http://www.fox5ny.com/news/239038840-story
Quote: WizardofnothingUntil you realize that hard rock gives table games players no match play and no comps Fml
Personally, I'm just glad that building is opening back up. As you know, I really enjoyed my time there.
Also, I have heard that HR can sometimes be fairly generous with comps for machine players, but it largely depends on the specific property. Lots of competition in AC, though, and one might assume they want to draw players from other properties.
Tier matching, free rooms and free play upfront, anyone?
The deed restriction quickly changed to something else, to not being a casino unless paying a fee. Taj had a restriction against Showboat, that it must be a casino, which just read, was to be waived if the Showboat gave Taj Mahal 40 weekend rooms until 2018. Assume that's out now, with Taj no longer an entity.Quote: ECoasterIsn't there another thread on here about a Taj deed restriction? Apparently they've changed their minds about that....
Glenn Straub is probably giving up on his casino, since he hasn't done a thing about it that I know of. His opening must certainly not seem as fruitful if another closed casino also opens.
I've admired Hard Rock ever since reading that the Cafe on the corner of the Taj remains open despite operating at a huge loss.
There is prescidence to the contrary.Quote: ahiromuI wonder if they get their hands on the player base of Taj, I'd think Icahn would like that to stay with Tropicana.
They sold/gave the list to Golden Nugget.
Quote: ahiromuThe Hard Rock brand has bought out Trump Taj and plans on reopening as a casino-hotel. Hard Rock International appears ready to burn $300m trying to turn a profit in AC. I wonder if they get their hands on the player base of Taj, I'd think Icahn would like that to stay with Tropicana.
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/239038840-story
$300M in renovations but Casino might not open until the summer of 2018.
also, Many of the 3000 laid off Taj workers are expected to be rehired when the casino opens??
lol.. out of work or under employed for almost 2 yrs after Taj shut down?!
They really just did some cosmetic changes to the Horizon in Tahoe and while the casino and public areas look good, the rooms are still old and basic.
On the comps, they are going to have to be competitive if the want to take players from other AC casinos. There are not many new ones to create so they better have a good plan.
But anything that creates jobs in AC is a good thing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/hard-rock-saves-boardwalk/
I'd also like to thank Ahiromu for OP'ing this thread, I was actually good and ready to start working on some other stuff last night,(early this morning) but then I saw this thread and got to work. I wouldn't have otherwise caught it until several hours later.
Quote: Boz
On the comps, they are going to have to be competitive if the want to take players from other AC casinos. There are not many new ones to create so they better have a good plan.
But anything that creates jobs in AC is a good thing.
I agree with that 100%, though if you've been following the gaming reports the market has shown a short-term trend of not just stabilizing, but improving. Granted, a 6% improvement (as I point out in my article) does not another viable casino make.
However, Hard Rock International, particularly given the planned investment and the resources the company has to back it up if the new HRCH-AC does not operate at a profit out of the gate tells me they are in it for the long haul. Out of the gates, I think that is going to mean the aggressive pursuit of guests from all of the AC casinos, which is going to require aggressive marketing to Tropicana, Golden Nugget and Resorts players. I think we all know what that might mean!
Quote: onenickelmiracleAlso read Hard Rock was involved wanting the northern new jersey casino. The ballot issue failure sent them here not able to start the casino they wanted. Not to mention their five year old plan for a $400 million boutique casino in AC that never happened.
Absolutely, and that is also mentioned in my article.
I don't know that the ballot issue failure did it in and of itself, because I don't know that the ballot measure was ever truly expected to pass. Hard Rock simply thinks, and has always thought, they could have success in the AC market. It had also been mentioned that they were considering leasing the former Revel's gaming space from Straub, and I also believe that they had contemplated purchasing one of the properties that had closed in 2014...but I forget which one. It may have been the Trump Plaza.
Edit to add: Unless its a Dotty's that's opening.
What you got against my poor Aunt Dotty?Quote: AxelWolfI have no idea if they will succeed or fail. anytime a casino is opening and not closing, its a good thing. Unless its a Dotty's.
How is stress and strain expressed in a casino?
Now I know we won't necessarily agree even on terms but let us think like engineers for a moment. Stress is the force acting upon the bridge, strain is the number of inches the bridge sags.
So strain on a casino is largely its bottom line.
Stress are the various market and political forces it operates under.
We all know Vegas has a history where unions have been used to strangle a casino owner and force decisions and where the fear of union contracts is high. The Venetian pays housekeepers very high wages to keep unions out. Various bar tender and caterers unions are said to be strong in Vegas. The teamsters represent some dealers, if I recall things from eons ago. (At my age, eons ago can be yesterday).
We know casinos do BATTLE on several fronts:
Labor
Comps
Smoke versus no smoke
Blueies versus young clubbers.
Bingo versus slot players
Slot players versus VP players
VP players versus VP-Enlightened
BJ Ploppies versus BJ-Enlightened
Roulette Plopppies versus 'normal' players?
Oh, heck... everything within a casino is a matter of compromise.
Should we have that darned big six wheel or not?
Should we adopt a European wheel?
Should we pay 2x or 3x on 12 in the Field
Should we comp every fool with twenty bucks in his pocket or just comp the fools with 2,000 dollars in their pockets?
And above all else perhaps... smoking or non smoking or take it to the alley policies? The law, genetics, social policies and financial desperation all play a role here. No matter how much a dealer hates smoke and some customers hate smoke, casinos know that the Irish drinkk and Gamblers smoke. Heck even the little old ladies playing Bingo often want to smoke yet many want a segregated smoke free area.
Sam's Town has chosen to have scooters and oxygen generators galore.
The Hard Rock would prefer a young crowd
Dotty had chosen 'loners and loosers' and abandoned all frills and enticements.
The M maximizes its Kitchen offering endless 'take home specials' hoping to get gamblers.
All casinos offer mailers hoping to entice people in early.
Some casinos treat people on their birthdays, some have a 'celebrate your birthday but only on this one selected day a month, places like that casino out near Hoover Dam have done away with ALL birthday celebrations completely.
Some casinos comp on slots but all have to decide what polidy do we adopt for points on VP and those darn people who memorize the optimal strategy instead of treating it like a slot machine.
So... just how much will 'stress' affect the policies of the Hard Rock (nee Tah Majal) or whatever the most recent name game is? You really think a smoking policy is going to be vital? Are casinos so desperate for getting someone in the door that they will adopt weird stances?
Opening is good. Staying open is better. Getting and staying profitable is best.
Name owner and policy shuffles are entertaining but I don't see any real changes such as infrastructure, police budgets, or street traffic changing in AC. And the Sands is still much more of an effect in AC as the beach sand is.
Are casino managers really unable to do more than shuffle the deck chairs and change the name of the Ship?
Now that a reputable and successful outfit like the HA is taking over, he will find a way to sue them to get his name back up on the property. And if by chance it fails, he will then sue to get his name off the building.
That being said, The HA is going to have a tough time in AC. The property itself is a great property and right on the boardwalk.... but who goes to AC anymore? Really who, other than locals and those who want to get a way once and a while. Summertime they can get traffic, but they better understand what to build and who to cater to. There are too many properties in AC!
They need to renovate the entire joint. Yes, Ive seen bugs in my bathroom there and the faucets never worked properly. My friend saw a rat on the floor he was on... and the list goes on. There are many execs at Seminole Hardrock that are from AC who have a great track record from Borgata. I trust that if they are involved that they will do an amazing job and they will have my business for sure.
Quote: AxelWolfI have no idea if they will succeed or fail. As far as im concerned, anytime a casino is opening and not closing, its a good thing.
Edit to add: Unless its a Dotty's that's opening.
Looks like they just bought a couple BJ's cocktail lounges including the one on Tropicana. Never went in one but they had a cool logo.
The employment casinos provide is not worthwhile or a net positive, but that's another rant for another day.
Good to know that. Me and my GF were ask not to come back to BJ's any more after a few months of playing their promotions.Quote: BozLooks like they just bought a couple BJ's cocktail lounges including the one on Tropicana. Never went in one but they had a cool logo.
Quote: mcallister3200Does opening a new casino in a dying market really create jobs or does it just move jobs from resorts, ballys etc to HR? Unlikely AC is getting new customers, they need a new industry if there's any hope to stop the death spiral.
The employment casinos provide is not worthwhile or a net positive, but that's another rant for another day.
I don't think it's fair to say that casinos don't provide a positive net income/profit to an area. Especially travel destinations, of which I would classify AC, it's hard to argue that they don't bring money from Philly and NYC into southern Jersey. Now, whether they provide a net positive including social factors, I might agree that the answer is no.
I agree on your first point though. It's unlikely that a new/refurbished hotel brings enough new customers to the city.
Quote: mcallister3200Does opening a new casino in a dying market really create jobs or does it just move jobs from resorts, ballys etc to HR? Unlikely AC is getting new customers, they need a new industry if there's any hope to stop the death spiral.
The employment casinos provide is not worthwhile or a net positive, but that's another rant for another day.
In the case of this particular casino, it certainly will create some temporary (but pretty good paying) construction jobs. HRI plans to invest around 300 million into rehabbing and rebranding the property, so that obviously wouldn't be happening had the property not sold to anyone as Icahn publicly stated he had no intention of reopening it.
I don't know that the death spiral hasn't stopped, granted it's only a couple of months, but total casino win was up 6% in January of 2017 v. January of 2016. Furthermore, 2016 was a better year for casino win than 2015 for the first time in a decade.
As far as diverting jobs from one place to another, I'm going to say yes and no. What you had with the AC market, at least the bottom tier casinos, for the last several years is a war of attrition. Basically, you had a few casinos that were losing money but a couple of those casinos also knew that, if they could hold on long enough, there was a potential to be profitable again.
When it comes to jobs, I don't think every job is merely moved from one place to another. To give an extreme example of what I am talking about, let's say that there is a small town with two competing convenience stores or gas stations. Each of these two locations is open from 7a-11p, and each of the two locations loses a little bit of money as the revenues don't quite cover day-to-day operating costs.
However, each location has two cashiers working per day, one on the 7a-3p shift and the other on the 3p-11p shift, so in total, you have four cashiers. While there isn't much hope of actual improvement, the owners of both gas stations know that, if the other gas station were to close, then their own gas station could be slightly profitable.
Let's imagine though that, 'Slightly profitable,' entails enough business only during the, 'Prime Time,' hours, we'll call them between 4p-9p for these purposes, two have two cashiers working at the one gas station. Also, 'Prime Time,' only constitutes Monday through Friday.
The result is that what was once two gas stations that would have had at least three employees each (obviously a company losing money wants to avoid overtime) would have 224 combined operating hours every week. After one closes and the other keeps the same hours, but hires a part-time employee to cover, 'Prime Time,' the total labor output is 137 hours per week. Essentially, we go from as many as four full-time jobs and two part-time jobs to as few as three FT and one PT job.
It's kind of the same thing, in a way. While the workload for the employee(s) in a given department might not be what it would be if there were fewer companies in the market, which, of course, technically decreases efficiency, you still need to have the physical employees if there is going to be a non-zero amount of work.
This is also proven by the fact that many of the former Trump Taj Mahal employees are still out of work. If the way it worked was the new casino opens and the employees from the other casinos simply move there and the net number of individuals in the workforce is unchanged, then the same concept should work in reverse, when a place closes all of the employees would scatter to the other places and the net number of employees in the market would remain the same.
But, it's much more complex than that. More complex than I'm making it, too. I think one positional example, though, would be something like a Director of Marketing. Most casinos only have one such person, so fewer casinos, fewer Directors of Marketing. If you have a casino, you have a Director of Marketing, even if he doesn't necessarily have as much to do as he would if there were fewer casinos as a result putting more hosts and other staff under him given that they serve more guests.
Cliff notes please.Quote: Mission146In the case of this particular casino, it certainly will create some temporary (but pretty good paying) construction jobs. HRI plans to invest around 300 million into rehabbing and rebranding the property, so that obviously wouldn't be happening had the property not sold to anyone as Icahn publicly stated he had no intention of reopening it.
I don't know that the death spiral hasn't stopped, granted it's only a couple of months, but total casino win was up 6% in January of 2017 v. January of 2016. Furthermore, 2016 was a better year for casino win than 2015 for the first time in a decade.
As far as diverting jobs from one place to another, I'm going to say yes and no. What you had with the AC market, at least the bottom tier casinos, for the last several years is a war of attrition. Basically, you had a few casinos that were losing money but a couple of those casinos also knew that, if they could hold on long enough, there was a potential to be profitable again.
When it comes to jobs, I don't think every job is merely moved from one place to another. To give an extreme example of what I am talking about, let's say that there is a small town with two competing convenience stores or gas stations. Each of these two locations is open from 7a-11p, and each of the two locations loses a little bit of money as the revenues don't quite cover day-to-day operating costs.
However, each location has two cashiers working per day, one on the 7a-3p shift and the other on the 3p-11p shift, so in total, you have four cashiers. While there isn't much hope of actual improvement, the owners of both gas stations know that, if the other gas station were to close, then their own gas station could be slightly profitable.
Let's imagine though that, 'Slightly profitable,' entails enough business only during the, 'Prime Time,' hours, we'll call them between 4p-9p for these purposes, two have two cashiers working at the one gas station. Also, 'Prime Time,' only constitutes Monday through Friday.
The result is that what was once two gas stations that would have had at least three employees each (obviously a company losing money wants to avoid overtime) would have 224 combined operating hours every week. After one closes and the other keeps the same hours, but hires a part-time employee to cover, 'Prime Time,' the total labor output is 137 hours per week. Essentially, we go from as many as four full-time jobs and two part-time jobs to as few as three FT and one PT job.
It's kind of the same thing, in a way. While the workload for the employee(s) in a given department might not be what it would be if there were fewer companies in the market, which, of course, technically decreases efficiency, you still need to have the physical employees if there is going to be a non-zero amount of work.
This is also proven by the fact that many of the former Trump Taj Mahal employees are still out of work. If the way it worked was the new casino opens and the employees from the other casinos simply move there and the net number of individuals in the workforce is unchanged, then the same concept should work in reverse, when a place closes all of the employees would scatter to the other places and the net number of employees in the market would remain the same.
But, it's much more complex than that. More complex than I'm making it, too. I think one positional example, though, would be something like a Director of Marketing. Most casinos only have one such person, so fewer casinos, fewer Directors of Marketing. If you have a casino, you have a Director of Marketing, even if he doesn't necessarily have as much to do as he would if there were fewer casinos as a result putting more hosts and other staff under him given that they serve more guests.
I don't know how they can invest 300 million in an AC casino. I Think 300 million would be able to buy the entire city.
Quote: AxelWolfCliff notes please.
I don't know how they can invest 300 million in an AC casino. I Think 300 million would be able to buy the entire city.
Some jobs will come from other casinos, but some would not exist without a new casino.
Or N...evermind.Quote: Wizardofnothing300 million to hard rock is like 10 dollars to kentry
Quote: WatchMeWinThey could do so much with that property.... I really hope people that know what they are doing get involved and make it rival The Borgata. They should just take the blue print from Borgata and do exactly what they do...on the beach! Its not rocket science...
What do they do so well that the Tropicana doesn't?
http://www.atlanticcityweekly.com/casinos/plans-for-hard-rock-hotel-casino-include-weekday-entertainment-a/article_ffdf94ec-65bb-5d52-a8fd-fdfee3886e83.html
Quote: WizardofnothingUntil you realize that hard rock gives table games players no match play and no comps Fml
On the bright side, maybe better comps from competitor casinos to keep your business?
I'd imagine they'll be stingy with comps in the beginning anyway, I think it'll be pretty packed in the beginning. I hope they do a good job on renovations, the Taj Mahal theme looks like garbage.
The casinos certainly changed that. Boardwalk was thriving and a number of businesses boomed. In the late 90s, AC was a great place to be. I spent the summer of 99 sharing a house in Margate and must have spent close to a hundred days in AC that year. When the Borgota opened, it really hurt the Boardwalk, and the stupid closing of the Sands killed the town. People might not realize it, but when they closed the Sands, they also shut down two of the busiest bars in AC, a place where dealers drank and socialized. After that, many employees just went home instead of hanging out after their shifts. Things were never the same.
Quote: gamerfreak
Quote: WizardofnothingUntil you realize that hard rock gives table games players no match play and no comps Fml
On the bright side, maybe better comps from competitor casinos to keep your business?
I'd imagine they'll be stingy with comps in the beginning anyway, I think it'll be pretty packed in the beginning. I hope they do a good job on renovations, the Taj Mahal theme looks like garbage.
gamerfreak, wazzup?? I went looking for the WizOfNothing quote in your email, but cannot locate it in this thread. Mighty hard to respond to a non-existent post, don'cher know? So, please share from where it originated?
As for Hard Rock comps in AC, I have no idea. But, the Biloxi Hard Rock is quite generous in its own way. I cannot eat all the food it offers me, and its buffet is very good IMHO. For my play (as a bottom-feeder) I get reasonable room comps. (They kick me out after 1 night, but we're working on that.) Hard Rock has free (no points required) give-aways several times a week (but, they do expect some reasonable play or else you may not receive the offers going forward). I play lotsa table games there.
I dunno if WizOfNothing was naughty at Hard Rock, or what. Seeing the original email might have been helpful. Based on my experience, Hard Rock in Biloxi gives players a reasonably good gaming experience. Mileage may vary for those playing in Atlantic City.
Quote: LuckyPhowQuote: gamerfreak
On the bright side, maybe better comps from competitor casinos to keep your business?
I'd imagine they'll be stingy with comps in the beginning anyway, I think it'll be pretty packed in the beginning. I hope they do a good job on renovations, the Taj Mahal theme looks like garbage.
gamerfreak, wazzup?? I went looking for the WizOfNothing quote in your email, but cannot locate it in this thread. Mighty hard to respond to a non-existent post, don'cher know? So, please share from where it originated?
As for Hard Rock comps in AC, I have no idea. But, the Biloxi Hard Rock is quite generous in its own way. I cannot eat all the food it offers me, and its buffet is very good IMHO. For my play (as a bottom-feeder) I get reasonable room comps. (They kick me out after 1 night, but we're working on that.) Hard Rock has free (no points required) give-aways several times a week (but, they do expect some reasonable play or else you may not receive the offers going forward). I play lotsa table games there.
I dunno if WizOfNothing was naughty at Hard Rock, or what. Seeing the original email might have been helpful. Based on my experience, Hard Rock in Biloxi gives players a reasonably good gaming experience. Mileage may vary for those playing in Atlantic City.
Not sure about any emails, but the post I quoted is on the first page of this thread, 3rd from the top.
Quote: gamerfreakQuote: LuckyPhowQuote: gamerfreakthe post I quoted is on the first page of this thread, 3rd from the top.
Dunno how I missed it. Please pardon my Senior Moment.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/06/hard-rock-unveils-plans-for-atlantic-city-casino-hotel.html
Is this standard at other Hard Rock properties ? I never heard of that offer. I would shred the hell out of any electric fender with a little portable amp setup in my hotel room.
Quote: DiscreteMaths2Hard Rock's Sound of Your Stay program will allow them to check out a Fender guitar to jam out with from the comfort of their room. Is this standard at other Hard Rock properties ? I never heard of that offer.
DM,
I dunno the details (since I don't play), but if my foggy memory hasn't let me down, I believe Hard Rock Biloxi has this program also. Hey, Jimmy Buffet came from right "next door" to Biloxi, right?
But, there might be some rules, don'cher know. Like, if your playing keeps me up, I can bring my 6-pack to your room so we can all party.
Icahn described the March 1 sale as "the optimal outcome" for Icahn Enterprises, but the sale amount was not made known at the time.
Documents filed in late March with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, however, show Icahn Enterprise agreed to sell the former casino resort for $50 million, or about 5 percent of what it cost to construct.
The property, constructed by real estate mogul and now president Donald J. Trump, cost more than$1 billion to build.
This isn't the first Atlantic City property that cost over $1 billion to sell for pennies on the dollar. The $2.4 billion Revel, which closed in 2014, sold for about $82 million, or about 3.4 percent of what it cost to build.
Hard Rock, Atlantic City and state officials in April this year announced the $375 million changes planned to turn the empty Boardwalk property into Hard Rock Hotel & Casino Atlantic City, which includes moving Hard Rock Café Atlantic City to a new 400-seat venue that includes beach access.
so Hard Rock is going to spend $50m + $375m = $425m.
Would it have been cheaper/better just to build from scratch?
and a better location, say, the other end of the Boardwalk near the Trop? or even the Marina near Borgata?
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/trump-taj-mahal-hosting-liquidation-sale-beginning-thursday/article_95983c52-2eb1-552d-9c1c-0a8e112a9180.html