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ALFERALFER
ALFERALFER
Joined: Nov 15, 2011
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November 15th, 2011 at 2:29:01 PM permalink
IRS REGULATIONS.
Reportable Gambling Winnings
Report gambling winnings on Form W-2G if:

The winnings (not reduced by the wager) are $1,200 or more from a bingo game or slot machine,

The winnings (reduced by the wager) are $1,500 or more from a keno game,

The winnings (reduced by the wager or buy-in) are more than $5,000 from a poker tournament,

The winnings (except winnings from bingo, slot machines, keno, and poker tournaments) reduced, at the option of the payer, by the wager are:

$600 or more, and

At least 300 times the amount of the wager, or

The winnings are subject to federal income tax withholding (either regular gambling withholding or backup withholding).


Tax-Exempt Organizations
A tax-exempt organization conducting gaming activities may be required to withhold income tax and report on Form W-2G. See Pub. 3079, Tax-Exempt Organizations And Gaming.

Withholding
There are two types of withholding on gambling winnings: (a) regular gambling withholding at 25% (33.33% for certain noncash payments) and (b) backup withholding at 28%. If a payment is already subject to regular gambling withholding, it is not subject to backup withholding.

Regular Gambling Withholding
You may be required to withhold 25% of gambling winnings for federal income tax. This is referred to as regular gambling withholding. Withhold at the 25% rate if the winnings minus the wager are more than $5,000 and are from:

Sweepstakes,

Wagering pools,

Lotteries, or

Other wagering transactions if the winnings are at least 300 times the amount wagered.


Do not withhold at the 25% rate on winnings from bingo, keno, slot machines, or any other wagering transaction if the winnings are $5,000 or less. However, see Backup Withholding below.

Regular gambling withholding is figured on the total amount of gross proceeds (the amount of winnings minus the amount wagered), not merely on the amount in excess of $5,000.

Report the amount you withheld in box 2 of Form W-2G. Also file Form 945, Annual Return of Withheld Federal Income Tax, to report all your gambling withholding.

Noncash payments. A noncash payment, such as a car, must be taken into account at its fair market value (FMV) for purposes of reporting and withholding. If the FMV exceeds $5,000, after deducting the price of the wager, the winnings are subject to 25% regular gambling withholding. The tax you must withhold is computed and paid under either of the following two methods.
The winner pays the withholding tax to the payer. In this case, the withholding is 25% of the FMV of the noncash payment minus the amount of the wager.

The payer pays the withholding tax. In this case, the withholding is 33.33% of the FMV of the noncash payment minus the amount of the wager.


If you use method 2, enter the sum of the noncash payment and the withholding tax in box 1 of Form W-2G and the withholding tax paid by the payer in box 2.

Backup Withholding
You may be required to withhold 28% of gambling winnings (including winnings from bingo, keno, slot machines, and poker tournaments) for federal income tax. This is referred to as backup withholding. You should backup withhold at the 28% rate if:

The winner does not furnish a correct taxpayer identification number (TIN),

25% has not been withheld, and

The winnings are at least $600 and at least 300 times the wager (or the winnings are at least $1,200 from bingo or slot machines or $1,500 from keno or more than $5,000 from a poker tournament).


Figure any backup withholding on the total amount of the winnings reduced, at the option of the payer, by the amount wagered. This means the total amount, not just the payments in excess of $600, $1,200, $1,500, or $5,000, is subject to backup withholding at 28%.
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
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November 6th, 2012 at 12:48:10 AM permalink
Sorry for digging this up, but IMHO the FIRE BET suffers from too high a payout. Now that the Wizard of Odds (thanks to miplet, et al for the answers) has the math done, its easy to create a more structured ramp. Waiting for 4 numbers to hit, and paying high-odds for all 6, just doesen't seem right. I mean imagine pai gow poker bonus side-bets configured this way... quads or better to win and 20G for 5-Aces Paired for example. I think the bet-ramp is poorly made/greedy, but back-fired. At $2000 for all 6, with 10 Players up for a $1, is it any wonder???

As an example I offer this structure with an 8.93% HA... if the 1st 3 bets pay 2:1, 6:1, 20:1 the HA is about 15%. $1 ONLY... Good Luck & Good Game!

2 Points........ 3:1
3 Points........ 6:1
4 Points...... 15:1
5 Points...... 60:1
6 Points.... 250:1
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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November 6th, 2012 at 12:46:06 PM permalink
Unfortunately, I believe the high payout of the Fire Bet is part of its appeal. I would never lower the payout of 6 points below $500 for a $1 wager. But I agree that 3 points should be paid out. I'm more indifferent about 2 points being paid.

This below gives the house a 16.7% edge and a hit frequency of 4.4% (which is okay for a bet like this!)...these are payouts on a "for 1" basis:

0-2...0
3...5
4...20
5...200
6...1000
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
  • Threads: 51
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November 6th, 2012 at 7:55:02 PM permalink
I partly agree, but really, how many ppl know the odds... if you open this bet in an E.Coast casino chances are it lives. In Vegas, where the high payouts exists, epic fail
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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November 6th, 2012 at 10:17:29 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

I partly agree, but really, how many ppl know the odds... if you open this bet in an E.Coast casino chances are it lives. In Vegas, where the high payouts exists, epic fail



?? The fire bet is a significant success, at least I thought? It even exists in Missouri.
98Clubs
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 1725
November 6th, 2012 at 10:37:40 PM permalink
Previously in this thread (1 yr old) theres talk about certain well-known Vegas Casinos removing the game. Seemed odd to me that a bet with 20-25% HA would ever get pulled, but evidently, the Casinos were not bankrolled enough to back the bet. As I stated earlier, with 10 Customers betting $1, the risk is 20G's. Second, it looks like the required verite for the high payout delayed the game. It was even posted that a 5-minute dbl. check meant the House was losing $$$, and of course, the interruption may have cooled the Shooter.... not what you want both sides of the game. After seeing this just recently, I agreed, a bet that was bad bizzness. So it seemed to me that a low payment, and low payouts (well 250:1 ain't low on a Crap table) could keep the game moving and generate some promise. Maybe $500 for all 6 would be OK, but the lack of proper bankrolling in the first place seemed to doom the bet.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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November 7th, 2012 at 2:29:17 AM permalink
Smaller casinos that have a limited craps clientele probably can't risk the fire bet.

I sometimes stop at the Gold Strike at Jean on the I-15 on the way to Vegas. they have one table, $3 minimums and I think the max bet is $500. I asked them if they were going to get the Fire Bet and a supervisor told me they just couldnt afford it. If one player hit it for $5 -- that's five-thousand which is more than this little casino makes in a day at the craps table. they usually have only one side open, using two dealers.
mountpleasantt
mountpleasantt
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
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September 1st, 2016 at 8:35:49 AM permalink
how did you get that. 0 pts= 98/165 where does the 98 and 165 come from?
MB
MB
Joined: Aug 20, 2015
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January 21st, 2018 at 6:07:43 PM permalink
I recently had a very long roll of about 50-60 shots...without making the fire bet. I made 8 or 9 points, but only 3 unique ones. That struck me as fairly rare. Anyone have an idea exactly how rare?

Let Pn,k be the probability that an active ‘n’ point roll has at least ‘k’ unique points. What is the smallest value of ‘n’ where Pn,k is greater than 50%? 90%? 99%? Compute for ‘k’ from 1-6. By definition, P2k-1,k is zero & P2k,k is non-zero.

Note: k = 1 is interesting as 1-(Pn,1) represents the probability that an ‘n’ point roll has no points.
Ace2
Ace2
Joined: Oct 2, 2017
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January 21st, 2018 at 10:23:50 PM permalink
My initial back of the envelope estimate tells me it’s not that rare. Like roughly 1 in 37 chance that you would hit less than 4 unique points in a run lasting 60 rolls. I’ll try to spend some more time on it tomorrow.

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