Posted by blackthirteen
Jul 06, 2011

Customer is wrong @ Edgewater Casino Vancouver BC, Canada,

I'm writing this to get some closure on an incident that took place in Vancouver Canada.
While playing roulette at the Edgewater Casino the following event took place.

I was standing by the roulette table watching a friend play and enjoying myself. My buddy flips a $100 dollar chip my way and says go big. While this is happening the dealer spins the ball. I pick the chip up from in front of me, place it straight up on 13 of course and lean back. The dealer sees the chip and removes it from the number just as the ball hits the 13, saying value chips don't play on the inside for roulette. As one would imagine I lose my mind. I have played roulette on several different continents, and in too many countries to list here, and never have I been told that a value chip from the casino isn't allowed on the inside especially when it's a 100 dollar chip. The limits were 1-100 and that was the only sign that appeared. I understand that if someone is already playing nickels or quarters that color has to be given, but very few people will ever play black chips inside.

Anyway the dealer marks the number and begins paying the rest of the table while I am left with my chip back and in need of some serious talking with the management of this establishment. In my mind of course they just cost me $3500 dollars, which would come in real handy about now. The long and short of it is this. BC Lottery Commission has placed the no value chip inside rule in effect to stop disputes between people playing the same value chip and arguing over who and how many were placed etc. They don't have a single sign anywhere on property stating this at all. I'm no novice player when it comes to roulette, and I know many of the unwritten rules about this game, but when it comes to money/chips most of those rules are clearly stated out in the open. The only sign was the limit sign 1-100.
My big problem is this. I was stuck in a no mans land of other rules. When the ball is spinning a dealer will not make change, take a cash wager, or any of a number of other things. I put my $100 dollar Edgewater Casino chip straight up and fully expected that that was a legal wager. I know it is in Vegas, as well as 99% of the other casino's in the world, unless otherwise stated. Since the dealer sees it as a value chip he did what he was instructed to do which was to give it back and say value doesn't play. I'm understanding up to a point, but since it was clear that I intended to bet 100, and no one else had any intention of doing any such thing, and there was no sign stating that value chips don't play inside, but do play outside. since the ball was already spinning I obviously couldn't get change for my chip. I had the great pleasure of losing $3500 because of some rule that should have been posted larger than the display board. My problem was compounded by the fact that these roulette layouts have a racetrack on them for betting the neighbors. I know for a fact that a $100 dollar chip was used to place a bet on the track, the number hit was a number in the range of the neighbors and 4 $5 value chips were placed on the inside to pay off the player who made the bet. This to me is an inside bet, and probably to the commission as well. I saw this prior to my making the wager I made, and honestly never in a million years would I have figured that a casinos own chip was not allowed to play on the inside of a roulette layout. Again I realize that there was nothing I could do about it anyway because the ball was already in motion and I wasn't gonna get my own color from the dealer, but at the very least it could have been treated just like the racetrack bet were he noted the chip as a bet, and then placed 20 $5 dollar chips in its place and asked me to please play roulette chips from here on in since we don't play value here on our planet.


gambler Jul 07, 2011

That sucks, but I bet you would have thanked the dealer if he returned your chip had it not landed on 13!

FleaStiff Jul 07, 2011

Rules that are significant and also a significant departure from normal and customary practices should indeed be posted.

Must throw dice with the Right Hand only? Okay. Its their casino, they can adopt unusual rules but they should also expect some lefties to wander in and not have crystal balls.

I can understand the rule and its reasons. Now if you had some sudden certainty ... well, you'll have it again sometime so good luck then.

There is a time where the dealer should say "booked" but then tell you at a next opportune moment.

Ayecarumba Jul 07, 2011

I expect that there is the equivalent of a Gaming Control Board in Canada where you can file your grievance. Do so as quickly as possible, as the security tapes are only retained for a few days.

DJTeddyBear Jul 07, 2011

I do not know if the dealer did the right thing or not. You should file a grievance with the gaming commission for a ruling.

Rules like those do NOT need to be posted. Frankly, there are too damn many rules to post them all. Table limits ARE posted for the simple fact that the can change.

If it's not inconvenient, return to the casino and get a copy of their beginner's instructions guide. See if it says anything in there about it. If not, ask to see the official rules. The gaming commission should have a copy for you to at least look at.

DJTeddyBear Jul 08, 2011


If you want more comments, you should post this as a question in the forum.

blackthirteen Jul 09, 2011

I did file, and it is all under revue as we speak. I have them on a technical since they had booked an earlier bet on the racetrack with a value chip, which is consider an inside bet and all of that is on tape as well.

I posted this as a blog just to blow off some steam, and to get it off my chest.

Ayecarumba Jul 11, 2011

Good luck. I think you will prevail. It is too bad it has to go this far for them to do what is right. Please post the outcome on the regular board when it is resolved.

Posted by blackthirteen
Aug 17, 2010

getting back in the mix

I'm looking forward to being back in Vegas for a short time off. I haven't been home it seems like for months and I honestly can't wait to get there and start playing again. I am a gambling local. Although there are probably non locals who spend more of their time in town than I do. I still treat Vegas as if I was a tourist which is both good and bad. The good is that I haven't seen everything there is to see in town even though I have lived there off and on since 82'. The bad well lets just say I sometimes take to long to clear an intersection etc. and other little things that piss people off who know exactly where they are going, and need to get there right this second if only this idiot would move out of the way.
I have a few favorite places and several dealers and floor people who I enjoy chatting with to pass the time. I enjoy hearing the latest gossip if someone is getting crushed, or is taking the casino to their knees on some unheard of Bac run. I have my moments of doing both. As you may suspect I prefer being the crusher rather than getting crushed. I know that casinos have put way bigger dents in me than I ever have in them. I enjoy it for what it is. It's entertainment. A rush. A heater. It doesn't happen all of the time, but when you do things like hit 2 royals in fifteen minutes on single line poker machines its a pretty cool feeling. I've had a good year so far, and hope that it holds up when I get home. I haven't set any plans in stone yet, but I think this may be the time when I go sample as many of the top steak joints I can find the time for. I haven't seen any shows so maybe its time to scare up a date and head out to one. I need to get out and explore nature a bit so maybe a trip down the Colorado, or a quick drive up to Charleston before it gets cold. My free time is limited, although I have more time than most people do and for that I am very thankful. But I need to do more with it, and make much better use of it this time around. I have a habit of squandering both time and money for no apparent reason other than I can. It's not a fact that I'm proud of, but it is true. I should shut up before this becomes a true confessional. Just trying to keep learning and growing as time pass me by.


odiousgambit Aug 17, 2010

I'm very curious as to what kind of relationship most locals have with the gambling temptation. Do most simply feel they must ignore it, or do they indulge it? Is it destructive to many locals to have all that temptation?

Posted by blackthirteen
Jun 23, 2010

Redraw Royal

I believe that being dealt a royal is somewhere in the 649000 to 1 range. I could be wrong. I was wondering in the video poker world where you are the only one being dealt to are those odds the same? And my real question for all the math people out there is, what are the actual odds of tossing your first five cards, and receiving a royal flush in video poker? I happened to witness this about a month ago. More goofy things that keep me up at night.


rdw4potus Jun 23, 2010

The odds of you receiving a royal are the same no matter how many players are involved. The unseen cards do not matter, whether they're still in the deck or in another player's hand. The odds of anyone receiving a royal increase the more players are involved (because more cards are seen).

Your discard question is a bit more involved, as it depends on the exact cards that are discarded. If they're all 9 or lower, then the odds of discarding all and getting a royal are about 1:383000. (20/47*4/46*3/45*2/44*1/43) If the discarded hand includes any card 10 or higher, then you cannot redraw to a royal in that suit so the odds are much higher against drawing 5 cards to a royal.

ruascott Jun 23, 2010

I don't know the answer to your question, but you'll probably get a lot better response by posting this in the forum, rather than as a blog.

Posted by blackthirteen
May 07, 2010

devils game

So here goes.
I am looking for information on the person or group of people who placed the numbers on the American Roulette Wheel. I don't want a system for the game, I don't believe any of them. I would like to find actual history of the Double Zero roulette wheel and the formula that was used to make it all so nice and neat.
For example. Looking at the wheel with the 00 at the top or noon position and the 0 at the six position the left side contains all odd numbers 1-17 and even numbers 20-36. Therefore the right side has even numbers 2-18 and odd numbers 19- 35. When these numbers are broken into black and red you can go around the entire wheel and add either 2 black or 2 reds together and come up with a sum of 37. Moving counter clock wise the first number left of the 00 is red 1, followed by black 13, red 36, black 24 etc. which can be added up to 37 as previously stated. The only numbers that don't stick with this color/number sequence are red 27/ black 10 and black 28 and red 9. It probably goes without mentioning that the numbers are exactly opposite of each other as well which only makes me more curious.

Was this all dumb luck? Is there a formula based on 6/36 or something similar or did they look at the numbers in groups of 12 and start by pick one from each group i e 1/13/36
Which as I look at it seems to make sense, but I want to know if there is a patent on the first double zero wheel and who, or what gaming company holds it.

Thanks for any help in advance, it would be nice to have someone else's knowledge of this subject to help put my mind to rest. It may be a very simple thing to some people but it has puzzled the crap out of me for a while now and I just want the voices to go away. Thanks.


Wizard May 07, 2010

I've read lots of gambling books, and never seen a specific answer to your question. They say the numbers were placed to evenly balance the wheel between high and low numbers. You can take any consecutive run of numbers, not counting the zeros, and the average will be about 18.5. However, there are still various ways that could be achieved. If you find out, let me know.

dwheatley May 10, 2010

One interesting fact I found is that EVERY odd number is directly across the wheel from the even number that comes next (1 and 2, 3 and 4, etc.) Also, in many(but not all) cases, the next odd number is located 4 spots away from the previous odd number. If those numbers are less than 18, look in a counterclockwise direction, while if they are bigger than 18, look in a clockwise direction.

Another way of thinking about this: Let's pretend we are placing the #s on the roulette wheel. Starting counterclockwise from 00 (opposite from 0... remember the first wheels only had one 0) we start by placing 1 and 36 in the 1st and 3rd spots. Why? I don't know, but let's run with this. Place 2 and 35 directly opposite 1 and 36. Then head 4 spots counterclockwise from 1 and 36, and place 3 and 34 in the 5th and 7th spots. Place 4 and 33 directly opposite those. Do this until you have placed 1-10 and 36-29. But where to place 28 and 27? They would land on the 0 and 00. So let's just cheat a little and place them next to 0 and 00. Now we have placed 20 numbers, but have gone all the way around the wheel. We need to start somewhere else.

From here, the pattern breaks down for 11-12, and where to place 13. It also breaks down for 26-23. But then the 4 spot trick works again until we have to squeeze in 17 and 18 in the final spots. The whole time, consecutive pairs are always directly across from each other.

It's not perfect, but it's pretty close to sense making.

blackthirteen May 10, 2010

Very interesting.

cards247 May 11, 2010

I'm not a Roulette player, but I always thought it was to prevent the red or black bet from being a 50/50 chance.