Payner12
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January 2nd, 2023 at 10:16:48 AM permalink
Hi, everyone. Im new to craps. What is mathematically better for me. Lets sayI i bet \$100 on the pass line and the point has been established. Is it better to back it up with another \$100 or do the max 2x with \$200? Its less loss in the long run backing it up with 2x? THANK YOU!
ChumpChange
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January 2nd, 2023 at 10:31:28 AM permalink
How much were you planning on losing?
I think the regulars here would say make it a \$25 PL with 3X, 4X, 5X odds for a \$25 table.
Other people would say you're just wasting time waiting for pass line points to hit, so place bet the inside numbers and press them on a win. Might start with \$30 per number.

It's a new year, my net win is \$0 so far.
odiousgambit
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January 2nd, 2023 at 10:54:45 AM permalink
Quote: Payner12

Hi, everyone. Im new to craps. What is mathematically better for me. Lets sayI i bet \$100 on the pass line and the point has been established. Is it better to back it up with another \$100 or do the max 2x with \$200? Its less loss in the long run backing it up with 2x? THANK YOU!

This has two things about it:

* it has been said that the free odds do not help you win more money. This is true

* it has been said that you are better off betting as little as possible on the line bet, and as much as possible on the odds bet. This is true.

Now, that these two things seem contradictory has led to all kinds of arguments. To solve the contradiction, you have to determine what is a comfortable bet for you. If it is only the table minimum, say \$15, then you do not gain an advantage by adding free odds bets to that. Meanwhile you are likely to lose more than you would be comfortable with if you did add them. [actually you should not play craps if you are only comfortable with the minimum bet]

If you are comfortable with a \$300 bet, as you seem to indicate, then if the max allowed is 2x, then you've got it right. Put \$100 on the line and add the 2x odds bet.

The thing I would question is, are you really comfortable with the \$300? or are you thinking that it will be OK because the free odds help you win more money. Not too many players are good with a \$300 bet.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MrV
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January 2nd, 2023 at 11:49:38 AM permalink
Taking free odds can lead to quicker, greater wins but the opposite is also correct.

Free odds add increased volatility to the game, a thing many crapsters relish.

Few casino experiences are as thrilling as a big win, nor as painful as a big loss.
"What, me worry?"
Dieter
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January 2nd, 2023 at 12:01:01 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

It's a new year, my net win is \$0 so far.

May the cards fall in your favor.
Payner12
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January 2nd, 2023 at 12:29:27 PM permalink
At my local they have 6x multiplier to earn rewards credits(which you can use as free play, but its not the weekly free play) Then at their sister casino when you go there those reward credits(again, not weekly free play) are tripled. So 18X. I am their top tier player member. I'm also 7 star. So I'm not a small time gambler. I was under the impression RTP for playing the pass line was about 98.5% . So again maximizing my RTP would be to 2x from my original bet after point is established? Or dont back it up at all??? My pass line bet would be consistently \$100 How much I bet doesn't change the statistics. THANK YOU
odiousgambit
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January 2nd, 2023 at 1:00:56 PM permalink
Quote: Payner12

At my local they have 6x multiplier to earn rewards credits(which you can use as free play, but its not the weekly free play) Then at their sister casino when you go there those reward credits(again, not weekly free play) are tripled. So 18X. I am their top tier player member. I'm also 7 star. So I'm not a small time gambler. I was under the impression RTP for playing the pass line was about 98.5% .

correct. The expected value [EV] of that \$100 bet is then about -\$1.50, notice the minus sign. This is unalterable by the free odds bet, it is always about -1.50

Quote:

So again maximizing my RTP would be to 2x from my original bet after point is established? Or dont back it up at all??? My pass line bet would be consistently \$100 How much I bet doesn't change the statistics. THANK YOU

we are back again to the the issue of why you are adding free odds bets. Is it to help you win more money? It will not do that.

If, however, you decide you are actually comfortable betting \$300, want to bet that amount in fact, you should not put \$300 down on the line bet instead of the \$100. Stay with the \$100 and put down \$200 on the free odds. If you had put down 300 on the line bet, 3 times the expected loss is what you get, about \$4.50. With \$200 on the odds, your total \$300 is still only generating an EV of -1.50

As has been pointed out, the ups and downs, the variance of your betting, will experience much more in the way of wild swings with the odds bets. Sooner or later you will realize this is what it's about, and nothing much to do with your original thought of what's best to win more money.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Payner12
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January 2nd, 2023 at 1:26:01 PM permalink
The reason I'm playing is not to earn money on craps. Its to maximize free play(18x) and more entries into the big money weekly drawing with more entries because of playing craps. I want the highest RTP % So final answer is to back up the original \$100 wager with \$200(2x) or don't back up at all? THANK YOU!
unJon
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January 2nd, 2023 at 2:51:54 PM permalink
Quote: Payner12

The reason I'm playing is not to earn money on craps. Its to maximize free play(18x) and more entries into the big money weekly drawing with more entries because of playing craps. I want the highest RTP % So final answer is to back up the original \$100 wager with \$200(2x) or don't back up at all? THANK YOU!

Do you get free play credit for the backup odds credits? If so, the. Max RTP is to bet them. If not, then no reason to bet the backup \$200 odds unless you like free variance. And it doesnt sound like you do, since you are just credit grinding.

Many casinos give 0 comp credit for odds bets.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
UP84
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January 2nd, 2023 at 5:11:14 PM permalink
Quote: Payner12

....Do you get free play credit for the backup odds credits? link to original post

Usually NOT!
Payner12
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January 2nd, 2023 at 6:26:26 PM permalink
No free play credit for back up. But reward credits for the bets of course. I am credit grinding.
UP84
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January 2nd, 2023 at 6:43:43 PM permalink
Quote: Payner12

No free play credit for back up. But reward credits for the bets of course. I am credit grinding.

I very much doubt players get any kind of tier credits, rewards, free play, promo multipliers, or any kind of comps/credits, whatever you want to call it, etc. etc. for free odds bets in craps.
Last edited by: UP84 on Jan 2, 2023
Mental
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January 2nd, 2023 at 9:12:07 PM permalink
Quote: UP84

Quote: Payner12

No free play credit for back up. But reward credits for the bets of course. I am credit grinding.

I very much doubt players get any kind of tier credits, rewards, free play, promo multipliers, or any kind of comps/credits, whatever you want to call it, etc. etc. for free odds bets in craps.

I only played e-craps when I played craps, and I was always playing for points or free-play multipliers. I always got comps, points, and free play for the odds bets on e-craps. The 3/4/5 odds reduced the house edge by 4/5ths compared to the pass line bet. Table craps never gives credit for the odds bet. If you can get your odds action treated the same as the line action, then it is a huge benefit to take the odds. Otherwise, it just adds variance and someone grinding for comp/points should just ignore it. When it was a hybrid craps game with a human shooter but electronic betting, I still got rated on the odds bets.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Ace2
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January 2nd, 2023 at 9:45:14 PM permalink
Quote: Payner12

Hi, everyone. Im new to craps. What is mathematically better for me. Lets sayI i bet \$100 on the pass line and the point has been established. Is it better to back it up with another \$100 or do the max 2x with \$200? Its less loss in the long run backing it up with 2x? THANK YOU!

Taking odds will have no long-term effect on your results. However, 1x odds will (roughly) double your variance and 2x will triple your variance

If 2x is the max at your casino, instead of betting \$100 on the pass line (only) you should bet \$50 on the pass and take 2x odds. This will give you about the same amount of total action yet halve your expected loss while increasing your SD by 50%.
Its all about making that GTA
ChumpChange
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January 2nd, 2023 at 11:21:23 PM permalink
Or bet \$25 on the PL with \$50 odds and make 3 Come bets of the same. You might have a better chance of winning big money with more numbers up.
Mental
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January 3rd, 2023 at 5:02:05 AM permalink
Quote: UP84

Quote: Payner12

....Do you get free play credit for the backup odds credits? link to original post

Usually NOT!

Payner has not said whether he is playing craps at a table or on an electronic console. From hints in his post, I am guessing that he is playing e-craps and then the answer is that the odds bets usually earn credits at exactly the same rate as all other bets. It would be stupid to pass up a bet with a zero house edge that yields free credits. Some commenters are giving advice without knowing the critical detail about the playing conditions.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
ChumpChange
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January 3rd, 2023 at 6:07:04 AM permalink
My local e-craps machine gives points for odds bets, but the main computer doesn't count odds bets for their tier points and they don't add up on my card towards a burger purchase. The points I see when I cash out just give me a rough estimate to the nearest \$6 how much coin-in I had for the session including odds bets. I suspect there's a tier point skimmer in the system somewhere. I haven't pinpointed it to anything like a 50 tier point limit per hour or something.
If I was playing tables, I just get what points I'm given and there's no way to know how they figured it.

If he doesn't want to play odds, he could put \$90 on the PB 6 & 8 in addition to \$100 on the PL to run up the points. I'd press the PB 6 or 8 for \$30 on each win per shooter. I don't know what the max bet is, it could be \$5,000
Mission146
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January 3rd, 2023 at 6:22:28 AM permalink
Quote: Payner12

Hi, everyone. Im new to craps. What is mathematically better for me. Lets sayI i bet \$100 on the pass line and the point has been established. Is it better to back it up with another \$100 or do the max 2x with \$200? Its less loss in the long run backing it up with 2x? THANK YOU!

Let's start with the basic premise that you are absolutely determined to bet \$100 on the Pass Line for each trial.

The notion that it is, "Less loss in the long run backing it up with 2x," is not correct. Your expected loss will be \$1.41 for every Pass Line bet you make, regardless of whether or not you back those bets up with Odds.

Odds bets have an expected value of \$0.00, unless they count towards your comps (varies by House), in which case they have a slightly positive expected value, but only on the back end. Because Odds have an expected result of \$0.00, in the long run, they do not change your expected loss whatsoever.

Okay, so what do Odds change?

They change your expected loss relative to your total action, which is an important distinction. Isolating one specific decision, if you bet \$100 on the Pass Line and there is a Point Number (2/3 to occur) and you put \$200 in Odds behind it, then your expected loss on the bet will be \$1.41 relative to \$300 in total bet as opposed to \$100 in total bet.

Now, the probability of there being a point number is .6666666667, which means that the expected amount of Odds, per Come Out roll, is:

200 * .666666666667 = \$133.33

In other words, for every \$100 Pass Line bet you would make, you would expect to have \$233.33 in total action. \$133.33 of this expected action would have no House Edge and the other \$100 has an expected loss of \$1.41.

1.41/233.33 = 0.00604294347

Or 0.604294347%, approximately, becomes your new Expected Effective House Edge. Your actual Effective House Edge for those bets which do, in fact, get Odds is:

1.41/300 = .0047

Or 0.47%, approximately, but this does not always happen.

Either way, none of that changes your expected loss in \$\$\$ terms as it will all relate back to the amount bet on the PL.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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January 3rd, 2023 at 6:25:02 AM permalink
Quote: UP84

Quote: Payner12

No free play credit for back up. But reward credits for the bets of course. I am credit grinding.

I very much doubt players get any kind of tier credits, rewards, free play, promo multipliers, or any kind of comps/credits, whatever you want to call it, etc. etc. for free odds bets in craps.

Generally not, but some casinos do. This question was asked specifically about Caesars in Las Vegas, once upon a time, and I called and spoke to a pit supervisor who told me yes. Whether or not that is still true, I do not know. I do believe that there are a non-zero number of casinos who will factor this into your average bet for rating purposes, but maybe not.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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January 3rd, 2023 at 7:43:05 AM permalink
I have several times in my day been over-comped playing Craps, enough to make it +EV ... unfortunately with indications there's a limit as to what to expect. That over-comping is not in the casino game plan of course, so how does it happen?

Tipping is my theory. You do that and the crew wants you back. If you never bet the free odds, though, it's going to be hard to work up an average bet that you're making that isn't factual ... it would take some willingness to flat out make it up. However, if you bet the free odds, now an average bet like that isn't such a big lie. The casino is going to figure for the betting you do about 2% HE it seems, meanwhile you're actually only working against something quite a bit less than 1%. They know it all will be under the radar as long as your betting isn't notable for any other reason. If you don't tip, don't expect this.

That's my theory on how your free odds bets can get in on being figured for comps. I can't prove that, but it does happen for some reason, I'll listen to other theories.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Ace2
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January 3rd, 2023 at 8:46:31 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Let's start with the basic premise that you are absolutely determined to bet \$100 on the Pass Line for each trial.

You can stop reading right there since the starting basic premise is faulty.

A normal bettor thinks in terms of how much total action he wants to bet on a shooter. If he plans on taking 2X odds, then he knows hell be increasing his PL bet by two units for two of every three decisions. Therefore, his initial passline bet represents 3/7ths of his total action. On \$100 total action that means \$40 or \$50 on the passline (using round numbers). On a \$40 PL bet plus 2x odds, he will be paying less than half the vig as a \$100 PL bettor for the about the same total betting action
Its all about making that GTA
unJon
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January 3rd, 2023 at 8:57:59 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: Mission146

Let's start with the basic premise that you are absolutely determined to bet \$100 on the Pass Line for each trial.

You can stop reading right there since the starting basic premise is faulty.

A normal bettor thinks in terms of how much total action he wants to bet on a shooter. If he plans on taking 2X odds, then he knows hell be increasing his PL bet by two units for two of every three decisions. Therefore, his initial passline bet represents 3/7ths of his total action. On \$100 total action that means \$40 or \$50 on the passline (using round numbers). On a \$40 PL bet plus 2x odds, he will be paying less than half the vig as a \$100 PL bettor for the about the same total betting action

You both need to read the OPs posts in this thread where he clarified he is only playing for credits, comps and free play hustling. So the gating item is whether the odds bets count towards those items.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Payner12
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January 3rd, 2023 at 10:06:25 AM permalink
Sorry, it is E-CRAPS
Mental
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January 3rd, 2023 at 11:25:24 AM permalink
Quote: Payner12

Sorry, it is E-CRAPS

I guessed that you were talking e-craps. Have you tested whether you are getting rated for the odds bets? Be aware that CZR casinos sometimes show a countdown and give points on the screen, but then they adjust the session total after your session ends. I actually have seen it where CZR got this adjustment wrong and increased the points earned relative to the amount shown on the machine! Too bad there was a cap on the point multiplier days.

You can get an edge straight off the top on some e-craps machines with 3/4/5 odds. The machine needs to be configured the right way and you have to force the locked bets to be returned to you.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
DJTeddyBear
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January 3rd, 2023 at 12:34:01 PM permalink
25/30 years ago, at one of my first times playing craps, I learned a very valuable lesson.

I had been betting \$10 on the line and \$10 odds whenever someone else was shooting. When it was my turn to shoot, I bet \$25 plus \$25. After two passes like that, the player next to me suggested I bet \$10 plus \$40. Same \$50, right? Except when it hit and I got paid so much more, it was like a new world opened for me.

In other words, you should always bet the minimum on the line with max odds, unless the max odds allowed was less than you intended.

In your case, since it seems like you're OK with about \$200 in odds, if you're at a typical 3x/4x/5x table, you should bet \$50 on the line, then \$150/\$200/\$250 in odds.

Of course, for some people, betting the max odds even with a minimum line bet is more than they prefer to bet. That's a whole separate problem. For those people (myself included), I suggest ignoring the line bet entirely when not shooting, and just make place bets. After all, place bets are kinda like a below table limit put bet with maximum odds.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/  Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
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January 3rd, 2023 at 2:24:42 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: Payner12

Sorry, it is E-CRAPS

I guessed that you were talking e-craps. Have you tested whether you are getting rated for the odds bets? Be aware that CZR casinos sometimes show a countdown and give points on the screen, but then they adjust the session total after your session ends. I actually have seen it where CZR got this adjustment wrong and increased the points earned relative to the amount shown on the machine! Too bad there was a cap on the point multiplier days.

You can get an edge straight off the top on some e-craps machines with 3/4/5 odds. The machine needs to be configured the right way and you have to force the locked bets to be returned to you.

I've seen it happen before, but it wouldn't shock me if they were all fixed now. Once upon a time, on point multiplier days, there was at least one casino where you could play positive Bubble Craps right off the top.

The normal point system worked out to 0.2% returned in convertible to Free Play there, but the 10x multiplier times would make that a full 2%. The same was true of three VP paytables they had, but they've since changed those.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Payner12