.

4.) Check your losses.

After you play and have lost, if that's what happens, wait five or ten minutes and then go ask the players club what they show you as losing. This is ALWAYS important, but even more important if you are not betting very much relative to the rebate.

Imagine if you are not terribly concerned with value and are just playing something at a $5 total bet, now the players club shows you at a $495 loss. You're going to lose $50 in Free Play because of that! Factoring in the house edge (and the fact that you actually have to lose another $5) that mistake is going to cost you just under $45 in expectation, so make sure to check! Besides that, the $5 gives you another shot.

5.) Free Play Counts

Even when doing loss rebates, some casinos may still give you Free Play for new members or for giving an E-Mail address, or something along those lines. Make sure to check your losses, of course, but also realize that any winnings from the Free Play are going to count as money won, so that's going to work against your rebate. If you win $20 off of any Free Play, then you need to lose $520 to get the $500 rebate. If you just lose $500 then you will show a loss of $480 giving you Free Play of $450 which has an actual cost on you.

6.) The pragmatics matter.

There's a difference between living right next to the casino and having a substantial drive, unless you would be going anyway. If you have a 2.5 hour drive each way, then on two pick-ups, you're going to spend 10 hours just driving for $500 in free play. That's going to be $50/hour in free play just on the driving, less when you count playing it off, even less when you look at expenses to get to and from the casino.

In that sense, if it's going to cost you substantial time to go back that you might not want to spend, then you might want to set your win goal lower than what may be considered optimal.

7.) (Try To) Know When the Free Play Will Hit and for How Long

The information anyone gives you will often be incorrect, but as much as possible, try to figure out how long after the day you play the free play will hit and how long each increment will be good for. If you're going to be out of town and don't have any other means of getting a pick up done, then you are effectively playing a 50% loss rebate if you're going to miss a pickup.

NOTE

Pretty much nothing I have said above is an advanced tactic of any kind. The post above is mainly for recreational players who are not necessarily all that familiar with loss rebates. There are some more advanced tactics I could talk about, but won't, because I will be hunted and killed if I do.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 14th, 2017 at 6:54:33 PM permalink
Quote: Actuarial

For those wondering - the terms seem pretty straight-forward on the website:

http://www.argosykansascity.com/Promotions/Play-500-On-Us

2 offers with separate dates, rounded down to the nearest $50



Good, take a screenshot and E-Mail it to yourself. You might need it.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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