tourney skill game idea with zero EV and/or + EV for the player

Hey guys

I am back with another new game idea :)

I apologize in advance for my English.

Lets see if my calculation about + EV and Zero EV for the player of this game is correct and if not please teach me and correct me.

The game is 10 card rummy skill game. 52 card deck. No Joker.
It is played alone, some call it solitaire as you do not play against any opponent. It should be offered as a tournament game.

Game rules / Play
To play, the cards are shuffled and you are dealt 10 cards. You draw one card from the deck and discard one card from your hand. Your goal is to create a Meld until all 10 cards are Meld and you discard the eleventh card.

Once you have drawn and discarded your first card, you draw a card from the top of the draw pile, analyze your hand, keep the cards you want, and choose one to discard. Continue until you are ready to end the game, i.e. you have 10 Meld cards and one card to discard.

Now the important part is that after you have melded 10 cards and discarded your eleventh card, we count the cards in the discard pile.
In the discard pile we might have 0 cards, 1 card, 2 cards, 3 cards, and so on. This number is what we keep track of and count in the leaderboard. At the end of the tournament, the player with the lowest number of cards in their discard pile wins.

Let me explain what melds are accepted. There are 2 types of melds = runs and sets.
An example of a run is A-2-3 or 8-9-10 a run can even have up to 10 cards like 6-7-8-9-10-J etc. A run must always be in the same suit which is Spades - Hearts - Diamonds - and Clubs.
An example of a set is J-J-J-J, which can have a minimum of 3 J-J-J and a maximum of 4 J-J-J-J.

let us do a tournament example to see if I have the + EV and zero EV right. it will be a daily tournament (24 hours). each participant is allowed to play as many games as he wants during the daily tournament after paying the one time entry fee. the player will have the option to see the leaderboard at any time to see where he is in the tournament.

We have 1000 participants. each participant must pay $1 entry fee. we now have $1000. to make it simple, we will give $1000 as first prize.
For me it is a zero EV game, please correct me if I am wrong.

We can also give $1100 as first prize and in this case I would say it is a + EV game for the player.
please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for reading and any input is greatly appreciated.
Cheers

You are correct in your zero EV and +EV assumptions.

I’d bet you can’t get 1000 players…!

Quote: SOOPOO

You are correct in your zero EV and +EV assumptions.

I’d bet you can’t get 1000 players…!
link to original post

thank you for the confirmation. I am glad I am right.

why do you think I will not get 1000 players for a tournament for a skill game like 10 cards rummy?

edit:
I think it is a question of the prize amount

Quote: seven

Quote: SOOPOO

You are correct in your zero EV and +EV assumptions.

I’d bet you can’t get 1000 players…!
link to original post

thank you for the confirmation. I am glad I am right.

why do you think I will not get 1000 players for a tournament for a skill game like 10 cards rummy?

edit:
I think it is a question of the prize amount
link to original post

You need a place to hold the tournament, people to run it, and people to deal. You need security and cashiers, people to register and assign seats., etc.. You need to publicize the event. Having 1000 people pay $1 to enter, with 100% of the money being returned means there is zero money to pay for all of that, not to mention you make no profit.

Quote: billryan

Quote: seven

Quote: SOOPOO

You are correct in your zero EV and +EV assumptions.

I’d bet you can’t get 1000 players…!
link to original post

thank you for the confirmation. I am glad I am right.

why do you think I will not get 1000 players for a tournament for a skill game like 10 cards rummy?

edit:
I think it is a question of the prize amount
link to original post

You need a place to hold the tournament, people to run it, and people to deal. You need security and cashiers, people to register and assign seats., etc.. You need to publicize the event. Having 1000 people pay $1 to enter, with 100% of the money being returned means there is zero money to pay for all of that, not to mention you make no profit.
link to original post

thanks also to you for your input

I forgot to mention that the game will be an App or a Dapp or on a website.

right now I am not talking about profit as there will be ways to put ads and earn some. but for now that is not the point.

if I would earn enough with ads I could give higher cash prizes and maybe even $1500
the 1000 participant tournament was just an example.

cheers

edit:

I forgot to mention that rummy is a very popular skill game all over the world

Quote: seven

<snip>To play, the cards are shuffled and you are dealt 10 cards. You draw one card from the deck and discard one card from your hand. Your goal is to create a Meld until all 10 cards are Meld and you discard the eleventh card.
<snip>
In the discard pile we might have 0 cards, 1 card, 2 cards, 3 cards, and so on. <snip>link to original post

seven,

How can the discard pile finish at zero if the player is required to draw a card before checking for Meld?

If the potential players can check the leader board before playing, I doubt anyone would want to play if the leading score is very small, say 3 or less.

Dog Hand

Quote: DogHand

Quote: seven

<snip>To play, the cards are shuffled and you are dealt 10 cards. You draw one card from the deck and discard one card from your hand. Your goal is to create a Meld until all 10 cards are Meld and you discard the eleventh card.
<snip>
In the discard pile we might have 0 cards, 1 card, 2 cards, 3 cards, and so on. <snip>link to original post

seven,

How can the discard pile finish at zero if the player is required to draw a card before checking for Meld?

If the potential players can check the leader board before playing, I doubt anyone would want to play if the leading score is very small, say 3 or less.

Dog Hand
link to original post

Hey Dog Hand

Very good points! I love this forum because there are so many smart people here.

I did not explain how you can have zero on the discard pile, and I am glad you pointed that out.

Suppose you are dealt a complete hand, all of which are melding, so you do not need to draw a card, which means you have a winning hand and zero on the discard pile and on the leaderboard.

Answer to your 2nd point
the tournament will only start once we have 1000 participants or whatever number we decide before the tournament starts. it could be 100 or whatever.
Once the tournament starts, each player can play as many games as he wants during the 24-hour tournament, so he always knows when to stop or when it makes sense to keep playing to reach a prize position on the leaderboard. The $1000 prize for a 1000 player tournament was just an example, which means we can give many prizes like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. and split the $1000 prize pool in this example accordingly.

I hope I could answer your questions
cheers

edit:
maybe I should add one point that during a tournament as a player can play as many games during the tourney that if he gets dealt a bad hand he can cancel the game and start a new one. means he will not lose time with bad hands. I hope it makes sense

Hello Guys

I hope you are all fine. I am still working on this game idea :)

I have a question

User @DogHand asked me

seven,

How can the discard pile finish at zero if the player is required to draw a card before checking for Meld?

My answer was

Suppose you are dealt a complete hand, all of which are melding, so you do not need to draw a card, which means you have a winning hand and zero on the discard pile and on the leaderboard.

My question for you guys
what is the chance that a player gets a winning hand dealt with a 52 cards deck ( no joker)?

Cheers

Quote: seven

Hello Guys
<snip>
My question for you guys
what is the chance that a player gets a winning hand dealt with a 52 cards deck ( no joker)?

Cheers
link to original post

A quote from Rulemonger:

"... gives us 136,694 hands that make Gin. Dividing by the number of 10-card hands…

136,694 / 15,820,024,220

shows the odds of being dealt Gin to be approximately 1 in 115,733 or 0.000864%."

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Quote: DogHand

Quote: seven

Hello Guys
<snip>
My question for you guys
what is the chance that a player gets a winning hand dealt with a 52 cards deck ( no joker)?

Cheers
link to original post

A quote from Rulemonger:

"... gives us 136,694 hands that make Gin. Dividing by the number of 10-card hands…

136,694 / 15,820,024,220

shows the odds of being dealt Gin to be approximately 1 in 115,733 or 0.000864%."

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
link to original post

thank you very much! and for the link to Rulemonger, this was very helpful!

cheers